{ Ramanand Sagar's Ramayan & Shri Krishna AT#1 } - Page 38

Originally posted by: ShivangBuch

Welcome to both the new members.

Well Janaki. I always think RS R is better in terms of perfection than RS SK. In fact, Ramayan is my favourite purely because of its near perfection of direction and SK is my favourite because of its depth of spiritual concepts and devotion rather than perfection. I agree with you when you say SK's direction is great upto Dwarika nirman, but then again considering even story upto Dwarika nirman primarily directed by RSji himself, I think perfection of direction (RSji vs RSji) of Ramayan is better than SK in terms of the flow of the storyline (Due to the epic itself being a fluent story but then it's a compilation of all sources and it's a great compilation).

Originally posted by: JanakiRaghunath

Yes, I agree that when you list it like that, the flow of story in Ramayan was superior to Krishna, but like you also acknowledged, Krishna leela has various sources so RSji must have had far more difficulty compiling events that would please everyone. For example, Nand knowing the secret of Krishna is debatable, because I've read two sources that say different things. One says he knew and one says he did not, so RSji must have chosen the one where he did not. It's all just a matter of which source he used, because he compiled not only Valmiki Ramayan and RCM in Ramayan, but other sources also, right?

Now that you also acknowledge that both were the compilation of various sources, the point to see then is the consistency of characterization and setting of events. In Ramayan, no character (other than Ram during Agnipariksha) becomes inconsistent in terms of its approach or nature or behaviour despite different scenes taken from different sources. We don't feel ever that RSji has compiled different scenes or incidents from multiple sources just except one scene. In SK, concept of Golok from Brahmavaivarta Puran parallel with predominant Shrimad Bhagwat and plenty of scattered leelas make it very obvious that multiple sources have actually been used and also many things look to be interpolation or interpretations or imaginations by RSji himself whereas in Ramayan, everything looks to be authentic purely by the way it is directed (irrespective whether everything is authentic or not in either or both the serials).

Also, about RadhaKrishna's free behavior during Holi, that's how I kind of characterize them...to me, Radha is different from Rukmini though I consider both of them Lakshmi's avatars, because Rukmini was supposed to similar to Sita in conduct, whereas Radha was more energetic, freer, and also prone to jealousy at times when it came to the gopis. Radha and Krishna's relationship was supposed to test the boundaries of the society they lived in, and even during those times many people criticized them and talked bad about them. I like how RSji portrayed Radha, because he took the risk of portraying her as a bit bold, which not many people did back then, but in doing so I think he caught her character most accurately.

I don't have problem with Radha-Krishna's free behaviour shown or Radha's bold approach (which in fact Radha herself contradicts when she says to Krishna that she is afraid of the society) but the characterization of Radha's parents in this context (it's very difficult to judge how they would react and how they were - I mean it pretty much seems to be RSji's own portrayal rather than any source based). Moreover, geographically location of Gokul is on the opposite side of Mathura and in SK, they have shown continuously Gokul only all throughout and nothing like Nand Ganv or stay at Vrindavan (Vrindavan is only shown as a jungle) and nothing like incident of wolves attacking the village (both Nand ganv and Vrindavan are closer to Barsana to be able to meet frequently). Of course that's RSji's interpretation because nobody knows the truth but then still Gokul doesn't change in the serial right from Nand-Yashoda's entry till Krishna's departure or even perhaps till Uddhav's visit. That's another strange addition in the list.

Anyway, I do agree that the flow of stoy is more perfect in Ramayan, but directing SK had to be more difficult and I love how RSji managed.

That's for sure. I have no disagreement with this. You consider the challenge factor which I don't. That's the only difference. I am just comparing the two creations in absolute sense irrespective of the fact on what origin they were based and how tough task relatively was involved.

When it comes to discrepancies in Ramayan, it's true that Aranya Kand had no mention of Chhaya Sita which would have made the flow of the story better, but I also kind of like that there wasn't, because if viewers are shown that real Sita never got kidnapped, the suffering she underwent at Lanka would not have had the same effect.😳 People would have watched everything in a detached manner because they would know it's not real Sita who is suffering, and that would prevent them from learning some very important lessons from Sita's character, like patience, virtue, and fortitude.

I agree. But then again the concept of Chhaya Sita itself is tough to understand. It is just that Chhaya Sita was not Sita's original firelike pure body (which Ravan couldn't touch) but Sita's virtues and character were still all the same and her feelings, sufferings, pains, tolerance, mind, would all have been the same or were also felt by actual Sita with Agnidev - that also could be the possibility. So we never know how to analyze this.

Also, one thing I am still confused about is why RSji did not show Uttarkand as per Valmiki Ramayan. RCM did not have Uttarkand originally, but as per Valmiki's Ramayan Sita never took up vanvaas on her own. I never heard of this story in any source of Ramayan so I always wondered whether RSji made a blunder in his almost accurate story in writing a bit of fiction, because he was apprehensive that people would not accept a Ram who exiled Sita, though that is what happened in all versions of Uttarkand.

I know we had this discussion before and you said you consider Ramayan only uptil Ram's Rajyabhishek, but I don't think we can ignore RS's Uttarkand, because unlike the latter portion of SK he did direct all of Uttarkand himself. It's no different from Ramayan, and I've always been curious from which source he got this story, because I find it hard to believe that he could have tampered with such an important part of Uttarkand. It's just not like him at all.

I know I have not considered Uttarkand story once again even though it was directed by RSji himself primarily unlike SK's later part. But again that was not originally intended by him and it was produced afterwards as a separate creation mentally. Like all movie sequels of Harry Potter are considered separate creations for comparison. We also consider Mahabharat Katha separate from BRC's original Mahabharat. And more than anything, the reason for not considering Uttarkand personally is that I haven't watched it completely even once nor do I have any motivation to watch it despite RSji directing it.

Originally posted by: ShivangBuch

Replying to earlier post - the part that I forgot to address and reply to. Yes I have watched Vikram Vetaal and did enjoy quite a few episodes of it and remember also few of those. But I haven't watched all of them and also not watched how it ends.

I don't think we can consider RS's Uttarkand simialr to BRC's Mahabharat Katha, because the latter was just a compilation of stories of other characters in MB, whereas Uttarkand was a part of Ramayan itself, the last chapter which we cannot possibly ignore since it completes Shri Ram and Sita Maiyya's story. Ramayan is incomplete without Uttarkand, whereas BRC's Mahabharat had a good closure without Mahabharat Katha. I think you should give RSji's Uttarkand a try. You'd like it a lot because of its sprititual lessons and also moralistic life lessons.

Originally posted by: JanakiRaghunath

I think in general we agree, but the only point I'd like to make is that one of the reasons Ramayan was so fluid is that most sources, whether it be Valmiki, RCM, Adhyatma, or Ananda Ramayan, have the basic story being the same. While being very beautiful and spiritual, Ramayan is a relatively simple story and there aren't many discrepancies amongst sources when it comes to basic storyline, but with Shri Krishna, Brahma Vaivarta Purana and Bhagawatham have a lot of differences, and many people who ardently follow one consider the other "inaccurate". I know you, I, and most others in this forum take many sources as guide for God's leelas, but I've seen a lot of narrow-minded people too who stick to just one source. With Ramayan, it is easy to work around that as long as main storyline is not tampered, whereas even main storyline differs when it comes to Shri Krishan, so I appreciate RS for directing Shri Krishna in such a way that it was interesting, accurate, and spiritual. Because RSK had to be more difficult, I consider it a bit superior to Ramayan when we compare both because I see more of RSji's hard work there. But in terms of the story's flow, RSR was better, yes.

100%. We agree in general for sure. No disagreement. Only the definition of 'Perfect' was subjective and factors considered were different. SK was far far tough and great effort by RSji. Not just BVP and SB, there were plenty of small sources too used by RSji - poetries of saints, Garg Sanhita etc - the list of sources shown in the title of SK is very looong.

P.S. One more addition in the list of flaw in SK - Shalya. Shalya in Jarasandh army. That should be Shaalv. That seems to be big miss by RSji while finalizing the script.

I like your interpretation of the chhaya Sita concept. Even I'd like to think that Chhaya Sita was not just a mere shadow, but a part of Devi Sita herself. The physical form of Sita may have been hidden with Agnidev, but I think chhaya Sita, or the spiritual part, was still a part of Sitaji, just a shadow form. I don't like to think that she was all an illusion, because then I find it hard to learn something from her troubles at Lanka, when they never affected her in reality.

Yes. It could be like a meditating man. Man meditating at one place and his sookshma sharir or subtle body is somewhere else and the man's mind is continuously involved in or meditating on that subtle body and the actions-reactions of that subtle body are guided by the same mind and the same mind feels all the experiences by that subtle body. Like experiences in our dream state of consciousness.

I don't think we can consider RS's Uttarkand simialr to BRC's Mahabharat Katha, because the latter was just a compilation of stories of other characters in MB, whereas Uttarkand was a part of Ramayan itself, the last chapter which we cannot possibly ignore since it completes Shri Ram and Sita Maiyya's story. Ramayan is incomplete without Uttarkand, whereas BRC's Mahabharat had a good closure without Mahabharat Katha. I think you should give RSji's Uttarkand a try. You'd like it a lot because of its sprititual lessons and also moralistic life lessons.😳😳

I have given it a try. In fact, I have watched Luv Kush part multiple times and earlier part scattered in pieces (so I must have watched 80-90% of the serial but not in a single sitting and in a continuous flow and also can't recall or guess which event would come after which event or which event would come in which episode). For me, RamSita happy ending story is the end of the story since emotionally I am just like Tulsidas-RSji over here. Both originally intended not to include it despite there was a purpose of the incarnation in that story too. That story part is too tough to grasp for general mass correctly and for those who can take it positively still give pity or irritation feeling for the subjects of Ayodhya rather than for RamSita. And Harry Potter movies are also continuous story of previous movies. Still we rate and compare them as separate. The fact remains that Ramayan was over after Rajyabhishek. RSji continued it as a separate serial due to public demand only. It's a fact and that fact also we can't ignore. I have watched the serial when it was originally telecast so for me Uttarkand will naturally and always remain to be a separate serial and creation.

I also have not completed Vikram aur Betaal despite having the DVDs. To tell you the truth, though some episodes were good, a lot were boring too and the show has not grabbed my interest like Ramayan or Shri Krishna.🤔 Though many actors were from Ramayan, they weren't very good in Vikram aur Betaal and there was a lot of underaction or overaction in many of the episodes. I only completed half the series.

Yes definitely. It's nowhere near R or SK and that's understandble because that was produced very early and it doesn't involve our God's stories. But Vikram Vetal stories themselves being very interesting, the collection of all stories with known faces of actors still is fine enough to watch. Moreover, I like the simplicity of sets and background so compared to recent Sagar Production's (Sagar Art or Sagar Pictures whatever) new Vikram Vetaal with continuous drum-metal in the backgrounds and lightening flashes and slide transitions on the screen striking in the eyes needlessly creating headache and disturbance (in all modern day mythos gaudiness), I would always prefer the old one.

Originally posted by: ShivangBuch

100%. We agree in general for sure. No disagreement. Only the definition of 'Perfect' was subjective and factors considered were different. SK was far far tough and great effort by RSji. Not just BVP and SB, there were plenty of small sources too used by RSji - poetries of saints, Garg Sanhita etc - the list of sources shown in the title of SK is very looong. Yes, perhaps he should have stuck to just one or two sources, like with Ramayan. Even Ramayan listed many sources, but most of it was just VR or RCM, right? With Krishna, if RSji had limited himself to one or two sources, it may have made the storytelling easier and smoother. I think he may have tried to pile too much on his plate, and while the product was excellent in itself, it was not flawless like Ramayan. There were some loop-hopes and inaccuracies here and there. But to this day it has been the best Shri Krishna based serial so I'd say he succeeded pretty well. I like it better than BRC's MB too because the actors are closer to my heart and Ravindra Jain's music always makes me feel emotional and closer to God.

P.S. One more addition in the list of flaw in SK - Shalya. Shalya in Jarasandh army. That should be Shaalv. That seems to be big miss by RSji while finalizing the script. I wouldn't know this because my knowledge on the battle scenes of Dwapar Yuga are so poor.😕😆 But I'll take your word for it, lol.

Yes. It could be like a meditating man. Man meditating at one place and his sookshma sharir or subtle body is somewhere else and the man's mind is continuously involved in or meditating on that subtle body and the actions-reactions of that subtle body are guided by the same mind and the same mind feels all the experiences by that subtle body. Like experiences in our dream state of consciousness. Yes, that makes sense, but some people also refer to Chhaya Sita as "maya Sita" as in...she was completely an illusion and was actually an incarnation of Yogmaya. Adhyatma Ramayana and Ramcharitmanas, which are the two versions that have this story, do not say it was Sitaji's emotional state or dream state that was taken by Ravan. Her entirety left with Agnidev while an illusion stayed in her place. Often, I feel confused why Valmiki Ramayan (which is also very great) and Ramcharitmanas differ so greatly in this story, but someone who was once giving a discourse on Ramayan near where I live said that Ramayan is not limited to just this kalpa. It happened in every kalpa and the 14 sources we have of Ramayan may be the story of a Ramayan in each kalpa. This man said Valmiki Ramayana was the story that happened in the kalpa we are living in right now, whereas Tulsidas's Ramayan happened in the previous kalpa which is more spiritual than present kalpa. I don't know how true that is, but if it's true then all sources are accurate. If not, then I guess it's up to us to believe what we want to believe, in which case I think I prefer Valmiki Ramayan's version of Sitaji's haran, because it helps me have faith in times of trouble, but RCM's version is also respect-worthy and sometimes, I prefer to believe that when I like to think that God planned everything before coming down as Ramji. It's confusing...

I have given it a try. In fact, I have watched Luv Kush part multiple times and earlier part scattered in pieces (so I must have watched 80-90% of the serial but not in a single sitting and in a continuous flow and also can't recall or guess which event would come after which event or which event would come in which episode). For me, RamSita happy ending story is the end of the story since emotionally I am just like Tulsidas-RSji over here. That is very sweet.☺️ I smiled when I read this sentence of yours. I feel like giving you a hug.🤗 Both originally intended not to include it despite there was a purpose of the incarnation in that story too. That story part is too tough to grasp for general mass correctly and for those who can take it positively still give pity or irritation feeling for the subjects of Ayodhya rather than for RamSita. And Harry Potter movies are also continuous story of previous movies. Still we rate and compare them as separate. The fact remains that Ramayan was over after Rajyabhishek. RSji continued it as a separate serial due to public demand only. It's a fact and that fact also we can't ignore. I have watched the serial when it was originally telecast so for me Uttarkand will naturally and always remain to be a separate serial and creation. I can understand why you consider it a separate serial, but the way I look at it, I see the original Ramayan as Bal Kand-Yudh Kand, and I dont' feel satisfied when I think of it like that...because the story is incomplete, and just by ignoring Uttarkand we cannot give Ramayan the happy ending we'd like. I am happy RSji took Uttarkand, because if there was no Uttarkand I would never have been 100% satisfied with his serial. That kanda of Ramayan has always been close to my heart since I was a small kid, I don't know why.😳 I watched movies based on Uttarkand and loved the characters of Luv Kush, so when I saw RSR for the first time and it ended with Rajyabhishek, I was in tears because the story was not complete. It was not a proper closure for me though it was a happy "ending".😭 But then I searched online and saw that indeed there was an Uttarkand, and I was sooo happy. I know both are "separate" serials in themselves, but Uttarkand completes the story so for me, it's part of the original show itself.

Yes definitely. It's nowhere near R or SK and that's understandble because that was produced very early and it doesn't involve our God's stories. But Vikram Vetal stories themselves being very interesting, the collection of all stories with known faces of actors still is fine enough to watch. Moreover, I like the simplicity of sets and background so compared to recent Sagar Production's (Sagar Art or Sagar Pictures whatever) new Vikram Vetaal with continuous drum-metal in the backgrounds and lightening flashes and slide transitions on the screen striking in the eyes needlessly creating headache and disturbance (in all modern day mythos gaudiness), I would always prefer the old one. I haven't even seen the modern day Vikram aur Betaal.😆 Actually, I like reading the stories in a book, but the problem I had with RSji's was that many of the stories were not from the original Vikramaditya series.😕 He made up a lot of the stories, and though they had morals too, they did not have the deep meaning and significance that the original Vikramaditya stories had, so that's why I lost interest. I dont' even plan to watch Sagar Arts' Vikam aur Betaal because when I was not much impressed with RS's, I doubt I'd like the newer one.

Originally posted by: JanakiRaghunath

Yes, perhaps he should have stuck to just one or two sources, like with Ramayan. Even Ramayan listed many sources, but most of it was just VR or RCM, right? With Krishna, if RSji had limited himself to one or two sources, it may have made the storytelling easier and smoother. I think he may have tried to pile too much on his plate, and while the product was excellent in itself, it was not flawless like Ramayan. There were some loop-hopes and inaccuracies here and there. But to this day it has been the best Shri Krishna based serial so I'd say he succeeded pretty well. I like it better than BRC's MB too because the actors are closer to my heart and Ravindra Jain's music always makes me feel emotional and closer to God.

Ramayan had only 6-7 Ramayan sources. SK had plenty. 20-30 may be. And that's alright what RS did. He compiled all sources because he wanted to produce Ramayan and not Tulasi Ramayan or Valmiki Ramayan. How Ramayan has influence over minds of people of different parts of the country. But Ramayans which were produced later on should have been only based on single source because otherwise you are not adding any value.

Yes, that makes sense, but some people also refer to Chhaya Sita as "maya Sita" as in...she was completely an illusion and was actually an incarnation of Yogmaya. Adhyatma Ramayana and Ramcharitmanas, which are the two versions that have this story, do not say it was Sitaji's emotional state or dream state that was taken by Ravan. Her entirety left with Agnidev while an illusion stayed in her place. Often, I feel confused why Valmiki Ramayan (which is also very great) and Ramcharitmanas differ so greatly in this story, but someone who was once giving a discourse on Ramayan near where I live said that Ramayan is not limited to just this kalpa. It happened in every kalpa and the 14 sources we have of Ramayan may be the story of a Ramayan in each kalpa. This man said Valmiki Ramayana was the story that happened in the kalpa we are living in right now, whereas Tulsidas's Ramayan happened in the previous kalpa which is more spiritual than present kalpa. I don't know how true that is, but if it's true then all sources are accurate. If not, then I guess it's up to us to believe what we want to believe, in which case I think I prefer Valmiki Ramayan's version of Sitaji's haran, because it helps me have faith in times of trouble, but RCM's version is also respect-worthy and sometimes, I prefer to believe that when I like to think that God planned everything before coming down as Ramji. It's confusing...

That kalp theory we have always been agreeing upon so there is no different thinking over here. I didn't know that it is explicitly specified in the sources that Chhaya Sita was only an illusion and that's why I was only interpreting it scientifically in my own way. If it was only an illusion created, then it was all drama not just by her but also by Ramji in pain of separation (in fact then Sita was also not Sita but Ram only creating illusion).

For me, RamSita happy ending story is the end of the story since emotionally I am just like Tulsidas-RSji over here. That is very sweet.☺️ I smiled when I read this sentence of yours. I feel like giving you a hug.🤗

😊 🤗

I can understand why you consider it a separate serial, but the way I look at it, I see the original Ramayan as Bal Kand-Yudh Kand, and I dont' feel satisfied when I think of it like that...because the story is incomplete, and just by ignoring Uttarkand we cannot give Ramayan the happy ending we'd like. I am happy RSji took Uttarkand, because if there was no Uttarkand I would never have been 100% satisfied with his serial. That kanda of Ramayan has always been close to my heart since I was a small kid, I don't know why.😳 I watched movies based on Uttarkand and loved the characters of Luv Kush, so when I saw RSR for the first time and it ended with Rajyabhishek, I was in tears because the story was not complete. It was not a proper closure for me though it was a happy "ending".😭 But then I searched online and saw that indeed there was an Uttarkand, and I was sooo happy. I know both are "separate" serials in themselves, but Uttarkand completes the story so for me, it's part of the original show itself.

😊 Here we clearly differ. I am fully satisfied with Ramayan without LavKush kand or rather don't want the latter and feel the former complete. I am happy to see the reference of LavKush in just one choupai of Tulasidas Uttarkand.😉