Time-Turner:check the 1st page right now! - Page 3

Omg Jane..cool work yaar..though we dont seem to be agreeing on many counts(though surprisingly, here differences in opinion is much lesser it seems😆 at least abt that "Cycle"!😉😆)
its a pleasure to see sumone else join the bandwagon too , Not to mention how well u have written. 😊

Originally posted by: lucky_lakshmi

Omg Jane..cool work yaar..though we dont seem to be agreeing on many counts(though surprisingly, here differences in opinion is much lesser it seems😆 at least abt that "Cycle"!😉😆)
its a pleasure to see sumone else join the bandwagon too , Not to mention how well u have written. 😊

Time is a complicated thing and without all the facts all we can do is speculate and see which makes the most sense doesn't make one person right or wrong, IMO.

It's amazing how many things we agree on in the surface but then at the same time disagree with the finer points of that same theory. Tis is the beauty of differed thoughts, I suppose. 😊

^^still its far better than sum other discussions we have had where we are like daggers never agreeing on any point...😉
anyways No two ppl can agree on every minute detail of anything whatsoever.

anyways Topic Starter has disappeared now!😆😉

Originally posted by: lucky_lakshmi

^^still its far better than sum other discussions we have had where we are like daggers never agreeing on any point...😉
anyways No two ppl can agree on every minute detail of anything whatsoever.

anyways Topic Starter has disappeared now!😆😉

Nope....i havent disappeared....it will take time for me to read what Jane had written. By tomorrow i will give my views on it.😳😉

Originally posted by: stranger@mirror

Nope....i havent disappeared....it will take time for me to read what Jane had written. By tomorrow i will give my views on it.😳😉

Sorry if I wrote too much. 😳 I tried to compress as much as possible without leaving my point behind.

Originally posted by: *Jane*

Sorry if I wrote too much. 😳 I tried to compress as much as possible without leaving my point behind.

Na its alright.....😆actually i had bengali test so cudnt write....i will give my views as soon as possible😳

OK guys....now heres my views of what Jane and Lakshmi wrote:

KEY:

My question and the things i mentioned: Brown
Janes view: violet...
Lakshmiz view: Deep dark Black
NOW AGAIN MY VIEW IN: Blood-red😃

Labib's view: Can History/Past be changed?

I think it is clear from four things JKR says in the POA that under her theory we can change history:

Hermione tells Harry that "Nobody is supposed to change time" when Harry wants to get the Invisibility Cloak. So what does this sentence implies? This sentence means that no-one is supposed to change time, BUT this does NOT mean that changing time/past/history is impossible. She does not say that changing time is impossible; she didn't say: "Nobody can change time." Thus, changing time might be possible, and it might also NOT be possible. Since J.K.R hasn't written the sentence clearly, it can have both meanings. This was the perfect place for JKR to state that "Nobody can change time" but she makes it clear that we can change time, by saying that "no-body is supposed to change time". Also note that Hermione speaks of "breaking one of the most important wizarding laws." That too must refer to changing history because if history couldn't be changed, then there would have been NO NEED of making the time-turner thing illegal. Laws are against only possible actions. It makes no sense to have a law against something you couldn't do even if you wanted to. I haven't checked the hunting laws in state, but I sure they don't say "You cannot hunt dinosaurs" — it wouldn't make any sense to have such a law since we couldn't hunt extinct animals even if we wanted to. And the same applies here: there would be no law proscribing changing time only if such change is possible.

Hermione tells Harry that McGonagall told her that "loads of [time-traveling wizards and witches] ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake". That is definitely changing history: the "earlier" wizards have been eliminated by time-travel events from the history that produced the time-traveling wizards. How can you go back in time and eliminate someone from history without changing the past/history?

Notice that the whole idea of a wizard "killing" his earlier self does not make any sense unless you can change the past. The problem is that there has to be a change in history to say that someone in the past was killed by a time-traveling wizard.

Harry says "There must be something that happened around now that Dumbledore wants us to change". Also notice that time-traveling-Harry wanted to change things by running out of the forest when he and time-traveling-Hermione were hiding there and getting the Invisibility Cloak and getting Wormtail. She had to grab and stop him. She only expressed concern about being seen, but the fact remains that Harry would have changed history. If Harry had stopped Wormtail or had just gotten the Invisibility Cloak, all the events of that evening from that point on would have changed, and he could have gotten them if Hermione had not intervened.

Dumbledore warns Harry and Hermione about being careful because time-travel's consequences are complicated and unpredictable. But if nothing changes, it does not matter whether we are careless in the past or not. If history is unchangeable, Dumbledore's comment about the consequences being unpredictable is wrong: the consequences would be completely predictable because we know precisely what will happen up to the time of the time- traveling. In fact, there is nothing to predict because we already know exactly what will happen and there is nothing we can do about it. Also, we wouldn't have to be careful since we couldn't change history even if we wanted to. For that matter, you could go back with a machine gun and shoot up the place — or you could take a nuclear bomb and nuke the place — and it wouldn't change anything because the past is "fixed" and unchangeable. Thus, Dumbledore's warning to be careful doesn't make sense unless we might accidentally or intentionally change history.

Can the above four points be explained without the past/history being changeable? If so, then how?

Laksmiz view on this matter:

Now, This questions has arisen a good number of times and seldom have we arrived at an answer that can be accepted by everyone alike. So what I am going to say, may not necessarily appeal to you. If so, plz keep in mind that I am not imposing this view on anyone but this is my view alone, what appeals to my senses and my mind. No two people can be the same, can think the same way. I only endeavor to put my thoughts across well. So this is my thoughts only.

First and foremost, keep in mind, a book or a novel is means of putting your views across. Authors do that thru their books and that is what Rowling does too. Harry Potter is no gospel and so the question that should arise is rather "Does Rowling mean The Past can be Changed" and not "Can the past be changed"-IE: Simply on the basis of HP.

now, your first question was about the usage of "Supposed to" instead "Cannnot ".

See, it has been mentioned in he book very conspicuously about how DANGEROUS it is to meddle with time. Time isnt sumthing that one can play with.

Lets say, What is Done is Done. Its often said how stupid it is to lament over sumthing that hasnt gone the way u wud have liked it to in the past. Its first of all, a waste of time and leads to depression. And so, Time is precious and must be handled Judiciously (as If we dont know that already, what say?! though 'spect many of us dont really do just that, I for one dont~😊)

As for "Breaking the most important Wizarding Law"- I would rather put it as "Breaking the most important law of the nature". Wizards or lesser mortals (Muggles), we all live in the same world with sum laws of NATURE that should be mandatorily followed by BY ALL. WHat has happened has happened, and changing something what has happened, is challenging Destiny and Fate,In short making amends in the truth of nature. Absurd it may sound, for a world which is progressing so fast, This is something that should not be broken. Its a Code of Life. Wizards have the feeling they are the 'superior beings' or at least, many do and so The Wizarding Community s warned that there is no difference or privilege for them in THAT PARTICULAR RULE, Wizards or Muggles, U have to follow that. Dont mess with Time.

Now: "the whole idea of a wizard "killing" his earlier self does not make any sense unless you can change the past."

That may not be the only explanation. Imagine that u have gone back in Time. What has happened b4 is happening now too (in true sense it isnt happening Two times, but The Time Turner just helps u see from the Omniscient Third Person Perspective) But for the time being, U will excuse me for saying "happened B4" and "Happened now" Bcoz I want to make my point clear. And so , back to the point, what has happened b4, the person who has "Travelled thru time" witnesses again. Remember at this time, even if something fatal happens to this 'other you', YOU WILL DIE. Bcoz its YOU all over again, only that the First You doesn't know about this other conscience/reflection. So at the beginning, The "Original you" was ignorant abt the 'second you'. Remember, IN POA movie, Hermione throws a stone at Harry's Head and the 'Second Harry' tells her "Ouch, That Hurt". Its the same u. Both of u feel pain similarly, bcoz u are just U!

But after the Time Turner is Turned, You view matters from the second view, and not the singular view. When U exist, You Have Fear for you life. Only when u KNOW U DO, Will something happen to you that can cost your life. Imagine that the 'second You' dies. Now this Second you is U urself. So U KNOW U ARE DEAD. U are dead only if u know u are dead. so this second you DIES and that means YOU DIE. The past hasnt been altered here. The Lone difference is that, U dared to challenge the nature, and Nature gave u tit for tat and killed YOU rather. A Rule 'tried to be' Broken, a Punishment Suffered...what say? Of course this doesnt ALWAYS Happen, bcoz there are some who are duffers enough to get carried away and arenot careful.

I know this may really sound Mad, But I request you to try to THINK this way and not just 'READ' this. I am sure that will make, if not all, then a bit more sense.😊

Janes views:

Laws were made in the day when people thought that witchs actually existed. "No practicing whichcraft," they said and enacted laws to make sure it didn't (exact laws of how to find out if one was a witch and how to prosecute them). They didn't see people practice witchcraft yet the idea emerged out of nowhere and without a basis. It's simply an idea and when ideas come from fear people tend to "nip it in the bud," as it were, without a validation as to how or if that idea/concept is even remotely possible. It could be that because of this fear the ministry proscribed to take the safe way out and just cover all the levels i.e. just not even chance it. Maybe they don't even know whether it's possible to change the past.

MY (labib's) view:

Hmmmm, i found lakshmiz answer very logical. Thanks lakshmi for making me understand it.

But sorry to say, Jane, i didnt understand ur logic properly. Will u be kind enought to explain me it again?😳

Again Jane's view:

AH, those things that crop up that simply doesn't get explained. McGonagall could very well be trying to scare Hermione into not doing more time-traveling then necessary (or she could believe this and this is simply something she is repeating from a story handed down as a precautionary measure for the reason mentioned in my first post). It's like those boogeyman stories parents tell kids, so they'll behave or like telling them that Santa would give the presents if they were good this year.

My view:

Sorry, but i dont think MCgonagal had made a story. I think Lakshmiz point is clearer and more logical. Like Lakshmi said, no matter how many body u occupy, there will actually be one "U". I will request u to read her point, i think thats more appropriate.😛

Jane's view:

However it didn't, Hermione stopped him just in time as she was supposed to do, proscribed by fate.

My view:

Hm....so we cant say anything about this situation since it hasnr happened...😆

Jane's view:

It could be taken as I mentioned before the wizarding world not knowing whether it's possible for someone to time travel.

My view:

Sorry?😕

Okkkkk...........about that para of going into the hospital wing, i am not writing that coz i understood both of what u have written😛

Now, even if Harry somehow manages to come to the hospital wing, how did he manage to get pass the dementor (I'm talking about the second time, I mean the time-traveling-Harry)?

We know that after came to the hospital wing magically (after being attacked by the dementors) Harry and Hermione uses the Time-turner to go back in time. They go to the same place, and the time-turner Harry himself witnesses the "other Harry" being attacked by the dementors, (and that time he produces the patronus knowing that he had already "done it".)

But how have he done that?

If the dementors are attacking the "real Harry", it means that the "real Harry" is getting pain. So, if the "real Harry" gets pained and become unconscious, then isn't the "time-traveling-Harry" also supposed to get pain and become unconscious?

Because, we know it very well, that, in the Harry Potter and The Prisoner of Azkaban movie, it is shown that, when the "time-traveling-Hermione" threw a stone into the "real-Harry", the real Harry gets pain, but along with the real Harry, the "time-traveling-Harry" also gets pain!

So what does the above logic explains? It explains that "Harry" is actually one, whether there are "more than one" Harry in the same place, at the same time. And that is why, when the "real-Harry" gets the pain in the forehead, the Harry who has time-traveled (time-traveling-Harry) also gets the pain.

Laksmiz view:

Oh No no absoluely not yaar. No person can exist on a whole as Two Different People.

The Biggest difficulty u need to overcome when u are to do something vital in an asking position is 'TO BELIEVE YOU CAN DO IT'. Often, bcoz u dont have confidence in yourself, U crumble and are unabl to succeed. Confidence can stem from experience. If u have already Done something, U can do it again. Ur Confidence is Boosted. Say, imagine that tomorrow is ur Exam. You are very tensed. Actually U have studied everything, know it all but still fear the D Day. You go off to sleep the night b4 and u have a weird dream where u are writing the exam and u have all the questions b4 ur eyes to feast upon. U know all the answers and u write them all. U wake up the next day but u vaguely remember what u saw, and dont really know if it was a 'Dream' or anything. U go to the Examination hall, and get the Q paper and imagine ur surprise when u see some very very familiar Questions (those u had incidentally chanced to see in ur Dream--which has been the result of Anticipation). U start Writing , this time confidently bcoz Boy U have done it already. U know that u know the answer. So why fear?

This is more or less the case in POA too. At the beginning (read as b4 the Time Turner was used), Harry is unable to cast a real patronus bcoz his nerves are tensed and agitated and he lacks confidence. His happy thoughts are being Sucked out of him. Confidence is a very STRONG AND HAPPY belief / thought and that is being sucked out of him. and So, THIS Harry is unable to produce one. Remember that This is the 'First harry' and so what is FIRST registered in Harry' Mind is what THIS PERSON SEES and Experiences. The Other Harry is just another reflection of this person. He realises that He CAN DO IT bcoz at the beginning he had seen Himself (which he mistook as his dad) produce a patronus and therefore is able to do something bcoz He has alreaDY done it!

The natural question that will arise now is how the 'second harry' cast it AT FIRST when he had not "already done it".

In answer to that, I wud put a question which was asked in Deathly Hallows at the Ravenclaw Tower ie: "Which came first, The Phoenix or the Fire"? The answer given is "Bcoz a circle has no beginning". Its both the same,one cannot be without the other. singularly, nothing can happen.

Similarly, Both the 'first Harry' and The 'Second Harry' are HARRY POTTER Himself. They cannot exist one at a time. They just reflect his different layers of conscience. Its all one huge circle that happens all over again and again. There is No "BEGINNING" or "ending". Everything that has happened has happened b4, We are living in a mirror world.

Janes view on this matter:

No, Harry2 was not feeling the pain at the same time, he was remembering how it felt back when he was hit it.

My view:

(sorry for some reason cudnt write in red...)

Again sorry jane, but i dont think harry was just remembering....i think lakshmiz correct: dementor attacks a person "mentally"...and thats the reason harry2 (time-travelling Harry) wasnt attacked since he tried his best to forget the pain which he is having mentally...

Weird but Interesting facts: billions of parallel worlds are created by Hermione!

Some people argue that time-turning creates parallel worlds. If I understand correctly, under the "parallel world" scenario, all the different time-lines go on existing and not get replaced by time-travel. In one world Buckbeak is killed, but in the parallel world created by time-travel Buckbeak never died. And both worlds continue to exist.

Notice that it wasn't just one new world created by Harry and Hermione's time-turning that night. New worlds are created every time anyone ever uses a time-turner. Hermione during the school year had to time-turn for each of two classes that met (I think) twice a week for about thirty to forty weeks, depending on how long the Hogwarts school year is with vacations. That's 4 time- turnings a week for let's say 35 weeks, or a total of 140 time-turnings.

And it is not just 140 new worlds that Hermione created by her time-turning — the worlds multiply exponentially. That is, the first time Hermione used the time-turner, a second world was created with its own Hermione. So now there are two Hermiones who each use the time-turner. So the next time the time-turner has to be used for the next class, these two Hermiones create two more Hermiones. So now there are four Hermiones. So the next time the time-turner is used, eight Hermiones result. So by the end of the first week alone, there are already 16 worlds with 16 Hermiones now using a time-turner. So guys can you imagine how many billions and billions of world our little Hermione has created?

Ok, now I have, using computer-calculator found out that 2 to the power 140 is: !!!

So our little Hermione created millions or billions of new worlds all by herself. And that is not to mention all the previous times that others have used time-turners. All that to explain JKR's remark about "loads of time-traveling witches and wizards killed their past selves." And it doesn't even explain the basic problem of how Harry got passed the dementors to time-travel later that evening. All in all, this seems to be a terribly convoluted explanation. I seriously doubt if JKR had in mind more than just one world. I grant that we can supply an explanation for what an author wrote that the author may not have had in mind, but a far simpler explanation involves altering history and just one world.

And the "parallel worlds" scenario does not help to explain the basic problem of how Harry got passed the dementors to time-travel in the first place.

Lakshmiz view on this matter;

I am not against "Parallel Universe/Multiverse" theory but at least in this case, thats not what happened or so I feel. We are dealing with only one universe here or else, it wud b really weird if JUST THE SAMe THING in the same sequence happened in the parallel world as in he world we live in. Then whats the difference b/w them? They are the Same!

I already said that this is a CYCLE OF happenings. There is no end or beginning for a Circle. Buckbeak had never been executed. He had been saved at the beginning itself by that Harry who had been through the Cycle already, or "The Second Harry" ( ofc with Hermione but I think its better to refer only to ONE person now bcoz otherwise, it will be even more difficult to grasp this theory and I will drive u mad - if I havent already done that, that is! ). The fact that he had witnessed t b4 too is shown well in the Mpovie version. We first see sum stone hotting Harry's Head, a stone which seemed to cum from nowhere. Then after sum time, after the TT is used, we see Hermione 2 throwing the Stone at Harry's Head and we realise that she had been the source of the stone which had earlier been taken as to have cum from nowhere.

The 'first Harry' who is yet to go thru it all (Or rather understand this cycle), doesnt SEE Buckbeak being executed but only HEARS the sound of the axe being lowered into something. Obviously, he took it to have been on Buckbeak's Neck. There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious Fact. Actually, that had never happened. The lone difference, I repeat, is that in POA, We (the reader) saw it twice, each time thru different Perspectives.

Dumbledore knew everything from the very beginning—? Is he some kind of seer, or he himself is using Time-Turner?When u speak pf this "all knowing" quality of Dumbledore, One more prudent example that comes to my mind on this note is Mr Sherlock Holmes, the legendary sleuth created By Sir Arthur Conan Doyle . Those who have read the adventures of this great detective will agree with me when I say that most of the theories he settles on are as quick as intuitions but sounded firmly on logic. All u need to do is Follow the events closely and not in an excited state of Mind. Keep calm and retrace your steps/ retrace the happening. Follow them closely and universally.

I recall One dialogue of Holmes to his sidekick Watson (where he mocks Watson for having made no deductions of value from a happening)..."U 'see' it all My dear Watson, But I 'observe' it all"

Dumbledore is neither using a Time Turner nor is he a Seer. He is a very observant person and I think he often takes this Holmes Route! Dumbledore has studied Human Laws very closely and profoundly and I am not surprised if he can come up with solutions to problems which may seem impossible to be solved to others bcoz he does what others dont. He thinks, He Understands, He calculates, He weighs the possibilities and He finds the answer.

When Dumbledore reaches in the hospital-wing, he knew it very well, that Harry and Hermione have used time-turner and they have even succeeded before even Dumbledore brought the subject to them! Sounds shocking, isn't it? But if you follow proper logic, then this is definitely true! It means that when Harry and Hermione (and the readers of HP) were thinking Dumbledore is telling Harry and Hermione to use time-turner, he actually knew that THEY HAVE FINISHED USING TIME-TURNER!Bang On...Think doesnot this suit the "Cyclic" theory I mentioned above? Deep in you Mind, If u prod it u have the answers...the essential explanations. I believe Dumbledore does that very often. Albus Dumbledore knew all along that The Time Turner had been Used bcoz it was destined to be used at that time. He knew that McNair had cut open the Pumpkin and not Buckbeak (sumthing that the First Harry' with Ron and Hermy had failed to register). He had understood it at that time. He had one glass of Brandy with Hagrid (lolz) and thought over it...he did all those things I mentioned earlier and he understood what had been done and what will be done. All his understanding are sounded on Logic. Some things cant but Follow one Route.

Janes view here:

They're traveling through their own dimension not creating alternate dimensions. The time travelers are not from parallel worlds they're from another time in the same world. It's an endless cycle, we don't know when the first Harry the time traveler started (in a cycle there isn't a starting point) because they've all been through the same exact things and are doing the same exact things. (Hope that jargon made sense).

My view:

sorry jane and lakshmi....i havent understood any of u...explain again!

Dumbledore knew everything from the very beginning—? Is he some kind of seer, or he himself is using Time-Turner?

When Dumbledore reaches in the hospital-wing, he knew it very well, that Harry and Hermione have used time-turner and they have even succeeded before even Dumbledore brought the subject to them! Sounds shocking, isn't it? But if you follow proper logic, then this is definitely true! It means that when Harry and Hermione (and the readers of HP) were thinking Dumbledore is telling Harry and Hermione to use time-turner, he actually knew that THEY HAVE FINISHED USING TIME-TURNER!

You all are becoming confused, eh? Ok, let me tell you how this happened….

We all know it very well that Harry and Hermione were attacked by dementors, and that's where the chapter 'Dementor's Kiss' ends. But surprisingly, the next chapter, 'Hermione's secrets' start like this that: Harry and Hermione are inside the hospital wing. But how is that possible?

If the dementors attacked Harry and Hermione, then HOW ON EARTH HAVE HARRY AND HERMIONE MANAGED TO REACH THE HOSPITAL-WING?

The only answer to this question can be that: someone had saved Harry and Hermione from the dementors…now we all know that Harry sees his "father", which is actually the "time-traveling-Harry" on the other side of the river, who PRODUCES the patronus which eventually saves Harry and Hermione (although its not clear how they reached the hospital-wing, it's very much clear that they are saved by the "time-traveling" version of them.

So you people got what I'm saying? All I am saying is that Harry and Hermione were saved by the "time-traveling-Harry".

Now, the main point comes. When, Dumbledore entered the hospital-wing in the chapter 'Hermione's secret', he would, AT FIRST, obviously become surprised that how Harry and Hermione have managed to come here while they were supposed to be attacked by dementors. So, Dumbledore used the logic I gave, that the only way they could survive from the dementors is that the "time-traveling-Harry" saved the other Harry! So in the hospital-wing he could deduce not only that Harry and Hermione had time-traveled but that they succeeded — he knows Harry and Hermione did accept their time-traveling mission and did come out all right even before he brought up the subject to them! Shocking, right? But TRUE!

And all this time we thought that Dumbledore is telling Harry and Hermione to use Time-Turner, HE ACTUALLY KNEW THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE IT, AND EVEN SUCCEEDED!

Now, in the scene in Hagrid's hut, Dumbledore clearly knew there was time-traveling going and that time-traveling Harry and Hermione had successfully removed Buckbeak. But how could he know that? When Dumbledore walked into the Infirmary (hospital-wing), he obviously could see that Harry and Hermione had not been soul-sucked by the Dementors, and that could not be the case unless Harry and Hermione do in fact time-travel (so that time-traveling Harry can save pre-time-traveling Harry and Hermione; and I have already explained that above). But when he was in Hagrid's hut, he (normally speaking) had no information that Harry and Hermione had time-traveled and yet he acted as if they had. So, now another complicated, critical question comes: how did Dumbledore know in Hagrid's hut that there was time-traveling going on? Could he magically see the second set of Harry and Hermione out there? Did he himself time-travel?

Janes views:

Dumbledore himself is an extraordinary person. There are things he notices that any other person never would and even if he was surprised by this, he is the type of person that can keep his cool under the most pressing of pressures. He is also the type of person who would snoop on the issue so it is possible that his thinking may have led him to the theory (but not a known fact yet) that Harry and Hermione time-traveled. Things kindof fall into place when one accumulates more info and Dumbledore may not have known that it was Harry and Hermione who did it until the moment he proposed the idea.

Well if he is a seer, then he's probably not like professor Trelawney. 😆

That could be a possibility. He does know alot of stuff that others don't. Makes one wonder.

Lakshmiz view:

When u speak pf this "all knowing" quality of Dumbledore, One more prudent example that comes to my mind on this note is Mr Sherlock Holmes, the legendary sleuth created By Sir Arthur Conan Doyle . Those who have read the adventures of this great detective will agree with me when I say that most of the theories he settles on are as quick as intuitions but sounded firmly on logic. All u need to do is Follow the events closely and not in an excited state of Mind. Keep calm and retrace your steps/ retrace the happening. Follow them closely and universally.

I recall One dialogue of Holmes to his sidekick Watson (where he mocks Watson for having made no deductions of value from a happening)..."U 'see' it all My dear Watson, But I 'observe' it all"

Dumbledore is neither using a Time Turner nor is he a Seer. He is a very observant person and I think he often takes this Holmes Route! Dumbledore has studied Human Laws very closely and profoundly and I am not surprised if he can come up with solutions to problems which may seem impossible to be solved to others bcoz he does what others dont. He thinks, He Understands, He calculates, He weighs the possibilities and He finds the answer.

My view:

I respect both of ur logics. I really loved the cyclical theory lakshmi gave....thanks for it (although its still not much clear i will try to think...)

But like Lakshmi have said, that DD is an extra-ordinary person so he understood that Time-travelling's going on, NT because he used time-travel or he is a seer......i dont agree with it....

i think Jane's right here. Of course lakshmi u r rioght too. DD is really an extra-ordinary person, so its a possibility that he understood all these by just CALCULATING things....

But he can also understand these by "time-travelling" or "being a seer"....

I agree with jane, that we never know DD mite have been time-traveling: maybe he dont need a time-turner to do it? after all he's a very powerful wizard...sorry the most poweful wizard...😆😆isnt it lakshmi>>>????

My reply's are written in this format.

Originally posted by: stranger@mirror

OK guys....now heres my views of what Jane and Lakshmi wrote:

KEY:

My question and the things i mentioned: Brown
Janes view: violet...
Lakshmiz view: Deep dark Black
NOW AGAIN MY VIEW IN: Blood-red😃

Labib's view: Can History/Past be changed?

I think it is clear from four things JKR says in the POA that under her theory we can change history:

Hermione tells Harry that "Nobody is supposed to change time" when Harry wants to get the Invisibility Cloak. So what does this sentence implies? This sentence means that no-one is supposed to change time, BUT this does NOT mean that changing time/past/history is impossible. She does not say that changing time is impossible; she didn't say: "Nobody can change time." Thus, changing time might be possible, and it might also NOT be possible. Since J.K.R hasn't written the sentence clearly, it can have both meanings. This was the perfect place for JKR to state that "Nobody can change time" but she makes it clear that we can change time, by saying that "no-body is supposed to change time". Also note that Hermione speaks of "breaking one of the most important wizarding laws." That too must refer to changing history because if history couldn't be changed, then there would have been NO NEED of making the time-turner thing illegal. Laws are against only possible actions. It makes no sense to have a law against something you couldn't do even if you wanted to. I haven't checked the hunting laws in state, but I sure they don't say "You cannot hunt dinosaurs" — it wouldn't make any sense to have such a law since we couldn't hunt extinct animals even if we wanted to. And the same applies here: there would be no law proscribing changing time only if such change is possible.

Hermione tells Harry that McGonagall told her that "loads of [time-traveling wizards and witches] ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake". That is definitely changing history: the "earlier" wizards have been eliminated by time-travel events from the history that produced the time-traveling wizards. How can you go back in time and eliminate someone from history without changing the past/history?

Notice that the whole idea of a wizard "killing" his earlier self does not make any sense unless you can change the past. The problem is that there has to be a change in history to say that someone in the past was killed by a time-traveling wizard.

Harry says "There must be something that happened around now that Dumbledore wants us to change". Also notice that time-traveling-Harry wanted to change things by running out of the forest when he and time-traveling-Hermione were hiding there and getting the Invisibility Cloak and getting Wormtail. She had to grab and stop him. She only expressed concern about being seen, but the fact remains that Harry would have changed history. If Harry had stopped Wormtail or had just gotten the Invisibility Cloak, all the events of that evening from that point on would have changed, and he could have gotten them if Hermione had not intervened.

Dumbledore warns Harry and Hermione about being careful because time-travel's consequences are complicated and unpredictable. But if nothing changes, it does not matter whether we are careless in the past or not. If history is unchangeable, Dumbledore's comment about the consequences being unpredictable is wrong: the consequences would be completely predictable because we know precisely what will happen up to the time of the time- traveling. In fact, there is nothing to predict because we already know exactly what will happen and there is nothing we can do about it. Also, we wouldn't have to be careful since we couldn't change history even if we wanted to. For that matter, you could go back with a machine gun and shoot up the place — or you could take a nuclear bomb and nuke the place — and it wouldn't change anything because the past is "fixed" and unchangeable. Thus, Dumbledore's warning to be careful doesn't make sense unless we might accidentally or intentionally change history.

Can the above four points be explained without the past/history being changeable? If so, then how?

Laksmiz view on this matter:

Now, This questions has arisen a good number of times and seldom have we arrived at an answer that can be accepted by everyone alike. So what I am going to say, may not necessarily appeal to you. If so, plz keep in mind that I am not imposing this view on anyone but this is my view alone, what appeals to my senses and my mind. No two people can be the same, can think the same way. I only endeavor to put my thoughts across well. So this is my thoughts only.

First and foremost, keep in mind, a book or a novel is means of putting your views across. Authors do that thru their books and that is what Rowling does too. Harry Potter is no gospel and so the question that should arise is rather "Does Rowling mean The Past can be Changed" and not "Can the past be changed"-IE: Simply on the basis of HP.

now, your first question was about the usage of "Supposed to" instead "Cannnot ".

See, it has been mentioned in he book very conspicuously about how DANGEROUS it is to meddle with time. Time isnt sumthing that one can play with.

Lets say, What is Done is Done. Its often said how stupid it is to lament over sumthing that hasnt gone the way u wud have liked it to in the past. Its first of all, a waste of time and leads to depression. And so, Time is precious and must be handled Judiciously (as If we dont know that already, what say?! though 'spect many of us dont really do just that, I for one dont~😊)

As for "Breaking the most important Wizarding Law"- I would rather put it as "Breaking the most important law of the nature". Wizards or lesser mortals (Muggles), we all live in the same world with sum laws of NATURE that should be mandatorily followed by BY ALL. WHat has happened has happened, and changing something what has happened, is challenging Destiny and Fate,In short making amends in the truth of nature. Absurd it may sound, for a world which is progressing so fast, This is something that should not be broken. Its a Code of Life. Wizards have the feeling they are the 'superior beings' or at least, many do and so The Wizarding Community s warned that there is no difference or privilege for them in THAT PARTICULAR RULE, Wizards or Muggles, U have to follow that. Dont mess with Time.

Now: "the whole idea of a wizard "killing" his earlier self does not make any sense unless you can change the past."

That may not be the only explanation. Imagine that u have gone back in Time. What has happened b4 is happening now too (in true sense it isnt happening Two times, but The Time Turner just helps u see from the Omniscient Third Person Perspective) But for the time being, U will excuse me for saying "happened B4" and "Happened now" Bcoz I want to make my point clear. And so , back to the point, what has happened b4, the person who has "Travelled thru time" witnesses again. Remember at this time, even if something fatal happens to this 'other you', YOU WILL DIE. Bcoz its YOU all over again, only that the First You doesn't know about this other conscience/reflection. So at the beginning, The "Original you" was ignorant abt the 'second you'. Remember, IN POA movie, Hermione throws a stone at Harry's Head and the 'Second Harry' tells her "Ouch, That Hurt". Its the same u. Both of u feel pain similarly, bcoz u are just U!

But after the Time Turner is Turned, You view matters from the second view, and not the singular view. When U exist, You Have Fear for you life. Only when u KNOW U DO, Will something happen to you that can cost your life. Imagine that the 'second You' dies. Now this Second you is U urself. So U KNOW U ARE DEAD. U are dead only if u know u are dead. so this second you DIES and that means YOU DIE. The past hasnt been altered here. The Lone difference is that, U dared to challenge the nature, and Nature gave u tit for tat and killed YOU rather. A Rule 'tried to be' Broken, a Punishment Suffered...what say? Of course this doesnt ALWAYS Happen, bcoz there are some who are duffers enough to get carried away and arenot careful.

I know this may really sound Mad, But I request you to try to THINK this way and not just 'READ' this. I am sure that will make, if not all, then a bit more sense.😊

Janes views:

Laws were made in the day when people thought that witchs actually existed. "No practicing whichcraft," they said and enacted laws to make sure it didn't (exact laws of how to find out if one was a witch and how to prosecute them). They didn't see people practice witchcraft yet the idea emerged out of nowhere and without a basis. It's simply an idea and when ideas come from fear people tend to "nip it in the bud," as it were, without a validation as to how or if that idea/concept is even remotely possible. It could be that because of this fear the ministry proscribed to take the safe way out and just cover all the levels i.e. just not even chance it. Maybe they don't even know whether it's possible to change the past.

MY (labib's) view:

Hmmmm, i found lakshmiz answer very logical. Thanks lakshmi for making me understand it.

But sorry to say, Jane, i didnt understand ur logic properly. Will u be kind enought to explain me it again?😳

People don't have to experience it for them to enact laws, just the very notion that it may happen is enough for one to pass laws.

Again Jane's view:

AH, those things that crop up that simply doesn't get explained. McGonagall could very well be trying to scare Hermione into not doing more time-traveling then necessary (or she could believe this and this is simply something she is repeating from a story handed down as a precautionary measure for the reason mentioned in my first post). It's like those boogeyman stories parents tell kids, so they'll behave or like telling them that Santa would give the presents if they were good this year.

My view:

Sorry, but i dont think MCgonagal had made a story. I think Lakshmiz point is clearer and more logical. Like Lakshmi said, no matter how many body u occupy, there will actually be one "U". I will request u to read her point, i think thats more appropriate.😛

Yeah, well, me and Lakshmi disagree alot on the finer points. It's her view and her reasoning doesn't make sense to me (the idea opens doors for an inter-dimensional time-travel not time-travel within the same dimension because I'm of the idea that one simply cannot exist if their biological parent had died before conception). However if it makes sense to you, by all means, run with it. These are purely conjecture, anyway.

Jane's view:

However it didn't, Hermione stopped him just in time as she was supposed to do, proscribed by fate.

My view:

Hm....so we cant say anything about this situation since it hasnr happened...😆

Jane's view:

It could be taken as I mentioned before the wizarding world not knowing whether it's possible for someone to time travel.

My view:

Sorry?😕

Maybe you'll understand it now. I elaborated my previous statement

Okkkkk...........about that para of going into the hospital wing, i am not writing that coz i understood both of what u have written😛

Now, even if Harry somehow manages to come to the hospital wing, how did he manage to get pass the dementor (I'm talking about the second time, I mean the time-traveling-Harry)?

We know that after came to the hospital wing magically (after being attacked by the dementors) Harry and Hermione uses the Time-turner to go back in time. They go to the same place, and the time-turner Harry himself witnesses the "other Harry" being attacked by the dementors, (and that time he produces the patronus knowing that he had already "done it".)

But how have he done that?

If the dementors are attacking the "real Harry", it means that the "real Harry" is getting pain. So, if the "real Harry" gets pained and become unconscious, then isn't the "time-traveling-Harry" also supposed to get pain and become unconscious?

Because, we know it very well, that, in the Harry Potter and The Prisoner of Azkaban movie, it is shown that, when the "time-traveling-Hermione" threw a stone into the "real-Harry", the real Harry gets pain, but along with the real Harry, the "time-traveling-Harry" also gets pain!

So what does the above logic explains? It explains that "Harry" is actually one, whether there are "more than one" Harry in the same place, at the same time. And that is why, when the "real-Harry" gets the pain in the forehead, the Harry who has time-traveled (time-traveling-Harry) also gets the pain.

Laksmiz view:

Oh No no absoluely not yaar. No person can exist on a whole as Two Different People.

The Biggest difficulty u need to overcome when u are to do something vital in an asking position is 'TO BELIEVE YOU CAN DO IT'. Often, bcoz u dont have confidence in yourself, U crumble and are unabl to succeed. Confidence can stem from experience. If u have already Done something, U can do it again. Ur Confidence is Boosted. Say, imagine that tomorrow is ur Exam. You are very tensed. Actually U have studied everything, know it all but still fear the D Day. You go off to sleep the night b4 and u have a weird dream where u are writing the exam and u have all the questions b4 ur eyes to feast upon. U know all the answers and u write them all. U wake up the next day but u vaguely remember what u saw, and dont really know if it was a 'Dream' or anything. U go to the Examination hall, and get the Q paper and imagine ur surprise when u see some very very familiar Questions (those u had incidentally chanced to see in ur Dream--which has been the result of Anticipation). U start Writing , this time confidently bcoz Boy U have done it already. U know that u know the answer. So why fear?

This is more or less the case in POA too. At the beginning (read as b4 the Time Turner was used), Harry is unable to cast a real patronus bcoz his nerves are tensed and agitated and he lacks confidence. His happy thoughts are being Sucked out of him. Confidence is a very STRONG AND HAPPY belief / thought and that is being sucked out of him. and So, THIS Harry is unable to produce one. Remember that This is the 'First harry' and so what is FIRST registered in Harry' Mind is what THIS PERSON SEES and Experiences. The Other Harry is just another reflection of this person. He realises that He CAN DO IT bcoz at the beginning he had seen Himself (which he mistook as his dad) produce a patronus and therefore is able to do something bcoz He has alreaDY done it!

The natural question that will arise now is how the 'second harry' cast it AT FIRST when he had not "already done it".

In answer to that, I wud put a question which was asked in Deathly Hallows at the Ravenclaw Tower ie: "Which came first, The Phoenix or the Fire"? The answer given is "Bcoz a circle has no beginning". Its both the same,one cannot be without the other. singularly, nothing can happen.

Similarly, Both the 'first Harry' and The 'Second Harry' are HARRY POTTER Himself. They cannot exist one at a time. They just reflect his different layers of conscience. Its all one huge circle that happens all over again and again. There is No "BEGINNING" or "ending". Everything that has happened has happened b4, We are living in a mirror world.

Janes view on this matter:

No, Harry2 was not feeling the pain at the same time, he was remembering how it felt back when he was hit it.

My view:

(sorry for some reason cudnt write in red...)

Again sorry jane, but i dont think harry was just remembering....i think lakshmiz correct: dementor attacks a person "mentally"...and thats the reason harry2 (time-travelling Harry) wasnt attacked since he tried his best to forget the pain which he is having mentally...

Again, me and Lakshmi don't agree on alot of the finer details however this isn't something that has been put in the book and there certainly wasn't anything about the rock being thrown (I don't consider the movies canon as JK didn't write them and those who did took alot of creative license) or Harry feeling anything to even try to block his mind when he cast the Patronus so there is nothing saying that Harry2 was experiencing pain the same time as Harry1 when they were in the same time period.

Weird but Interesting facts: billions of parallel worlds are created by Hermione!

Some people argue that time-turning creates parallel worlds. If I understand correctly, under the "parallel world" scenario, all the different time-lines go on existing and not get replaced by time-travel. In one world Buckbeak is killed, but in the parallel world created by time-travel Buckbeak never died. And both worlds continue to exist.

Notice that it wasn't just one new world created by Harry and Hermione's time-turning that night. New worlds are created every time anyone ever uses a time-turner. Hermione during the school year had to time-turn for each of two classes that met (I think) twice a week for about thirty to forty weeks, depending on how long the Hogwarts school year is with vacations. That's 4 time- turnings a week for let's say 35 weeks, or a total of 140 time-turnings.

And it is not just 140 new worlds that Hermione created by her time-turning — the worlds multiply exponentially. That is, the first time Hermione used the time-turner, a second world was created with its own Hermione. So now there are two Hermiones who each use the time-turner. So the next time the time-turner has to be used for the next class, these two Hermiones create two more Hermiones. So now there are four Hermiones. So the next time the time-turner is used, eight Hermiones result. So by the end of the first week alone, there are already 16 worlds with 16 Hermiones now using a time-turner. So guys can you imagine how many billions and billions of world our little Hermione has created?

Ok, now I have, using computer-calculator found out that 2 to the power 140 is: !!!

So our little Hermione created millions or billions of new worlds all by herself. And that is not to mention all the previous times that others have used time-turners. All that to explain JKR's remark about "loads of time-traveling witches and wizards killed their past selves." And it doesn't even explain the basic problem of how Harry got passed the dementors to time-travel later that evening. All in all, this seems to be a terribly convoluted explanation. I seriously doubt if JKR had in mind more than just one world. I grant that we can supply an explanation for what an author wrote that the author may not have had in mind, but a far simpler explanation involves altering history and just one world.

And the "parallel worlds" scenario does not help to explain the basic problem of how Harry got passed the dementors to time-travel in the first place.

Lakshmiz view on this matter;

I am not against "Parallel Universe/Multiverse" theory but at least in this case, thats not what happened or so I feel. We are dealing with only one universe here or else, it wud b really weird if JUST THE SAMe THING in the same sequence happened in the parallel world as in he world we live in. Then whats the difference b/w them? They are the Same!

I already said that this is a CYCLE OF happenings. There is no end or beginning for a Circle. Buckbeak had never been executed. He had been saved at the beginning itself by that Harry who had been through the Cycle already, or "The Second Harry" ( ofc with Hermione but I think its better to refer only to ONE person now bcoz otherwise, it will be even more difficult to grasp this theory and I will drive u mad - if I havent already done that, that is! ). The fact that he had witnessed t b4 too is shown well in the Mpovie version. We first see sum stone hotting Harry's Head, a stone which seemed to cum from nowhere. Then after sum time, after the TT is used, we see Hermione 2 throwing the Stone at Harry's Head and we realise that she had been the source of the stone which had earlier been taken as to have cum from nowhere.

The 'first Harry' who is yet to go thru it all (Or rather understand this cycle), doesnt SEE Buckbeak being executed but only HEARS the sound of the axe being lowered into something. Obviously, he took it to have been on Buckbeak's Neck. There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious Fact. Actually, that had never happened. The lone difference, I repeat, is that in POA, We (the reader) saw it twice, each time thru different Perspectives.

Dumbledore knew everything from the very beginning—? Is he some kind of seer, or he himself is using Time-Turner?When u speak pf this "all knowing" quality of Dumbledore, One more prudent example that comes to my mind on this note is Mr Sherlock Holmes, the legendary sleuth created By Sir Arthur Conan Doyle . Those who have read the adventures of this great detective will agree with me when I say that most of the theories he settles on are as quick as intuitions but sounded firmly on logic. All u need to do is Follow the events closely and not in an excited state of Mind. Keep calm and retrace your steps/ retrace the happening. Follow them closely and universally.

I recall One dialogue of Holmes to his sidekick Watson (where he mocks Watson for having made no deductions of value from a happening)..."U 'see' it all My dear Watson, But I 'observe' it all"

Dumbledore is neither using a Time Turner nor is he a Seer. He is a very observant person and I think he often takes this Holmes Route! Dumbledore has studied Human Laws very closely and profoundly and I am not surprised if he can come up with solutions to problems which may seem impossible to be solved to others bcoz he does what others dont. He thinks, He Understands, He calculates, He weighs the possibilities and He finds the answer.

When Dumbledore reaches in the hospital-wing, he knew it very well, that Harry and Hermione have used time-turner and they have even succeeded before even Dumbledore brought the subject to them! Sounds shocking, isn't it? But if you follow proper logic, then this is definitely true! It means that when Harry and Hermione (and the readers of HP) were thinking Dumbledore is telling Harry and Hermione to use time-turner, he actually knew that THEY HAVE FINISHED USING TIME-TURNER!Bang On...Think doesnot this suit the "Cyclic" theory I mentioned above? Deep in you Mind, If u prod it u have the answers...the essential explanations. I believe Dumbledore does that very often. Albus Dumbledore knew all along that The Time Turner had been Used bcoz it was destined to be used at that time. He knew that McNair had cut open the Pumpkin and not Buckbeak (sumthing that the First Harry' with Ron and Hermy had failed to register). He had understood it at that time. He had one glass of Brandy with Hagrid (lolz) and thought over it...he did all those things I mentioned earlier and he understood what had been done and what will be done. All his understanding are sounded on Logic. Some things cant but Follow one Route.

Janes view here:

They're traveling through their own dimension not creating alternate dimensions. The time travelers are not from parallel worlds they're from another time in the same world. It's an endless cycle, we don't know when the first Harry the time traveler started (in a cycle there isn't a starting point) because they've all been through the same exact things and are doing the same exact things. (Hope that jargon made sense).

My view:

sorry jane and lakshmi....i havent understood any of u...explain again!

I don't think it can get any simpler so I'll explain another way. I think you're confusing time-traveling with choices. Alternate dimensions are created from each choice we make (at least that's my take on it) not simply because someone chose to use a time-turner (which is also another choice but it's not the only one and the only reason for alternate dimensions).

Dumbledore knew everything from the very beginning—? Is he some kind of seer, or he himself is using Time-Turner?

When Dumbledore reaches in the hospital-wing, he knew it very well, that Harry and Hermione have used time-turner and they have even succeeded before even Dumbledore brought the subject to them! Sounds shocking, isn't it? But if you follow proper logic, then this is definitely true! It means that when Harry and Hermione (and the readers of HP) were thinking Dumbledore is telling Harry and Hermione to use time-turner, he actually knew that THEY HAVE FINISHED USING TIME-TURNER!

You all are becoming confused, eh? Ok, let me tell you how this happened….

We all know it very well that Harry and Hermione were attacked by dementors, and that's where the chapter 'Dementor's Kiss' ends. But surprisingly, the next chapter, 'Hermione's secrets' start like this that: Harry and Hermione are inside the hospital wing. But how is that possible?

If the dementors attacked Harry and Hermione, then HOW ON EARTH HAVE HARRY AND HERMIONE MANAGED TO REACH THE HOSPITAL-WING?

The only answer to this question can be that: someone had saved Harry and Hermione from the dementors…now we all know that Harry sees his "father", which is actually the "time-traveling-Harry" on the other side of the river, who PRODUCES the patronus which eventually saves Harry and Hermione (although its not clear how they reached the hospital-wing, it's very much clear that they are saved by the "time-traveling" version of them.

So you people got what I'm saying? All I am saying is that Harry and Hermione were saved by the "time-traveling-Harry".

Now, the main point comes. When, Dumbledore entered the hospital-wing in the chapter 'Hermione's secret', he would, AT FIRST, obviously become surprised that how Harry and Hermione have managed to come here while they were supposed to be attacked by dementors. So, Dumbledore used the logic I gave, that the only way they could survive from the dementors is that the "time-traveling-Harry" saved the other Harry! So in the hospital-wing he could deduce not only that Harry and Hermione had time-traveled but that they succeeded — he knows Harry and Hermione did accept their time-traveling mission and did come out all right even before he brought up the subject to them! Shocking, right? But TRUE!

And all this time we thought that Dumbledore is telling Harry and Hermione to use Time-Turner, HE ACTUALLY KNEW THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE IT, AND EVEN SUCCEEDED!

Now, in the scene in Hagrid's hut, Dumbledore clearly knew there was time-traveling going and that time-traveling Harry and Hermione had successfully removed Buckbeak. But how could he know that? When Dumbledore walked into the Infirmary (hospital-wing), he obviously could see that Harry and Hermione had not been soul-sucked by the Dementors, and that could not be the case unless Harry and Hermione do in fact time-travel (so that time-traveling Harry can save pre-time-traveling Harry and Hermione; and I have already explained that above). But when he was in Hagrid's hut, he (normally speaking) had no information that Harry and Hermione had time-traveled and yet he acted as if they had. So, now another complicated, critical question comes: how did Dumbledore know in Hagrid's hut that there was time-traveling going on? Could he magically see the second set of Harry and Hermione out there? Did he himself time-travel?

Janes views:

Dumbledore himself is an extraordinary person. There are things he notices that any other person never would and even if he was surprised by this, he is the type of person that can keep his cool under the most pressing of pressures. He is also the type of person who would snoop on the issue so it is possible that his thinking may have led him to the theory (but not a known fact yet) that Harry and Hermione time-traveled. Things kindof fall into place when one accumulates more info and Dumbledore may not have known that it was Harry and Hermione who did it until the moment he proposed the idea.

Well if he is a seer, then he's probably not like professor Trelawney. 😆

That could be a possibility. He does know alot of stuff that others don't. Makes one wonder.

Lakshmiz view:

When u speak pf this "all knowing" quality of Dumbledore, One more prudent example that comes to my mind on this note is Mr Sherlock Holmes, the legendary sleuth created By Sir Arthur Conan Doyle . Those who have read the adventures of this great detective will agree with me when I say that most of the theories he settles on are as quick as intuitions but sounded firmly on logic. All u need to do is Follow the events closely and not in an excited state of Mind. Keep calm and retrace your steps/ retrace the happening. Follow them closely and universally.

I recall One dialogue of Holmes to his sidekick Watson (where he mocks Watson for having made no deductions of value from a happening)..."U 'see' it all My dear Watson, But I 'observe' it all"

Dumbledore is neither using a Time Turner nor is he a Seer. He is a very observant person and I think he often takes this Holmes Route! Dumbledore has studied Human Laws very closely and profoundly and I am not surprised if he can come up with solutions to problems which may seem impossible to be solved to others bcoz he does what others dont. He thinks, He Understands, He calculates, He weighs the possibilities and He finds the answer.

My view:

I respect both of ur logics. I really loved the cyclical theory lakshmi gave....thanks for it (although its still not much clear i will try to think...)

But like Lakshmi have said, that DD is an extra-ordinary person so he understood that Time-travelling's going on, NT because he used time-travel or he is a seer......i dont agree with it....

i think Jane's right here. Of course lakshmi u r rioght too. DD is really an extra-ordinary person, so its a possibility that he understood all these by just CALCULATING things....

But he can also understand these by "time-travelling" or "being a seer"....

I agree with jane, that we never know DD mite have been time-traveling: maybe he dont need a time-turner to do it? after all he's a very powerful wizard...sorry the most poweful wizard...😆😆isnt it lakshmi>>>????

I congratulate all three of you for your endurance with this topic.

After reading these posts, I must say that I agree with Jane about the point of 2nd. Harry feeling pain (from the stone atleast). I don't think he did. He was merely pointing out that at the time he was hurt by the stone hitting him and not that he was experiencing the pain again. All we really have to do is examine the tone and expressions used by the 2nd. Harry in the movie to realize if he was actually experiencing the pain then or whether he was experiencing "phantom pain" by the memory. I belive that he was just remembering. The movies does take alot of creative licence and you were right Jane, in saying that that was not in the book.

On the point of Dumbledore instinctively knowing, I have to agree with Lakshmi on that point, in that in that he figured everything out a la Sherlock Homes, because if Dumbledore could have time travelled it would have been revealed in one of the other novels atleast. In any event, why would he have wanted the Deathly Hallows especially teh Resurection Stone, if he had the ability to manipulate time (and by extension History). I also don't believe that he was a Seer or he would have been able to fortell the future in many other instances also throughout the novels and possibly stop things from happening. It is logical to believe that He logically came about his assumptions as to what was actually occuring.

Just my very short opinion (in comparison to everyone else's). I stand my the thought that tis topic is open to the interpretation of the reader

Very intriguing and interesting topic. Time travel is an in-depth matter. I will have to read all the details and refer to other time traveling works to give my detailed perception on time travel.