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Sabhayata thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: AnuMP

Yudhi -


Yes Yudhi did make a single day's error. But the error shows an attitude towards treating his citizens, his brothers and his wife as property. On top of that a description is given of Panchali that is as detailed as though a horse were being auctioned off. And no, that does not merely describe her looks and her capabilities.



Karna -

I am willing to buy that the name calling did not happen because even Krishna and Panchali do not mention either this or VH afterward and am inclined to look on it as interpolation.



Bold that is more of Vyasa's writing style

There have been other incidents where other character's have described certain other character's in similar way as well

This is Arjuna describing drishtdyumna

his hero endued with that energy and strength and resembling the very lion in his frame of body and prowess, and possessed of leonine shoulders, arms, chest, and voice like the lion's roar; this hero of great effulgence; this warrior of handsome brows, fine teeth, round cheeks, long arms, of stout make, excellent thighs, large expansive eyes, excellent legs, and strong frame; this prince who is incapable of being penetrated by weapons of any kind, and who looks like an elephant with rent temples


Then Krishna ji also describes Karna like this in a similar way

As regards speed, he is equal to the impetuosity of the wind. In wrath, he resembles the Destroyer himself. Endued with might, he resembles a lion in the formation of his body. He is eight ratnis in stature. His arms are large. His chest is broad. He is invincible. He is sensitive. He is a hero. He is, again, the foremost of heroes.


Its more because of how Vyasa writes

Krishna ji and Drau don't mention the VH but do mention the words

This is Draupadi during Kamyaka van

'Husbands, or sons, or friends, or brothers, or father, have I none! Nor have I thee, O thou slayer of Madhu, for ye all, beholding me treated so cruelly by inferior foes, sit still unmoved! My grief at Karna's ridicule is incapable of being assuaged! On these grounds I deserve to be ever protected by thee, O Kesava, viz., our relationship, thy respect (for me), our friendship, and thy lordship (over me)

Then Krishna ji during Udyoga parva also mentions that karna's words have struck deep in Arjuna's heart.Altough those words are some different words

Also Bhima does remember the disrobing at least twice once when he kills Dushashan and second when he kills dury

The mighty-armed Bhima of inconceivable feats, O king, beholding Duhshasana (in that plight), and recollecting the seizure of Draupadi's tresses and her disrobing while she was ill,--indeed, the innocent Bhima, reflecting also upon the diverse other wrongs inflicted on that princess while her husbands sat with faces turned away from the scene, blazed up in wrath like fire fed with libations of clarified butter.

Having struck Duryodhana down, the valiant Bhimasena, approaching the Kuru chief, addressed him, saying, "O wretch, formerly laughing at the disrobed Draupadi in the midst of the assembly, thou hadst, O fool, addressed us as 'Cow, Cow!' Bear now the fruit of that insult!"

So both are mentioned after the actual dice hall incident .But ya Draupadi never mentions the VH herself and also VH isnt mentioned as often as the dragging and the words.So there is inconsistency here

Edited by Sabhayata - 10 years ago
Sabhayata thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra

There are two versions of this. However, in both versions, it is Indra who asks Karna to ask him anything he wanted because Indra could not go without giving anything whenever he met a human. In one version, he gives Vasavi & Karna accepts it and in another he makes Karna beautiful by vanishing all marks of cutting his armour.


Jamy but in the detailed KMG version Karna asks for Indra's shakti before giving his KK

But ya he does so because Surya dev asks him to do so

When Surya dev comes to warn karna at that time karna says several times that no matter what he will give away his KK to which Surya dev says that if you are so determined then ask for Indra's shakti as well

And that is what karna does

However in KMG in Adi parva it says twice that Indra gave away his shakti because he was impressed

So there are two different versions in KMG itself

Sabhayata thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: AnuMP

Sabhayata

All of the above can be explained as a woman having an extraordinary amount of influence on 2 men, Bheem and Arjun, which cannot be explained away by a narrow minded society which then proceeds to sanitize it without realizing it does not need sanitizing

Bheem - She did go to Yudhi first. Then when he did not cooperate, she decided to take matters into her own hands. Who else does she go to to kill another muscle man? Not only that, she knew Bheem was more likely to listen to her.

Arjun - she missed him, so what? You can miss people without being married to them. Besides, her pain was higher at the 5 year separation than the 12 year one after the wedding? Something does not compute here. ArDi convo after Subhi makes no sense to me whatsoever. In the middle of a narrative about this mega story, Vyasa placed a para in there indicating her jealousy? Nothing screams interpolation mote than that. IIRC, Drau-Satya convo begins by Satya asking how to make Krishna obedient. All of Panchali's answers can apply to one as well as 5.

Besides, being married to just Yudhi explains all the actual events instead of just expressions of emotions


Its not about the influence but that fact that panchali readily and always used that influence

No way is that possible if they were just brother in law and sister in law

Bhima-The way she goes to Bhima and all that she says to to him.Bhima hugging her wiping her tears cupping her face.Things that she says to him.This cant be the interaction between a brother in law and sister in law

then again in front of yudi after yudi refuses to go after ashwi she goes to Bhima and says she knows only he will do what she wants and she says that in front of yudi

Bima being the only one taking vows to avenge Drau during and after DS cant be explained by just saying he was a BIL

The only other way to explain this is that Bhima and Drau had secret feelings for each other that they had no issues in showing in front of others.Which is certainly not the case

Arjuna-No she didnt merely say i miss him.She says that her pain at her speration with Arjuna is higher than what she felt when Dushy called her a cow.And this too in front of Yudi.Again this is no sister in law talking about her brother in law

Well Drau and Arjuana conversation after subhi marriage is there so it cant just be ignored

THis is how stayabhama and drau's conversation begins

'By what behaviour is it, O daughter of Drupada, that thou art able to rule the sons of Pandu--those heroes endued with strength and beauty and like unto the Lokapalas themselves? Beautiful lady, how is it that they are so obedient to thee and are never angry with thee? Without doubt the sons of Pandu, O thou of lovely features, are ever submissive to thee and watchful to do thy bidding!Tell me, O lady, the reason of this. Is it practice of vows, or asceticism, or incantation or drug at the time of the bath (in season) or the efficacy of science, or the influence of youthful appearance, or the recitation of particular formulae, or Homa, or collyrium and other medicaments? Tell me now, O princess of Panchala, of that blessed and auspicious thing by which, O Krishna, Krishna may ever be obedient to me

She is clearly talking about more than one husband

The thing is that Drau being only married to Yudi doesn't explain a lot of things infact most things have to be considered an interpolation

1)Last part of swyambara parva will need to be an interpolation

2)Vavahika parva will need to be an interpolation(in which she marries pandavas)

3)Parts of kamyaka parva will need to be interpolation(since Drau mentions several times that she married to all 5)

4)Parts in Drauapdi harna parva will need to be interpolation(since again drau mentions several times that she is married to all 5)

5)Kichaka badha parva will need to be an interpolation atleast the things Drau says to Bhima if not the whole parva

6)Drau-arjuna conversation post subhi marriage will need to be an interpolation

7)Drau saying that she the pain she feels in missing arjuna an interpolations

8)Dray-staybham parva an interpolation since not only staybahma mentions drau being married to all 5 but even drau mentions that she has kids from 5 brother's

SO to many things will need to be considered as additions or changes or interpolations

There is consistency in the fact that she was married to all five all throughout the epic



Edited by Sabhayata - 10 years ago
Brahmaputra thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: bhas1066


could you pls paste here the link fo the lines in bold - cause there are as many citations in KMG that karna studied under drona!!!

ADI PARVA -

Then Drona endued with great prowess taught the sons of Pandu (the use of) many weapons both celestial and human. And, O bull of the Bharata race, many other princes also flocked to that best of Brahmanas for instruction in arms. The Vrishnis and the Andhakas, and princes from various lands, and the (adopted) son of Radha of the Suta caste, (Karna), all became pupils of Drona. But of them all, the Suta child Karna, from jealousy, frequently defied Arjuna, and supported by Duryodhana, used to disregard the Pandavas.


VANA PARVA -

Karna to Surya:

"Thou knowest, O deity, that I have great strength of weapons obtained from Jamadagnya and the high-souled Drona."


SANTI PARVA -

Endued with great energy, that child came to have the status of a Suta. He subsequently acquired the science of weapons from the preceptor (Drona), that foremost descendant of Angirasa's race.


Honestly, I thought it is Sabhayata who replied, while reading through my phone.😆 See, I guess I have to explain a bit more before giving any citation on Rama, so that you can have no doubts regarding this. Please bear with this post. It will be lengthy.😛

The problem is we are always analysing based on Yudhi's timeline. So, for this one, we have to go for Karna's & Drona's timeline & their life events to see what they were doing. Please do check respective chapters if I do not give any active links.


Karna's timeline


So this clears Karna grew up in Anga, not in HP.


This tells us Adhiratha was very keen & strict in doing all infant rituals (Kumara Samskara) of Karna, as the same way they were described in scriptures. Now you should think Adhiratha got Brahmanas to do the birth rites & naming of Karna, (it is also mentioned chapter 307 of Vana parva) which was very unusual for a Suta. Kumara smaskaras include all rituals performed till the boy attains 16 years. Among these samskaras, Vedarambha or education begins at the age of 5/6. So it is very unlikely that the strict Adhiratha who himself supervised every rituals till Karna's marriage did not send Karna for education at 5/6. That means Karna began his education at 5/6.


From MB itself, Karna was 16 years elder to Yudhishthira. And when Kunti & Ps returned HP after Pandu's death, Yudhi was 16. Still, their education under Drona began at least 1 year later as ususaly no Shubha Karyas are done in the first year following father's death. So Karna was 33 at the time when Yudhi began studying under Drona.. It is impossible to assume Adhiratha did not send Karna to a teacher for long 28 years.

From the age I calculatd, Karna was 5 years elder to Yudhi & he was 11 years old when Yudhi began learning. Still, that has the the above same problem.

Drona did not began teaching Kuru princes because of his interest in teaching or for charity. He wanted to take revenge on Drupada which he clears and Arjuna promised him that he would fulfill Drona's wish. We cannot assume Drona, who himself was a great warrior failed to recognise the spark in Arjuna & continued to accept other students even after that. Still, if we check the student list of Drona, only Karna belonged to a lower caste whch itself is suspicious when Drona began teaching for a particular purpose. And Karna, being a suta putra was of no use for him as he already got Arjuna.

Again Karna mysteriously disapperas from Drona's student list. when Drona held the final test for his students, Karna was not there. It is impossible to assume Karna, who made his mark above everyone in the arena contest, was unable to pass that test held just some days ago.

And in the arena, no one seems to have recognised Karna. Since Karna bowed indiffeently to Drona & Kripa, it is clear that he never knew them before. Also, had everyone known Karna before, there would have been no need for Kripa to ask Karna to introduce himself & Yudhishthira would never have been impressed with the belief that there was no warrior on earth like unto Karna.


So that confirms the fact that Karna did never study in HP, along with Kuru princes, under Drona.😛


Now, we need to explore any chances of Karna learning under Drona before Drona reached HP as it was Drona who gave permission to him to perform in the arena. For that, we need to check what Drona was doing before he reached HP.


Drona's timeline.

In short, from Adi Parva, Drona lived around the place of origin of Ganga, learned under his father along with Drupada, got married at proper age, continued learning himself at his own hermitage, then went to Rama to learn about advanced weapons, returned home, saw his poverty, went to seek Drupada's help, got humiliated, felt anger, reached HP, lived hidden, played a cheap trick with little princes, made Bheeshma to agree with making Drona HP's teacher.

In this, it is nowhere mentioned that Drona was a guru before he reached HP. Even if we assume he was a Guru before, that too will be disproved by the facts-
1) Drupada's insult - no king would treat a Guru the way Drupada treated Drona. Had Drona been a poor teacher also, he would never have done that. Also Drona would not have requested to Drupada, he would have commanded instead.
2) Drona's trick in HP - had he been a Guru already, he would not have needed the ring drama to reach Bheeshma. Bheeshma himself would have came asking him to teach his grand-kids.

So that proves Drona was nowhere a Guru before he reached HP & no chances existed for Karna to learn under him before Drona reached HP.⭐️


Now, any available citations proving who was Karna's guru.

1) Karna is always, always praised as Parashurama shishya, numerous times, in MB. had he been a student of Drona at some stage, he would have been praised for that at least once, which we hardly can find.


That bold part clearly says Parashurama taught whole science of weapons to Karna.😃 So it is better we assume that he was a student of Parashurama alone.⭐️

Not only that, geographically, Anga, today probably in Bihar - WB, was almost 1400 km away from HP (near current Delhi). But Mahendra mountains, the eastern most sections of today's Eastern ghats, where Parashurama lived, was just 300-400 km away from Anga. It does not seem logical that Adhiratha sent Karna too far away to study under an unknown Drona, than sending him to the famous Parashurama who stayed nearer.😊

From all these, it appears to me that Karna studying under Drona is a big big interpolation & the editor did a really bad job by forgetting to edit the other events.😉



Brahmaputra thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
Please neglect typos in above post. Just saw there are many.😆
Brahmaputra thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
@Sabhayata - Regarding the Kamyaka vana conversation of Draupadi you quoted, saying Karna ridiclued her, Sanskrit versions do not have anu word meaning 'ridicule' in that line. The actual word used there is 'praahasan' (long aa in PRAA) which means to laugh / to smile where as the word for ridicule is 'Prahasana' (short a in PRA). Both words are entirely different & based on Sanskrit versions including CE, we cannot consider Karna verbally insulted Draupadi, from that particular line.
Brahmaputra thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: AnuMP

You know how they say too much coffee is bad for you? Well, I gave up coffee (at least till tomorrow) and I am blaming this thought on caffeine withdrawal.


I believe that Karna's daddy was the sage Durvasa. I read Indrajeet Bandhyopadyay's article on it. He equates Surya as well as Agni to Angiras. Well 2 people I know in the epic from Angiras clan in that case are Karna and Panchali.

Both their bio Papas are unknown. What if they both shared the same daddy?😆

My friends, when you wake up from your collective fainting, please do post your thoughts.😆

At least I did not faint, Anu. I have always thought why are these two behaving so similar! But I doubt whether Karna's father was Durvasa. Just mellifluous speech & yellow-blue complexion alone cannot turn fake Durvasa into Surya. Indrajeet has written that article with preconcieved idea that Karna was born to that fake Durvasa, which was actually Iravati Karwe's theory. So he did not do any search beyond searching for any connection between those two. And that fake Durvasa caould never be the father of Draupadi. She was nowhere like him. This is what I thinks.
Brahmaputra thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: Brishti_Sarkar

Guys.. Let us make the mood a bit light. Idk what u all are discussing..didnt read any post..but thought of sharing this link here.. Maybe we can have some fun discuaaion for a few pages if you want to.

http://m.indiatimes.com/entertainment/bollywood/if-mahabharata-was-made-in-bollywood-we-would-cast-these-amazing-actors-to-play-the-most-iconic-roles-229289.html

Check this out and tell me if you agree or not!

I almost got my inestines chocked looking at Bachchan & imagining Bheeshma sitting like that.😆 I did not like the cast selection except Bheeshma. I felt they could have read MB a little to know how each character looked.
Sanskruthi thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
Thanx for writing that Jamy😛 Adharmis r still twisted😆😈
Brahmaputra thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: .Sanskruti

Thanx for writing that Jamy😛 Adharmis r still twisted😆😈

No mentions Sanzi... Adharmi itself means Not Dharmi. Dharma also means 'one who drinks soma' (tequila of olden times). So Adharmi stands for someone who does not drink at all. When not drunk, that person will speak right. And when drunk, he may even stake...ssshhh...no no phleeeashhh...no mhore uttering of words. Bhagvaan krodhit ho jaayegaa...😆
Edited by Brahmaputra - 10 years ago

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