Muslims in western countries are insecure of their own culture? - Page 3

Originally posted by: Shona_Mayur

Saying that western countries provide free healthcare services and jobs is a generalization.Do you really think that every western country has free healthcare (especially for immigrants)? Let me give you America as an example. Before saying anything further, I just wanted to point out that I am also an American citizen. I have been living here for the longest time and I have faced facets of life here as well. So, I, very much, count myself as an American. Believe me when I say that I am trying my best to present this situation from a sociological perspective.

Did you know that muslim females are feminists as well? Why do I bring that up first? Because they are against the objectification of women. It's funny how this logic works, right? You say that Muslims objectify women, but did you stop and research about why they ask woman to cover up? Did you also know that men in Muslim religion are supposed to have a hijab? They are not supposed to look at women out of respect, and objectify them in some way (by thinking of them sexually, which happens more than you'd think when an attractive women passes by). I am pretty sure you're going to say that not all men objectify women just because they're not all covered. That's not what I am saying at all. I am just saying that Muslims believe in intellect above all, rather than physical beauty (whether it's male or female). Did you know that their headscarf/hijab wasn't meant as a sign of oppression but as a sign of looking beyond the outer beauty and onto intellect? It's a sign of liberation above all of these norms that we have to follow in our society reciting that women have to look pretty to get noticed. Did you also know that men tend to listen to pay more attention to attractive women? It's inherently social (and yes, I am psychology student as well). Why do you think we have so many eating disorders or any other social disorders more common in women these days? It's because of highly stupid expectations of women from the media. Islam as a religion promotes enlightenment and liberates women from all of these norms and notions for women that objectify women as sex objects so they look sexy on magazine covers and music videos. Western media has sexualized women greatly (as per a lot of scholars today). Many people, who are not familiar with the religion, tend to attack it by the view that the media promotes. I highly recommend everyone to not do that.

Also, you're telling me that I am looking at things from one perspective. But I feel the same when I read your comment. I feel that you're not willing to look past your bias about Islam. You're saying that Islam is against homosexuality, but so are many other religions. Why are you forgetting other major religions? Christianity being among them. If individual christian chooses not to follow that then it's on them, same as if individual Muslim doesn't choose to focus on that one ideology. I keep on seeing you only refer to things to Islam, completely failing to look at others as well. I won't comment further on this because these topics tend to get very controversial. And I want to stick to social phenomenons. [Side note: I am not trying to defend one religion by saying that others do it too. My main concern is that you've explicitly pointed out a phenomenon in Islam which is shared by other religions which you didn't point out.]

Did you know that there are anti-immigrant protest going on in US? A lot of people get so mad that immigrant come and "take" their job without realizing that it's the merits and capabilities that matter as well. Not only that, there's a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment going on here (which is quite funny seeing as America itself is land of immigrants and the only true "Americans" are Native Americans).

I was at a grocery shop once. Some lady asked me something and I didn't hear a word she said because I was busy reading label of some product. When I looked at her, she was really exasperated and said something like why are you in this American. I said. "excuse me?!" and she was really flustered because she realized I knew English. The funny thing is that I was merely another brown colored individual, not even any other difference. You're making racism out to be very insignificant as if offering services as healthcare (which, with insurance costs, really doesn't help a lot of poor people and is usually designed to help with well-off crowd) and (mostly low paying) jobs out to be a compensation to deal with Racism. That's no excuse. Many immigrants don't even end up getting good jobs in western countries, but people don't even realize that. They are so hell-bent on thinking that west provides for everyone who comes.

I am NOT saying that West doesn't do that for many other individuals. No, America has many assets like free public education, Government aid and scholarships, food stamps for the poor and other great resources. BUT we can't not look at the follies.

I am not saying that the Western government have to bend to their every whims. However, they still do hold the rights to protest because they're mostly like not doing it because they think that women need to be oppressed. In Islamic religion, and let's not distort it with Culture, women are allowed to go out and sought for enlightenment and in fact are encouraged. It's the same with male. Those people protesting the gym being near the mosque may find that unacceptable because they consider mosque to be a place for sacred worship where they glorify religion and it may be offensive to them in that regards. Honestly, I am guessing that they would probably just move their mosque (or at least I would). I still don't understand why the notion of women covering up is so hard to grasp or swallow for some people? I mean, we are all familiar with nuns. They're considered to be so pure and close to god when they give up practically similar things for the notion of pursuing God and yet no one seems to have a problem with them. Yet, Muslim women who cover are automatically labeled as oppressed. That's double standards.

You know if there's one thing I love about America, it's the fact that I actually got to learn about true Islam here. I honestly think that if I were in another country like India (because that's where my parents are from and that's where I was born - before I came here at a very young age) then I may have mistaken into thinking that they are oppressed and I may have been victim of Islamophobia - due to a lot of cultural norms associated with religion there - but I am glad that that didn't happen! I have NEVER seen another woman like my friend who is muslim and more of a feminist than I will ever be (and I consider myself deeply feministic). She doesn't care about what other people think, regardless of it being a guy or girl. She believes in equal rights and treatments. She rejects the unreasonable norms of society (which is the true meaning of feminism). She does what she likes and she doesn't have to care for her appearance. She is the most confident and broad-minded person I have met. She's more free than me, and I don't even wear hijab, nor am I tied by religion like her! When I see the world through her eyes, even I get shocked at how judgmental we are as human beings, myself included. It's actually quite sad that people don't realize their own inner reservations sometimes. I am not asking anyone to convert to Islam - just to be more open to the people. There's nothing wrong with that, right?

Also, you said about the women having the right to show her breast in Canada. One example I can give you is that separate countries have separate rules. Do that in front of a catholic church in America and they will protest the heck out of it. I am not saying that women should or shouldnt have those rights. I am just saying that everyone has different view of feminism. According to you, physical freedom counts as feminism but according to Islam, Men and women should be covered and have respectable distance so they could have platonic relationship and delve in professionalism. That's their feminism. They could have intellectual pursuits (after all, let's not forget the 'Islamic golden age' that happened at the same time as European dark ages - no one ever brings the intellect there, do they? Because media never tends to go back in time on how the "Islamic culture" created the notion for the first hospitals, the toothbrush or the first university and other inventions that we modified today). It's rather sad that people only choose to look at what media shows. Look beyond the biases and you will see the sea of truths. That's a very wise saying, indeed.

I completely see where you're coming from. There are various perspectives to this debate. And as you mentioned, one cannot generalize one population since there are different phenomena involved. However, one can always beware of the Euro-centric form of thinking that we, as westerners, may be victims to. We need to be critical as well of our own society that we grew up in. Just because a society is different doesn't mean that they're entirely wrong. They get repelled because they think we're trying to transform them, just like we get repelled when we think that they're trying to force us into making too many accommodations for them. If we learn to look at things from both perspectives, then perhaps we will have less wars? We can only grow as a civilization if we start to learn from other cultures and religion, and if we decide to actually research thoroughly on it before having pre-conceived biases.

Thank you for all the insightful comments👏...I couldnt have said it any better, and I appreciate it, its not easy explaining the hijab and what its meant for, especially to people of other faiths.

Originally posted by: bramcote46

Just stumbled across this topic and saw an interesting debate going on .

Even i want to know what is muslim culture and how are muslims not adopting western culture and actually what is western culture ???

I also live in UK, work and pay my taxes , don't take any benefit from govt, now and then do some voluntry work, wear both western as well as traditional clothes, speak english , drive, abide by all the laws and rules , go to lunch /dinner parties with my colleagues and friends and as far as i think i am doing enough for anyone to think that i am doing my bit to be a good british apart from proudly following my muslim religion too .

What i am not doing after living in a western country is wearing short dresses and going to pub or smoking or using cussing words etc etc and here i am not saying that those who do these are bad people , all i am saying is that these things come as a restrictions with me being muslim and i am happy and satisfied with following the restrictions and never felt the need to go against my religion to do these forbidden things . But if this is the only part which leds people to say that i am not fitting in with western culture then i am sorry but i am happy as the way i am.

So even i want to know what more can i do for people to say that this person is a muslim as well as fitting into a western society.

Originally posted by: Eric.Engineer

Honestly, you are being too defensive. I have no idea how you being a grade A citizen in UK justifies this discussion. We are not taking about you, or your sect of Islam. Rather, we are taking about specific cases -

I heard there are major problems in the UK in regards to assimilation. Areas being patrolled by some folks declaring it sharia zone and girls told to cover up, gays beaten up. People drinking being harassed, and so forth.

Yeah - that raises a lot of eyebrows.

Originally posted by: Eric.Engineer

You can use as much rhetorics as you want, but there have been far too many bad apples in the bunch, and enough of them to warrant a discussion.

By the way, I do think racism is one of the biggest underlining reasons in this issue. Where do I personally stand: well, I think the states should do more to in terms of reducing workplace discrimination, making it easier for migrants to get their skills reconized, and so forth...

Places like Canada are very secular, so you have to realize that all religions are seen as a threat - but especially Islam, because you have a enough people who take their religious views to a whole new level and push it on society.

You want to wear a headscarf, fine - but what if your daugther does not want to. Where should the state draw the line between freedom of religion and freedom to choose?

I am not trying to say all muslims are bad - but just that, there have been enough cases to warrant a discussion.

Well, to be honest - I feel like you are not able to see the other side of the story, and you feel the same way about me. So we both have different opinions, let us leave it at that. ;)

Originally posted by: -Believe-

Many western people do misinterpret Islam and muslims... There are people within the religion too who give it a bad name..but refuse to change with time doesn't make them evil, terrorism prone or whatever..If the true muslims come forward and voice their opinion against the extremists chances are this could change the worlds perspective of muslims... until then... sad but true... stereotyping amongst common man will be a reality...

Originally posted by: Eric.Engineer

Well, to be honest - I feel like you are not able to see the other side of the story, and you feel the same way about me. So we both have different opinions, let us leave it at that. ;)

Originally posted by: Shona_Mayur

I don't really have time to answer to every aspects of your arguments right now but I do want to talk about the bolded aspect. Islam doesn't endorse force. It's people who do that. Religion is a set of beliefs that people interpret in different ways. Why do you think Islam has different sects? Islam, in every sect that I am aware of, would not consider you a Muslim if you have not internalized those beliefs and actually do believe in them. If you're forced to do something and don't actually have faith then whatever you do would be meaningless. Therefore, parents don't usually do that, no matter how much outside people tend to believe that. Majority of the people wearing scarf have a connection with it and would not give it up unless it's something dire - social isolation, violence, etc. Hijabis in a study were asked about their will to wear this head scarf and they were completely fine with it. You're making all of these assumption based on what facts?

Also, most of people that I know in America only wear hijabs because they want to. A lot of people start wearing it later on in life because they WANT to. Not because parents forced them.

In the scenarios that parents force them, they're usually for protection. I know that in India, especially in dangerous area, parents generally ask girls to wear because of the incidents like Gang rapes and other horrifying things. I still remember that my friend said that she wore a hijab in Lucknow and was so scared of these 4 guys who were trying to hit on her. Luckily, she was smart about it and got rid of them. But not everyone gets lucky. Parents can't always be there for the girls and they can't exactly hire bodyguards for their protection. If you're blaming Islam for everything, then I say you blame corruption in our countries that can't even warrant safety of young girls!

Also, you keep on saying that there are enough bad apples. What do you mean by that? There are 1.6 billion Muslims around the world. That's a lot of them. And you're making an insanely Gross generalization here. You're saying that some terrorists that the western media has so generously popularized become the face of all of these billions of people. So you're saying that all the German soldiers who helped Hitler during his tyrannic reign make up for all the German population at that time? That's seriously the most ridiculous argument I have heard.

And yes, I do mean when I say that has to do a lot with Media. Because the only terrorists that I see actually being popularize is Muslims. What about the Chapel hill killings? Or another time when an American person went into the Mosque with a bomb, intending to blow up all Muslim. Media never even mentioned incidences like those. There are so many incidences of violence and hate crimes that are committed against Muslims. And there are many that are not committed by Muslims either. So, again, I really really recommend that you do some statistically search about how many terrorists actually exist and how many crimes are actually going on. Because if there's one thing I learned, it's the fact that famous news channels bend down to the whims of Western conservatives.

I can't change your opinion because you don't even seem to want to look at another side. You keep on mentioning these points that could be an issue in any general religion. A lot of Mormons (who people so readily judge) don't exactly want to always live in limiting circumstances that their religion require either, yet people never seem to have anything to say about them. I am just saying that if you're really that critical of a religion then at least be critical for the right reasons. Force can be used as easily in any religion. It's the people at fault, not the religion. Because people come with intent, not religion.

Also, regarding your statement about Muslims and anti-gay sentiments, it may be of 'what you have heard' but don't believe everything you hear. Muslims in one parts don't make up entire Muslim population. So, again, please try not to generalize.

Just because someone has different faith and beliefs, we should be mindful as not to be so quick to judge and disapprove. If you are doing that, then there has to be something in your thought process that you might want to re-assess. Deconstruct your arguments and see their validity.

Finally, I am not trying to use "rhetorics," I am trying to be factually right instead of just stating presumptuous things (as i have already mentioned that I am currently studying multicultural/multiethnic prejudice in our society and I deal with stats on a regular basis). It's as simple as that. It's really up to you how you want to take it.

Interesting debate. First I'd say that although its natural to go by one's own personal experience. Several people here have done this, by giving egs of how they or their friend, family etc fit into western "culture" without compromising on their Islamic faith etc and I say kudos to them!

However, I took the original question as a much wider debate. As in why is it that why do MORE ppl who follow Islam, as opposed to other religions, find it harder to "fit in" into "western culture". Some have thrown in somewhat of a red herring by completely separating religion and culture. Both feed into each other and are not 100% separate, but that is off topic.

Personally I think that EVERY first and subsequent generation immigrant from whatever, country and/or religion finds it hard to "fit in". Why are muslims "targeted?" Some have said coz they have restrictions posed by their faith such as diet, clothing (hijab etc), they refuse to do everything of the western culture, which makes them appear different and the ppl of the native culture make them feel uncomfortable and don't allow them to fit in. This although is partially true, I don't think this is the whole picture ( and in no way am I saying that I have the whole picuture!!)

Since the original question is about religion, there are plenty of people of other faiths who have immigrated to the west and who, especially if they have children do their best to ensure that as much of the faith and culture of the country of origin is retained. However, the reason I think more muslims make it into the news is because...just to follow an example given by Eric...

Sikhs or Hindus would not build a temple next to a gym and THEN complain and want the gym next door closed down coz the women coming and going in gym workout wear are "hurting their religious sentiments". IF the DID build a temple next to say a gym...they would put up with it without causing a raucus. (someone pointed out that the muslim men should have lowered their eyes but I am willing to bet the protest was sparked by the need to stop young men and boys from ogling!)

The point I am making its that the VAST majority of muslims don't do this, however there are enough who insist on imposing their viewpoints, practices that it makes the media headlines, gives the rest a bad name and its the majority of muslims who have fitted in just nicely who then get the flack, suspision and "bad press" from those ignorant in the "western culture" who generalise and paint everything and everyone with the same brush.

Most immigrants of a non Christian faith wants to hang on to their faith and practices. Its just that a few muslims go about it in a way that imposes their restrictions onto others.

I remember at school...there was meat served in school dinners...we took a pack lunch. Im a vegetarian. A Sikh kid in school...there was beef on the menu (his family didn't eat beef), he skipped the item containing beef on that day.
A muslim kid, once there were a few in school, the parents got togather and wanted all meat in school dinners to be halal!! This caused a serious problem for those western parents who were more than happy and WERE respecting the muslim dietary restrictions (no kid was forced to eat anything) but were not happy with being asked to go against THEIR values of animals being killed as humanely as possible (IN THEIR VALUE SYSTEM) for meat.

We had a ridiculous situation in a city not from from us, where due to a significant pakistani immigrant community, and several local councillers being of that origin, some public toilets were made into the "traditional" hole in the ground type!!! In order to make immigrants feel comfortable and that they fitted in!! Im not white but if I was, I would not be happy that my taxes were being used to put in public toilets so that me and my granny would have to squat if we needed to use the public toilets!! Now THIS has nothing to do with religion...types of toilets is more to do with the culture of a country and there are lots of Pakistanis, 99% muslims in that city but there are also lots of Hindus and Sikhs. BUT...WHO were the ones who wanted the "home style" toilets? The muslim immigrants. It is things such as this by a FEW who give the rest a bad rep resulting in intolerance and suspision. These few are a lot more amongst muslims than any other religion has and that is why the view gets formed that ppl who follow Islam find it hard to find in/don't want to fit in.

Plenty Hindus and Sikhs have hole in the ground toilets "back home" but MORE of them accept that some things have to change and they have to ADJUST to the new country, NOT that the ppl of the country they have moved to should adjust to them. There are plenty of ppl of ALL non christian religions who are happily going about living their lives keeping to the strictures of their faith without demanding "special treatment". Its just that muslims, I think have have had more of an environment where those who think that muslims are getting a bad deal worldwide and also that non-islamic ways should be changed have had a greater influence on so there is a way of thinking in a minority which makes it hard for the majoriy and gives them bad press.

Plsss, toilets, diets and dress code are mere examples, to make a point. I don't wish to discuss the why and whereofs of them in the context of any religion or culture!