Time-Turner:check the 1st page right now! - Page 2

Originally posted by: tukz_REmix

1st am bitasta not bitesha😆😳...stil u had patience 2 collect dem atleast na....i dont hav dta either

Firstly sorry about ur name....😆and yeah thanks anyway....but plz DO read my post....atleast some part of it...😳

I read ur looooooooong article very carefully😊….It was quite interesting….👏How did u have such Patience??? I think u like time traveling very much! eh?😆

I think Lakshmi or Jane will be better at explaining all ur questions……😆😆😆

Can someone explain me, that HOW Harry, on the first place, manages to reach the hospital-wing, while he had been attacked by the dementors and became unconscious? Who helped Harry to reach the hospital wing?

By the way, I will say that it was 2^nd harry that saved 1^st harry along wid hermy and Ron frm the dementors…., BUT it was Snape who took them to the hospital wing and wanted to take all the credit himself…..

And secondly, can someone explain me the other question I have asked that, how did the "time-traveling-Harry" manages to get away and rescue Sirius, when the "real-Harry" or "Pre-time-traveling-Harry" is attacked by the dementors? Because Harry is actually one, so, if one Harry gets unconscious and attacked by the dementors, then isn't the other Harry also supposed to have the same CONDITION?

About this I don't knw…..it's quite confusing, BUT maybe seeing that his father did not come and seeing himself and Sirius dieing, He brought up all his strength to save the 1^st harry…. I still m CONFUSED….

How did Dumbledore, in Hagrid's hut know that time-traveling is going on?

Could he see magically see the SECOND set of Harry and Hermione out there?

Or is he some kind of SEER that he, without going any further, knew that time-traveling is going on? (Like professor Trelawney)?

Or is he also time-traveling?!

About him being a SEER definitely not. He might have been time traveling…..BUT did not show himself bcoz he wanted Harry to get the experience…and remained around so that he cud help Harry if he didn't succeed…..

I think that's all I know…maybe sum 1 else can answer the other questions….😊

Ur patience is remarkable!👏 Thanx 4 such an interesting post....😛

Meera😳

Thanks for ur reply....i am writing with ORANGE inside ur QUOTATION ok?😳

Originally posted by: Mit's113

I read ur looooooooong article very carefully😊?.It was quite interesting?.👏How did u have such Patience??? I think u like time traveling very much! eh?😆

I think Lakshmi or Jane will be better at explaining all ur questions??😆😆😆

Can someone explain me, that HOW Harry, on the first place, manages to reach the hospital-wing, while he had been attacked by the dementors and became unconscious? Who helped Harry to reach the hospital wing?

By the way, I will say that it was 2^nd harry that saved 1^st harry along wid hermy and Ron frm the dementors?. Yeah that i know... BUT it was Snape who took them to the hospital wing and wanted to take all the credit himself?.Ok,....but when was it written in the book? hAve i missed it? ok, i will go through the chapter agin!

And secondly, can someone explain me the other question I have asked that, how did the ?time-traveling-Harry? manages to get away and rescue Sirius, when the ?real-Harry? or ?Pre-time-traveling-Harry? is attacked by the dementors? Because Harry is actually one, so, if one Harry gets unconscious and attacked by the dementors, then isn?t the other Harry also supposed to have the same CONDITION?

About this I don?t knw?..it?s quite confusing, BUT maybe seeing that his father did not come and seeing himself and Sirius dieing, He brought up all his strength to save the 1^st harry?. I still m CONFUSED?.Yeah but still....if the first Harry or real Harry gets attackted by the dementors, the time travelling harry will also...isnt it?😳

?/SPAN> How did Dumbledore, in Hagrid?s hut know that time-traveling is going on?

?/SPAN> Could he see magically see the SECOND set of Harry and Hermione out there?

?/SPAN> Or is he some kind of SEER that he, without going any further, knew that time-traveling is going on? (Like professor Trelawney)?

?/SPAN> Or is he also time-traveling?!

About him being a SEER definitely not. He might have been time traveling?..BUT did not show himself bcoz he wanted Harry to get the experience?and remained around so that he cud help Harry if he didn?t succeed?..Yeah thats also what i wanted to say....i think he is the one who actually did all these...and like i wrote in the article that DD actually knew everything from the very beginning that Harry and Hermione have time-travelled and also succeeded.....

Dumbledore may have time-travelled himself, and may have gone into the future, to the point where Harry and hermione also didn't go...and maybe he kept it as a secret coz he wanted Harry/hermy to have such experience since he knew that one day they will be THE ONE TO FINISH VOLDY!

I think that?s all I know?maybe sum 1 else can answer the other questions?.😊

Ur patience is remarkable!👏 Thanx 4 such an interesting post....😛

Meera😳

Lolz I'd like to see u blushing. 😳 😆 😉 Intersesting post,will reply later.

Originally posted by: sumera siddiqui

Lolz I'd like to see u blushing. 😳 😆 😉 Intersesting post,will reply later.

😆But DO reply......bhool mat jao...😉

wow brilliant post Yaar..I Imagine the pain u must have taken to do it all so neatly and in order..good work..
I will update this post with my answers by tomorrow..I hope I can give my views on the often discussed topics satisfactorily.

Originally posted by: lucky_lakshmi

wow brilliant post Yaar..I Imagine the pain u must have taken to do it all so neatly and in order..good work..
I will update this post with my answers by tomorrow..I hope I can give my views on the often discussed topics satisfactorily.

Thanks a lot.....by tomorrow alright?😉 No more delays...😆😳

My Views:( This is a very long post Mind!😆)

THE CYCLIC THEORY (Lmao!😉)

Your Questions+Some points u mentioned: Brown.

My Answers: Bold Black.

_________________________________

Can History/Past be changed?

I think it is clear from four things JKR says in the POA that under her theory we can change history:

Hermione tells Harry that "Nobody is supposed to change time" when Harry wants to get the Invisibility Cloak. So what does this sentence implies? This sentence means that no-one is supposed to change time, BUT this does NOT mean that changing time/past/history is impossible. She does not say that changing time is impossible; she didn't say: "Nobody can change time." Thus, changing time might be possible, and it might also NOT be possible. Since J.K.R hasn't written the sentence clearly, it can have both meanings. This was the perfect place for JKR to state that "Nobody can change time" but she makes it clear that we can change time, by saying that "no-body is supposed to change time". Also note that Hermione speaks of "breaking one of the most important wizarding laws." That too must refer to changing history because if history couldn't be changed, then there would have been NO NEED of making the time-turner thing illegal. Laws are against only possible actions. It makes no sense to have a law against something you couldn't do even if you wanted to. I haven't checked the hunting laws in state, but I sure they don't say "You cannot hunt dinosaurs" — it wouldn't make any sense to have such a law since we couldn't hunt extinct animals even if we wanted to. And the same applies here: there would be no law proscribing changing time only if such change is possible.

Hermione tells Harry that McGonagall told her that "loads of [time-traveling wizards and witches] ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake". That is definitely changing history: the "earlier" wizards have been eliminated by time-travel events from the history that produced the time-traveling wizards. How can you go back in time and eliminate someone from history without changing the past/history?

Notice that the whole idea of a wizard "killing" his earlier self does not make any sense unless you can change the past. The problem is that there has to be a change in history to say that someone in the past was killed by a time-traveling wizard.

Harry says "There must be something that happened around now that Dumbledore wants us to change". Also notice that time-traveling-Harry wanted to change things by running out of the forest when he and time-traveling-Hermione were hiding there and getting the Invisibility Cloak and getting Wormtail. She had to grab and stop him. She only expressed concern about being seen, but the fact remains that Harry would have changed history. If Harry had stopped Wormtail or had just gotten the Invisibility Cloak, all the events of that evening from that point on would have changed, and he could have gotten them if Hermione had not intervened.

Dumbledore warns Harry and Hermione about being careful because time-travel's consequences are complicated and unpredictable. But if nothing changes, it does not matter whether we are careless in the past or not. If history is unchangeable, Dumbledore's comment about the consequences being unpredictable is wrong: the consequences would be completely predictable because we know precisely what will happen up to the time of the time- traveling. In fact, there is nothing to predict because we already know exactly what will happen and there is nothing we can do about it. Also, we wouldn't have to be careful since we couldn't change history even if we wanted to. For that matter, you could go back with a machine gun and shoot up the place — or you could take a nuclear bomb and nuke the place — and it wouldn't change anything because the past is "fixed" and unchangeable. Thus, Dumbledore's warning to be careful doesn't make sense unless we might accidentally or intentionally change history.

Can the above four points be explained without the past/history being changeable? If so, then how?

Now, This questions has arisen a good number of times and seldom have we arrived at an answer that can be accepted by everyone alike. So what I am going to say, may not necessarily appeal to you. If so, plz keep in mind that I am not imposing this view on anyone but this is my view alone, what appeals to my senses and my mind. No two people can be the same, can think the same way. I only endeavor to put my thoughts across well. So this is my thoughts only.

First and foremost, keep in mind, a book or a novel is means of putting your views across. Authors do that thru their books and that is what Rowling does too. Harry Potter is no gospel and so the question that should arise is rather "Does Rowling mean The Past can be Changed" and not "Can the past be changed"-IE: Simply on the basis of HP.

now, your first question was about the usage of "Supposed to" instead "Cannnot ".

See, it has been mentioned in he book very conspicuously about how DANGEROUS it is to meddle with time. Time isnt sumthing that one can play with.

Lets say, What is Done is Done. Its often said how stupid it is to lament over sumthing that hasnt gone the way u wud have liked it to in the past. Its first of all, a waste of time and leads to depression. And so, Time is precious and must be handled Judiciously (as If we dont know that already, what say?! though 'spect many of us dont really do just that, I for one dont~😊)

As for "Breaking the most important Wizarding Law"- I would rather put it as "Breaking the most important law of the nature". Wizards or lesser mortals (Muggles), we all live in the same world with sum laws of NATURE that should be mandatorily followed by BY ALL. WHat has happened has happened, and changing something what has happened, is challenging Destiny and Fate,In short making amends in the truth of nature. Absurd it may sound, for a world which is progressing so fast, This is something that should not be broken. Its a Code of Life. Wizards have the feeling they are the 'superior beings' or at least, many do and so The Wizarding Community s warned that there is no difference or privilege for them in THAT PARTICULAR RULE, Wizards or Muggles, U have to follow that. Dont mess with Time.

Now: "the whole idea of a wizard "killing" his earlier self does not make any sense unless you can change the past."

That may not be the only explanation. Imagine that u have gone back in Time. What has happened b4 is happening now too (in true sense it isnt happening Two times, but The Time Turner just helps u see from the Omniscient Third Person Perspective) But for the time being, U will excuse me for saying "happened B4" and "Happened now" Bcoz I want to make my point clear. And so , back to the point, what has happened b4, the person who has "Travelled thru time" witnesses again. Remember at this time, even if something fatal happens to this 'other you', YOU WILL DIE. Bcoz its YOU all over again, only that the First You doesn't know about this other conscience/reflection. So at the beginning, The "Original you" was ignorant abt the 'second you'. Remember, IN POA movie, Hermione throws a stone at Harry's Head and the 'Second Harry' tells her "Ouch, That Hurt". Its the same u. Both of u feel pain similarly, bcoz u are just U!

But after the Time Turner is Turned, You view matters from the second view, and not the singular view. When U exist, You Have Fear for you life. Only when u KNOW U DO, Will something happen to you that can cost your life. Imagine that the 'second You' dies. Now this Second you is U urself. So U KNOW U ARE DEAD. U are dead only if u know u are dead. so this second you DIES and that means YOU DIE. The past hasnt been altered here. The Lone difference is that, U dared to challenge the nature, and Nature gave u tit for tat and killed YOU rather. A Rule 'tried to be' Broken, a Punishment Suffered...what say? Of course this doesnt ALWAYS Happen, bcoz there are some who are duffers enough to get carried away and arenot careful.

I know this may really sound Mad, But I request you to try to THINK this way and not just 'READ' this. I am sure that will make, if not all, then a bit more sense.😊

How did Harry get into the hospital—when he has been unconscious by the dementors attacks?

OK, now here is my question: how did Harry get into the hospital wing, when he has become unconscious by the dementors attack?

As far as I can remember, the chapter "Dementor's Kiss" ends like this: that Dementors were surrounding everywhere near them, and that moment Harry realizes that he is seeing someone who looks very much familiar with him, on the other end of the river, and that moment he becomes unconscious. But in the next chapter, we see Harry to be in the hospital wing…

So, now the question comes, how did Harry get into the hospital wing? Was there someone who rescued him? If so, who is it? Dumbledore—?

Can someone explain me, that HOW Harry, on the first place, manages to reach the hospital-wing, while he had been attacked by the dementors and became unconscious? Who helped Harry to reach the hospital wing?

It was Snape Got him to the Hospital. Harry repelled off all the Dementors with his Patronus and now everyone- Hermione, Sirius, Ron and Harry were Lying Unconscious. Remember, when Harry and Hermione are watching, Snape bcums conscious again after a while and conjures stretchers and gets them all back to the castle. Its mentioned clearly in the Book.

Now, even if Harry somehow manages to come to the hospital wing, how did he manage to get pass the dementor (I'm talking about the second time, I mean the time-traveling-Harry)?

We know that after came to the hospital wing magically (after being attacked by the dementors) Harry and Hermione uses the Time-turner to go back in time. They go to the same place, and the time-turner Harry himself witnesses the "other Harry" being attacked by the dementors, (and that time he produces the patronus knowing that he had already "done it".)

But how have he done that?

If the dementors are attacking the "real Harry", it means that the "real Harry" is getting pain. So, if the "real Harry" gets pained and become unconscious, then isn't the "time-traveling-Harry" also supposed to get pain and become unconscious?

Because, we know it very well, that, in the Harry Potter and The Prisoner of Azkaban movie, it is shown that, when the "time-traveling-Hermione" threw a stone into the "real-Harry", the real Harry gets pain, but along with the real Harry, the "time-traveling-Harry" also gets pain!

So what does the above logic explains? It explains that "Harry" is actually one, whether there are "more than one" Harry in the same place, at the same time. And that is why, when the "real-Harry" gets the pain in the forehead, the Harry who has time-traveled (time-traveling-Harry) also gets the pain.

Oh No no absoluely not yaar. No person can exist on a whole as Two Different People.

The Biggest difficulty u need to overcome when u are to do something vital in an asking position is 'TO BELIEVE YOU CAN DO IT'. Often, bcoz u dont have confidence in yourself, U crumble and are unabl to succeed. Confidence can stem from experience. If u have already Done something, U can do it again. Ur Confidence is Boosted. Say, imagine that tomorrow is ur Exam. You are very tensed. Actually U have studied everything, know it all but still fear the D Day. You go off to sleep the night b4 and u have a weird dream where u are writing the exam and u have all the questions b4 ur eyes to feast upon. U know all the answers and u write them all. U wake up the next day but u vaguely remember what u saw, and dont really know if it was a 'Dream' or anything. U go to the Examination hall, and get the Q paper and imagine ur surprise when u see some very very familiar Questions (those u had incidentally chanced to see in ur Dream--which has been the result of Anticipation). U start Writing , this time confidently bcoz Boy U have done it already. U know that u know the answer. So why fear?

This is more or less the case in POA too. At the beginning (read as b4 the Time Turner was used), Harry is unable to cast a real patronus bcoz his nerves are tensed and agitated and he lacks confidence. His happy thoughts are being Sucked out of him. Confidence is a very STRONG AND HAPPY belief / thought and that is being sucked out of him. and So, THIS Harry is unable to produce one. Remember that This is the 'First harry' and so what is FIRST registered in Harry' Mind is what THIS PERSON SEES and Experiences. The Other Harry is just another reflection of this person. He realises that He CAN DO IT bcoz at the beginning he had seen Himself (which he mistook as his dad) produce a patronus and therefore is able to do something bcoz He has alreaDY done it!

The natural question that will arise now is how the 'second harry' cast it AT FIRST when he had not "already done it".

In answer to that, I wud put a question which was asked in Deathly Hallows at the Ravenclaw Tower ie: "Which came first, The Phoenix or the Fire"? The answer given is "Bcoz a circle has no beginning". Its both the same,one cannot be without the other. singularly, nothing can happen.

Similarly, Both the 'first Harry' and The 'Second Harry' are HARRY POTTER Himself. They cannot exist one at a time. They just reflect his different layers of conscience. Its all one huge circle that happens all over again and again. There is No "BEGINNING" or "ending". Everything that has happened has happened b4, We are living in a mirror world.

So, following this logic, does not the time-traveling-Harry supposed to get attacked by the dementors, along with the real Harry (who was attacked by the dementors)? Because if the time-traveling-Harry gets hurt by the stone which Hermione threw to the real-Harry (along with the real-Harry), then, isn't the time-traveling-Harry also supposed to get hurt/attacked by the dementors along with the real-Harry?

But this doesn't happen? Why? What possible explanation can you people give for why the time-traveling-Harry didn't get attacked along with the real one? And not to forget the first question that how, Harry, on the first place reached the hospital wing!

Dementors affect ur MIND. If ur mind is at the moment Flimsy and unstable, all ur good thoughts are sucked out bcoz they are shielded well. But the conscience is the one whch does that. The real reflection of Harry Conscience ie: The Second Harry can hold the effect of the Dementors off bcoz he is now full of confidence that he can do it again as he has already done it. Its sumthing, a belief, engraved in his MIND. Determination repels off Dementors. The Mental state of both are different and as Dementors affect ur Mind and not ur external Body, The second HARRY can resist them. But as for being hit by the stone, that was a Physical pain on ur skin. which mental strength can resist that?!😊

And secondly, can someone explain me the other question I have asked that, how did the "time-traveling-Harry" manages to get away and rescue Sirius, when the "real-Harry" or "Pre-time-traveling-Harry" is attacked by the dementors? Because Harry is actually one, so, if one Harry gets unconscious and attacked by the dementors, then isn't the other Harry also supposed to have the same CONDITION?

No, I think I have already Explained this indirectly above but I will surmise it up. See, The "First harry" is aaacked by Dementors. He is unable to drive them off. The Second Harry who is watching all that is Happening from another Position (at the beginning also he exists, dont confuse that. We saw it two times bcoz the need was to view from two different perspectives and it cannot be done at once) is of a different mental state from the 'first Harry'. And so this mirror Image of Harry uses the Patronus to drive the Dementors off. He cannot go and help Himself to the Hospital Wing bcoz imagine, if u see urself, U will go mad. So he waits and watches Snape regain consciousness and take himself and the others Back to the Castle. He waits till the way is Clear and then he rescues Sirius. The 'First harry' is unaware of his bcoz he is ignorant of Time Turner being Used. Only when u know it, can u believe u have done it.

Weird but Interesting facts: billions of parallel worlds are created by Hermione!

Some people argue that time-turning creates parallel worlds. If I understand correctly, under the "parallel world" scenario, all the different time-lines go on existing and not get replaced by time-travel. In one world Buckbeak is killed, but in the parallel world created by time-travel Buckbeak never died. And both worlds continue to exist.

I am not against "Parallel Universe/Multiverse" theory but at least in this case, thats not what happened or so I feel. We are dealing with only one universe here or else, it wud b really weird if JUST THE SAMe THING in the same sequence happened in the parallel world as in he world we live in. Then whats the difference b/w them? They are the Same!

I already said that this is a CYCLE OF happenings. There is no end or beginning for a Circle. Buckbeak had never been executed. He had been saved at the beginning itself by that Harry who had been through the Cycle already, or "The Second Harry" ( ofc with Hermione but I think its better to refer only to ONE person now bcoz otherwise, it will be even more difficult to grasp this theory and I will drive u mad - if I havent already done that, that is! ). The fact that he had witnessed t b4 too is shown well in the Mpovie version. We first see sum stone hotting Harry's Head, a stone which seemed to cum from nowhere. Then after sum time, after the TT is used, we see Hermione 2 throwing the Stone at Harry's Head and we realise that she had been the source of the stone which had earlier been taken as to have cum from nowhere.

The 'first Harry' who is yet to go thru it all (Or rather understand this cycle), doesnt SEE Buckbeak being executed but only HEARS the sound of the axe being lowered into something. Obviously, he took it to have been on Buckbeak's Neck. There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious Fact. Actually, that had never happened. The lone difference, I repeat, is that in POA, We (the reader) saw it twice, each time thru different Perspectives.

Dumbledore knew everything from the very beginning—? Is he some kind of seer, or he himself is using Time-Turner?

When u speak pf this "all knowing" quality of Dumbledore, One more prudent example that comes to my mind on this note is Mr Sherlock Holmes, the legendary sleuth created By Sir Arthur Conan Doyle . Those who have read the adventures of this great detective will agree with me when I say that most of the theories he settles on are as quick as intuitions but sounded firmly on logic. All u need to do is Follow the events closely and not in an excited state of Mind. Keep calm and retrace your steps/ retrace the happening. Follow them closely and universally.

I recall One dialogue of Holmes to his sidekick Watson (where he mocks Watson for having made no deductions of value from a happening)..."U 'see' it all My dear Watson, But I 'observe' it all"

Dumbledore is neither using a Time Turner nor is he a Seer. He is a very observant person and I think he often takes this Holmes Route! Dumbledore has studied Human Laws very closely and profoundly and I am not surprised if he can come up with solutions to problems which may seem impossible to be solved to others bcoz he does what others dont. He thinks, He Understands, He calculates, He weighs the possibilities and He finds the answer.

When Dumbledore reaches in the hospital-wing, he knew it very well, that Harry and Hermione have used time-turner and they have even succeeded before even Dumbledore brought the subject to them! Sounds shocking, isn't it? But if you follow proper logic, then this is definitely true! It means that when Harry and Hermione (and the readers of HP) were thinking Dumbledore is telling Harry and Hermione to use time-turner, he actually knew that THEY HAVE FINISHED USING TIME-TURNER!

Bang On...Think doesnot this suit the "Cyclic" theory I mentioned above? Deep in you Mind, If u prod it u have the answers...the essential explanations. I believe Dumbledore does that very often. Albus Dumbledore knew all along that The Time Turner had been Used bcoz it was destined to be used at that time. He knew that McNair had cut open the Pumpkin and not Buckbeak (sumthing that the First Harry' with Ron and Hermy had failed to register). He had understood it at that time. He had one glass of Brandy with Hagrid (lolz) and thought over it...he did all those things I mentioned earlier and he understood what had been done and what will be done. All his understanding are sounded on Logic. Some things cant but Follow one Route.

Now, the main point comes. When, Dumbledore entered the hospital-wing in the chapter 'Hermione's secret', he would, AT FIRST, obviously become surprised that how Harry and Hermione have managed to come here while they were supposed to be attacked by dementors. So, Dumbledore used the logic I gave, that the only way they could survive from the dementors is that the "time-traveling-Harry" saved the other Harry! So in the hospital-wing he could deduce not only that Harry and Hermione had time-traveled but that they succeeded — he knows Harry and Hermione did accept their time-traveling mission and did come out all right even before he brought up the subject to them! Shocking, right? But TRUE!

And all this time we thought that Dumbledore is telling Harry and Hermione to use Time-Turner, HE ACTUALLY KNEW THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE IT, AND EVEN SUCCEEDED!

Partly No...Snape brought them to the Hospital; wong. No surprises for Dumbledore. He has deduced it all over the cup of Brandy!

and the other part, Yes there is the CYCLIC Theory. Can u relate it now?

Now, in the scene in Hagrid's hut, Dumbledore clearly knew there was time-traveling going and that time-traveling Harry and Hermione had successfully removed Buckbeak. But how could he know that? When Dumbledore walked into the Infirmary (hospital-wing), he obviously could see that Harry and Hermione had not been soul-sucked by the Dementors, and that could not be the case unless Harry and Hermione do in fact time-travel (so that time-traveling Harry can save pre-time-traveling Harry and Hermione; and I have already explained that above). But when he was in Hagrid's hut, he (normally speaking) had no information that Harry and Hermione had time-traveled and yet he acted as if they had. So, now another complicated, critical question comes: how did Dumbledore know in Hagrid's hut that there was time-traveling going on? Could he magically see the second set of Harry and Hermione out there? Did he himself time-travel?

Simple ruddy Logic. I have given the answer to this before I believe.😊

When DD tells HH that they may save two lives tonight, did he already know that they were successful?

Oh yes. He already knew they can do it bcoz they had already done. This is a cycle of Life and to satisfy all the laws of nature, everything has to be SETTLEd from both the perspectives and that explains his eccentric behavior.

Why was DD in such a hurry in the hospital-wing? With Time-turner you have all the time in the world. No urgency at all. Then?

Hurry? Well Time is precious. It cannot be wasted. Whats the need to do it all slowly sluggishly when its just the same if u do it quick and fast?

However, the above theory on 'time-traveling in J.K.R.'s view' has got flaws/problems too...

Yes Of course. There is various self contradictory and paradoxical stetments in POA but we have to make concessions and Provoke our Brain to think. hen, we can forgive these flaws seing how difficult this probing is.

The statement of Harry "There must be something that happened around now that Dumbledore wants us to change" is one such incongruous one

all said and done, no two people can think the same way. There are bound to be differences in opinion. I can only say that to each his own. I have tried to present my views as clearly and explicily as I can. This is a very intriguing topic so I suggest u try to Understand it rather than read it, challenging ur own brain to come up with solutions. Maybe, the theories u zero upon may appeal to u better.

GOD laksmi u have almost written a novel...👏👏i read it thoroughly.....but will give my views later another day....

Anyways thanks a lot...😳

First let me say, Good lord, here I thought me and Lakshmi wrote gigantic posts. Three days? Wow, I don't have that type of patience. I slap on a couple of what I know, validate from other sites and move on. I bow down to your endurance.

Now on to the question (or shall I say questions) at hand.

My explanations are written in this format.

Originally posted by: stranger@mirror

This is an exceptionally long post. People who have patience read this, and those who doesn't I will request them to not. Please do not reply here, without reading everything written here. I do not mean this in any rude way, but if you people reply here without reading it properly, it can cause problem since people can misquote any important points.

Thank You

(any onr having problwm with font size plz tell me)

Key:

Dark Blue: Important line

Underlined Gray lines: Topics or Headlines

Dark Red (Maroon): Questions that you people need to answer

Dark Pink: My thoughts

Some important things that you need to know before starting reading this: there are actually four questions asked that you people need to answer. Other than that, there are many interesting facts about time traveling/turner that I gave here.

Note that everything written here is actually not only written by me: I have found out these information searching net, many other Harry Potter sites, etc. Some of the things, I directly pasted it, and some others which I wrote it myself.

I will give my final credit to this site from where I got most of the information: www.mugglenet.com

Can History/Past be changed?

Now, the most important and critical question about the TIME TURNER comes: can the past/history be changed?

Some people say that 'what has happened has happened, you cannot change the past'. But by all the theories and indirect statements J.K.R had written, I personally (however no completely) come to the conclusion that past/history can be changed.

I think it is clear from four things JKR says in the POA that under her theory we can change history:

Hermione tells Harry that "Nobody is supposed to change time" when Harry wants to get the Invisibility Cloak. So what does this sentence implies? This sentence means that no-one is supposed to change time, BUT this does NOT mean that changing time/past/history is impossible. She does not say that changing time is impossible; she didn't say: "Nobody can change time." Thus, changing time might be possible, and it might also NOT be possible. Since J.K.R hasn't written the sentence clearly, it can have both meanings. This was the perfect place for JKR to state that "Nobody can change time" but she makes it clear that we can change time, by saying that "no-body is supposed to change time". Also note that Hermione speaks of "breaking one of the most important wizarding laws." That too must refer to changing history because if history couldn't be changed, then there would have been NO NEED of making the time-turner thing illegal. Laws are against only possible actions. It makes no sense to have a law against something you couldn't do even if you wanted to. I haven't checked the hunting laws in state, but I sure they don't say "You cannot hunt dinosaurs" — it wouldn't make any sense to have such a law since we couldn't hunt extinct animals even if we wanted to. And the same applies here: there would be no law proscribing changing time only if such change is possible.

Laws were made in the day when people thought that witchs actually existed. "No practicing whichcraft," they said and enacted laws to make sure it didn't (exact laws of how to find out if one was a witch and how to prosecute them). They didn't see people practice witchcraft yet the idea emerged out of nowhere and without a basis. It's simply an idea and when ideas come from fear people tend to "nip it in the bud," as it were, without a validation as to how or if that idea/concept is even remotely possible. It could be that because of this fear the ministry proscribed to take the safe way out and just cover all the levels i.e. just not even chance it. Maybe they don't even know whether it's possible to change the past.

Hermione tells Harry that McGonagall told her that "loads of [time-traveling wizards and witches] ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake". That is definitely changing history: the "earlier" wizards have been eliminated by time-travel events from the history that produced the time-traveling wizards. How can you go back in time and eliminate someone from history without changing the past/history?

Notice that the whole idea of a wizard "killing" his earlier self does not make any sense unless you can change the past. The problem is that there has to be a change in history to say that someone in the past was killed by a time-traveling wizard.

Let me use an example:

Let's say the wizard Boris the Bewildered ("BTB") was born in 1960, had children in the 1980's, and time-traveled in 2005 and accidentally killed his 1970 self. Well, do his children magically disappear? If history didn't change, they still must exist. Do the written records of BTB and the memories of others had of him still remain unchanged? (If history does not change, the historical records would now record that BTB died in 1970, killed by a mysterious stranger, although he kept living to 2005 and had children after he "died" — strange but true.) If nothing changes, then we are in the same time-line and nothing happened. His kids were still born in the 1980's, and so on. And 2005 BTB still exists (even though he is now back in 1970 through his time-traveling).

But then in what sense then did 2005 BTB "kill" 1970 BTB? What does it mean to say that the 1970 BTB "died" if nothing changed? The events remain the same after 1970 (his children were born in the 1980's, and so forth). 2005 BTB would have traveled back in time, but he would still be alive (even though he killed 1970 BTB), and people today would just say that he time-traveled and so that is why he is not around in 2005. (If time-travel forward is possible, he could come back since nothing changed, and his teenage kids would be here to greet him.) So 2005 BTB didn't really kill after all — BTB lived on past 1970, the 1980's BTB still had children, and so forth. Nothing really happened because history didn't change — 2005 BTB just visited the past.

In sum, under the view that "history did not change," nothing really happened when BTB time- traveled and killed 1970 BTB. History just went on as before. But that's the problem: What does it mean to "kill" someone in the past if nothing actually changes afterwards? If nothing really changed, the concept of "killing" some one in the past doesn't make sense. Forget about the problem that time-travel means the past events are somehow still occurring — the problem here is that if history doesn't change, then the idea of "killing" a past person is considered as meaningless.

So saying 2005 BTB "killed" 1970 BTB doesn't mean anything if history didn't change. Therefore, the idea of "killing" your past self only makes sense if we can change history.

Thus, by saying wizards can kill their earlier selves, JKR is committed to saying we can change what happened in the past.

J.K.R had written this sentence, that McGonagall told Hermione "lots of wizards have needed up killing their past and future by traveling through time." This sentence would have been useless, totally useless, unless this sentence has any special meaning and that is: History/past can be changed…

AH, those things that crop up that simply doesn't get explained. McGonagall could very well be trying to scare Hermione into not doing more time-traveling then necessary (or she could believe this and this is simply something she is repeating from a story handed down as a precautionary measure for the reason mentioned in my first post). It's like those boogeyman stories parents tell kids, so they'll behave or like telling them that Santa would give the presents if they were good this year.

Harry says "There must be something that happened around now that Dumbledore wants us to change". Also notice that time-traveling-Harry wanted to change things by running out of the forest when he and time-traveling-Hermione were hiding there and getting the Invisibility Cloak and getting Wormtail. She had to grab and stop him. She only expressed concern about being seen, but the fact remains that Harry would have changed history. If Harry had stopped Wormtail or had just gotten the Invisibility Cloak, all the events of that evening from that point on would have changed, and he could have gotten them if Hermione had not intervened.

However it didn't, Hermione stopped him just in time as she was supposed to do, proscribed by fate.

Dumbledore warns Harry and Hermione about being careful because time-travel's consequences are complicated and unpredictable. But if nothing changes, it does not matter whether we are careless in the past or not. If history is unchangeable, Dumbledore's comment about the consequences being unpredictable is wrong: the consequences would be completely predictable because we know precisely what will happen up to the time of the time- traveling. In fact, there is nothing to predict because we already know exactly what will happen and there is nothing we can do about it. Also, we wouldn't have to be careful since we couldn't change history even if we wanted to. For that matter, you could go back with a machine gun and shoot up the place — or you could take a nuclear bomb and nuke the place — and it wouldn't change anything because the past is "fixed" and unchangeable. Thus, Dumbledore's warning to be careful doesn't make sense unless we might accidentally or intentionally change history.

It could be taken as I mentioned before the wizarding world not knowing whether it's possible for someone to time travel.

Can the above four points be explained without the past/history being changeable? If so, then how?

It could be taken as I mentioned before the wizarding world not knowing whether it's possible for someone to time travel.

How did Harry get into the hospital—when he has been unconscious by the dementors attacks?

Now, another critical question comes. I myself have not been able to find the answer properly, so I hope you people will all help me to do it.

OK, now here is my question: how did Harry get into the hospital wing, when he has become unconscious by the dementors attack?

As far as I can remember, the chapter "Dementor's Kiss" ends like this: that Dementors were surrounding everywhere near them, and that moment Harry realizes that he is seeing someone who looks very much familiar with him, on the other end of the river, and that moment he becomes unconscious. But in the next chapter, we see Harry to be in the hospital wing…

So, now the question comes, how did Harry get into the hospital wing? Was there someone who rescued him? If so, who is it? Dumbledore—?

In the beginning of Chapter Twenty-One of PoA, just a few paragraphs in conveys that Snape was the one who brought them into the Hospital wing.

OK….for the time being let's leave this question….cause we have lots of other questions to discuss!

Now, even if Harry somehow manages to come to the hospital wing, how did he manage to get pass the dementor (I'm talking about the second time, I mean the time-traveling-Harry)?

We know that after came to the hospital wing magically (after being attacked by the dementors) Harry and Hermione uses the Time-turner to go back in time. They go to the same place, and the time-turner Harry himself witnesses the "other Harry" being attacked by the dementors, (and that time he produces the patronus knowing that he had already "done it".)

But how have he done that?

If the dementors are attacking the "real Harry", it means that the "real Harry" is getting pain. So, if the "real Harry" gets pained and become unconscious, then isn't the "time-traveling-Harry" also supposed to get pain and become unconscious?

They're the same person but they do not occupy the same body at the same time. Harry2 had already went through this while Harry1 is just going through it and when he is done he'll travel back and take Harry2's space while another takes his own.

Because, we know it very well, that, in the Harry Potter and The Prisoner of Azkaban movie, it is shown that, when the "time-traveling-Hermione" threw a stone into the "real-Harry", the real Harry gets pain, but along with the real Harry, the "time-traveling-Harry" also gets pain!

No, Harry2 was not feeling the pain at the same time, he was remembering how it felt back when he was hit with it.

So what does the above logic explains? It explains that "Harry" is actually one, whether there are "more than one" Harry in the same place, at the same time. And that is why, when the "real-Harry" gets the pain in the forehead, the Harry who has time-traveled (time-traveling-Harry) also gets the pain.

So, following this logic, does not the time-traveling-Harry supposed to get attacked by the dementors, along with the real Harry (who was attacked by the dementors)? Because if the time-traveling-Harry gets hurt by the stone which Hermione threw to the real-Harry (along with the real-Harry), then, isn't the time-traveling-Harry also supposed to get hurt/attacked by the dementors along with the real-Harry?

But this doesn't happen? Why? What possible explanation can you people give for why the time-traveling-Harry didn't get attacked along with the real one? And not to forget the first question that how, Harry, on the first place reached the hospital wing!

Explained. I don't think the stone thing happened in the book, though (I couldn't find it) and I'd never take what the movie says as canon. They add/delete things all the time and it makes things incredibly inconsistent.

Can someone explain me, that HOW Harry, on the first place, manages to reach the hospital-wing, while he had been attacked by the dementors and became unconscious? Who helped Harry to reach the hospital wing?

Snape (so says he in the book).

And secondly, can someone explain me the other question I have asked that, how did the "time-traveling-Harry" manages to get away and rescue Sirius, when the "real-Harry" or "Pre-time-traveling-Harry" is attacked by the dementors? Because Harry is actually one, so, if one Harry gets unconscious and attacked by the dementors, then isn't the other Harry also supposed to have the same CONDITION?

Explained

Weird but Interesting facts: billions of parallel worlds are created by Hermione!

Some people argue that time-turning creates parallel worlds. If I understand correctly, under the "parallel world" scenario, all the different time-lines go on existing and not get replaced by time-travel. In one world Buckbeak is killed, but in the parallel world created by time-travel Buckbeak never died. And both worlds continue to exist.

Notice that it wasn't just one new world created by Harry and Hermione's time-turning that night. New worlds are created every time anyone ever uses a time-turner. Hermione during the school year had to time-turn for each of two classes that met (I think) twice a week for about thirty to forty weeks, depending on how long the Hogwarts school year is with vacations. That's 4 time- turnings a week for let's say 35 weeks, or a total of 140 time-turnings.

And it is not just 140 new worlds that Hermione created by her time-turning — the worlds multiply exponentially. That is, the first time Hermione used the time-turner, a second world was created with its own Hermione. So now there are two Hermiones who each use the time-turner. So the next time the time-turner has to be used for the next class, these two Hermiones create two more Hermiones. So now there are four Hermiones. So the next time the time-turner is used, eight Hermiones result. So by the end of the first week alone, there are already 16 worlds with 16 Hermiones now using a time-turner. So guys can you imagine how many billions and billions of world our little Hermione has created?

Ok, now I have, using computer-calculator found out that 2 to the power 140 is: !!!

So our little Hermione created millions or billions of new worlds all by herself. And that is not to mention all the previous times that others have used time-turners. All that to explain JKR's remark about "loads of time-traveling witches and wizards killed their past selves." And it doesn't even explain the basic problem of how Harry got passed the dementors to time-travel later that evening. All in all, this seems to be a terribly convoluted explanation. I seriously doubt if JKR had in mind more than just one world. I grant that we can supply an explanation for what an author wrote that the author may not have had in mind, but a far simpler explanation involves altering history and just one world.

And the "parallel worlds" scenario does not help to explain the basic problem of how Harry got passed the dementors to time-travel in the first place.

They're traveling through their own dimension not creating alternate dimensions. The time travelers are not from parallel worlds they're from another time in the same world. It's an endless cycle, we don't know when the first Harry the time traveler started (in a cycle there isn't a starting point) because they've all been through the same exact things and are doing the same exact things. (Hope that jargon made sense).

Dumbledore knew everything from the very beginning—? Is he some kind of seer, or he himself is using Time-Turner?

When Dumbledore reaches in the hospital-wing, he knew it very well, that Harry and Hermione have used time-turner and they have even succeeded before even Dumbledore brought the subject to them! Sounds shocking, isn't it? But if you follow proper logic, then this is definitely true! It means that when Harry and Hermione (and the readers of HP) were thinking Dumbledore is telling Harry and Hermione to use time-turner, he actually knew that THEY HAVE FINISHED USING TIME-TURNER!

You all are becoming confused, eh? Ok, let me tell you how this happened….

We all know it very well that Harry and Hermione were attacked by dementors, and that's where the chapter 'Dementor's Kiss' ends. But surprisingly, the next chapter, 'Hermione's secrets' start like this that: Harry and Hermione are inside the hospital wing. But how is that possible?

If the dementors attacked Harry and Hermione, then HOW ON EARTH HAVE HARRY AND HERMIONE MANAGED TO REACH THE HOSPITAL-WING?

Snape did it

The only answer to this question can be that: someone had saved Harry and Hermione from the dementors…now we all know that Harry sees his "father", which is actually the "time-traveling-Harry" on the other side of the river, who PRODUCES the patronus which eventually saves Harry and Hermione (although its not clear how they reached the hospital-wing, it's very much clear that they are saved by the "time-traveling" version of them.

So you people got what I'm saying? All I am saying is that Harry and Hermione were saved by the "time-traveling-Harry".

No, we see by the time-traveling Harry's perspective that this did not happen. He did not save them. Only explanation is that "Snape did it."😆 It sounds like I'm framing him for stealing a cookie or something.

Now, the main point comes. When, Dumbledore entered the hospital-wing in the chapter 'Hermione's secret', he would, AT FIRST, obviously become surprised that how Harry and Hermione have managed to come here while they were supposed to be attacked by dementors. So, Dumbledore used the logic I gave, that the only way they could survive from the dementors is that the "time-traveling-Harry" saved the other Harry! So in the hospital-wing he could deduce not only that Harry and Hermione had time-traveled but that they succeeded — he knows Harry and Hermione did accept their time-traveling mission and did come out all right even before he brought up the subject to them! Shocking, right? But TRUE!

...or he didn't know but is acting like his usual persuasive, "I've got everything under control, trust me," type of way.

And all this time we thought that Dumbledore is telling Harry and Hermione to use Time-Turner, HE ACTUALLY KNEW THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE IT, AND EVEN SUCCEEDED!

Now, in the scene in Hagrid's hut, Dumbledore clearly knew there was time-traveling going and that time-traveling Harry and Hermione had successfully removed Buckbeak. But how could he know that? When Dumbledore walked into the Infirmary (hospital-wing), he obviously could see that Harry and Hermione had not been soul-sucked by the Dementors, and that could not be the case unless Harry and Hermione do in fact time-travel (so that time-traveling Harry can save pre-time-traveling Harry and Hermione; and I have already explained that above). But when he was in Hagrid's hut, he (normally speaking) had no information that Harry and Hermione had time-traveled and yet he acted as if they had. So, now another complicated, critical question comes: how did Dumbledore know in Hagrid's hut that there was time-traveling going on? Could he magically see the second set of Harry and Hermione out there? Did he himself time-travel?

Dumbledore himself is an extraordinary person. There are things he notices that any other person never would and even if he was surprised by this, he is the type of person that can keep his cool under the most pressing of pressures. He is also the type of person who would snoop on the issue so it is possible that his thinking may have led him to the theory (but not a known fact yet) that Harry and Hermione time-traveled. Things kindof fall into place when one accumulates more info and Dumbledore may not have known that it was Harry and Hermione who did it until the moment he proposed the idea.

How did Dumbledore, in Hagrid's hut know that time-traveling is going on?

He probably didn't at the time but the wheels in his head is turning to find a reasoning.

Could he see magically see the SECOND set of Harry and Hermione out there?

Maybe, as I said he's an extraordinary character.

Or is he some kind of SEER that he, without going any further, knew that time-traveling is going on? (Like professor Trelawney)?

Well if he is a seer, then he's probably not like professor Trelawney. 😆

Or is he also time-traveling?!

That could be a possibility. He does know alot of stuff that others don't. Makes one wonder.

Here are some THOUGHTS on this matter:

Either Dumbledore is some type of seer or he is perhaps time-traveling. Maybe Dumbledore somehow intervened with the Dementors by the lake the first time? He has told Harry that he doesn't need a cloak to become invisible after all (Sorcerer's stone).

I have read the idea before that maybe Dumbledore saved Harry, Hermione, and Sirius in an earlier time-line we never saw, and that is how Harry got to 11:55 PM to time-travel back and save himself in the time-line created by time-travel that we do see. (In the sequence of events in the POA, pre-time-traveling Harry goes unconscious and then wakes up in the Infirmary — there is a gap where someone finds them by the lake and takes them to the Infirmary.) So who is that person to save them and bring them to hospital-wing? Dumbledore? That first time-line no longer exists (if only one time-line ever exists) but was erased by a second time-line which in turn was erased by a third time-line when Harry and Hermione time-traveled and changed history.

I don't like this idea, however, because, well, we want Harry to save himself, and that is also how JKR wrote the sequence. But however, Dumbledore saving Harry and Hermione and bringing to the hospital wing has got flaws too: if Dumbledore saved Harry and Hermione, why did he bother to send them back in time at all — why didn't he do it himself?

But there is an intriguing comment in 'Harry Potter and the Order of The Phoenix': Dumbledore is going over Harry's earlier years and he says "I watched from afar as you struggled to repel dementors." Granted the context of DD's comments is about Harry's third year as a whole and may not be about that night. But it does show that DD was watching Harry. So it may be that DD saw from afar what happened that night and intervened. But the passage doesn't say he did intervene, and wouldn't JKR have told us if he had? (Of course, DD might be keeping his time-traveling actions a secret and he sent Harry back to fight the dementors so that he would get the experience.)

Perhaps, if Dumbledore went forward in time, to beyond the point where Harry and Hermione had rescued Sirius (when they were back in the hospital wing) he would have known that they were going to rescue Sirius using time travel, so would have known to prompt Hermione to use the Time Turner in the first place. Hermione tells Harry that if you saw yourself (when in the future/past) you would think you'd gone mad.... but if Dumbledore is always using Time Travel, it means he expects to see himself anyway.

(Traveling into a future that (we think) hasn't occurred yet is one of the metaphysical problems with time-travel that is really difficult. We like to think the future hasn't occurred yet and is open (since we like to think that we have free choice in the events that occur) -- so where would Dumbledore travel to? The whole thing is hard to get my mind around.)

We like to think that the future hasn't happened but our future is our future self's present and their future self considers our future and our future self's present their past. (Did that make sense?)

Why did DD ask H and H to time-travel? Why did he decide it was necessary? And when did he decide? Had he already visited Sirius before he went to the hospital-wing to ask H and H to time- travel? But Sirius was already saved by then? And again, when he entered the hospital-wing he would have immediately known that H and H had accepted their time-traveling mission and succeeded (or they wouldn't be in the condition they were in).

So, what did DD know and when did he know it?

When DD tells HH that they may save two lives tonight, did he already know that they were successful?

Extraordinary man who uses everything at his disposal (most importantly his own mind) to solve even the hardest of problems using the limited knowledge he has.

Why was DD in such a hurry in the hospital-wing? With Time-turner you have all the time in the world. No urgency at all. Then?

As I pointed out earlier he may not know whether the past can be changed and he may not know what the consequences would be if they went later on (when they find out what exactly happened to Sirius). It could be a "lets not risk it" thing. Dumbledore is a smart man, he probably brushed up on all this information and used what he got out of all the knowledge he was able to accumulate.

Can people ONLY travel back to his/her own history?

When thinking of the past & whether or not it exists to be visited, another consideration would be which past? It all seems to come down to what the past really is. We certainly physically experience our lives, in the present at least, and we can participate in events with others which become history & can be recollected (fondly or not) with others, but I wonder if history is truly a fixed event. Every person experiences an event personally. I think we can all think of times when what we've noticed of an event was not what someone else recalled- who was right? Some things can be tied to facts: which horse won the race, that I was the one who scraped my knee climbing out of the tree- these things have consequences that allow them to be tied to physical reality. But how it felt to scrape my knee is part of my own personal experience of reality & becomes part of my own past (particularly if it left a scar), and likely remains a minor & forgettable part of history for anyone else.

It seems to me that history is a set of personal events, of which some become agreed-upon, points of reference for a larger group of people. Even if I was present for an historical event, my experience of it would not be the same as anyone else's. I can report my experiences, & they can become part of the agreed-upon record (or not- since it's the victor's who write history).

What this all leads me to wonder is if time-travel might only be possible if one travels into one's own history- as Harry & Hermione did in POA. If history is so personal, than how could anyone really travel beyond what they know? It's interesting that Harry & Hermione traveled back to events they have both experienced—until the very end when Harry succeeds in conjuring the Patronus, which only he saw the first time around (Hermione had already been overcome by the Dementors) & only he experiences the second time. I wonder if JKR is subtly following just such a rule concerning time-travel.

Some people definitely have this question that: If time-turner can change the course of history, then Harry could have brought her mother and father and make the world get rid of Voldemort...BUT it's not possible. Because I have already written up, that only those history can be changed, which I remember and had experienced myself. If so, then plotlines concerning Harry traveling back to his early childhood to rid the world of Voldemort would not likely be possible (unless Harry underwent hypnotherapy to enable himself to accurately remember his early childhood experiences). Unfortunately, it's hard to draw any conclusions about what JKR's rules about time travel are (except for McGonagall's warnings & DD's words about the unpredictability of the results....) because she hasn't overtly shown us much time-traveling.

So, what I'm trying to tell is that, according to me, I think J.K.R.'s theory on time-traveling is that: people can only travel to his or hers own history....

It could be possible, all options are open.

However, the above theory on 'time-traveling in J.K.R.'s view' has got flaws/problems too...

The problem with trying to limit time-travel only to one's own history is that whatever we do the time-travel will have repercussions for others. For example, Harry and Hermione saved Buckbeak and that is not limited just to their personal histories but will have rippling effects for the rest of the world.

...assuming that it's even possible to change the past.

Thank You

Of course I could be completely wrong on my answers, since everything I've said is merely speculation, I did however give reasoning as to how it may be possible that past present and future are interconnected and unchangeable.

If you have questions on any of what I said, feel free to ask.😊