Irrelevance of God?

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@K.Universe.

Voyager

Posted: 12 years ago

#21

Vin2, thanks for keeping the narrative straight, devoid of jarring colors, emoticons and special characters. Made it easy for me to follow your train of thought.

Yes, there are a lot of unresolved questions. The answers, if any, are not easily forthcoming unless one is willing to put in a great number of laborious hours to do the research and even that comes with no guarantees at the end; uncertainty indeed.

Regarding CMB, the spectrum that we see now formed 380,000 years after the big bang so it's assumed that inflation sufficiently cooled the universe by then? A smaller or younger black hole universe usually cools down faster (or so I read).

I guess the holographic hypothesis is "justified" not by proof but by the circumstantial evidence we see all around us including the way our memories are organized in the brain. The whole is in every part.

Regarding creativity, well, in the simulation, the independent variable that changes could be space-time; the dependent variable under observation could be life itself, how it evolves or whether it even evolves at all. The controlled variables could be the physical constants such as Planck length/mass/time, elementary charge, etc that we will tweak to see what evolves and how causal relationships shape up. Our experiences are not fed to the model so no possibility of watching a rerun?

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Vintage.Wine

@Vintage.Wine

Voyager

Posted: 12 years ago

#22

Originally posted by: K.Universe.
Vin2, thanks for keeping the narrative straight, devoid of jarring colors, emoticons and special characters. Made it easy for me to follow your train of thought.

Yes, there are a lot of unresolved questions. The answers, if any, are not easily forthcoming unless one is willing to put in a great number of laborious hours to do the research and even that comes with no guarantees at the end; uncertainty indeed.

Regarding CMB, the spectrum that we see now formed 380,000 years after the big bang so it's assumed that inflation sufficiently cooled the universe by then? A smaller or younger black hole universe usually cools down faster (or so I read).

I guess the holographic hypothesis is "justified" not by proof but by the circumstantial evidence we see all around us including the way our memories are organized in the brain. The whole is in every part.

Regarding creativity, well, in the simulation, the independent variable that changes could be space-time; the dependent variable under observation could be life itself, how it evolves or whether it even evolves at all. The controlled variables could be the physical constants such as Planck length/mass/time, elementary charge, etc that we will tweak to see what evolves and how causal relationships shape up. Our experiences are not fed to the model so no possibility of watching a rerun?

Haha ...Yeah...😆... This is surely one of those once in a blue moon moments where you commended me for something ..Looks like omission ( Emoticons and all ..) has helped it's bit there...It was such a difficult thing to do I tell ya ...But yeah I too should commend ya back for having patience nuff to go through my MOTW ..<< Isn't your mention of Vin2 was nuff proof of that ..?

Getting back to the point ..All I was trying to do there was to invalidate TM's basic contention that the God / The creator can be made to look irrelevant ...With all those entrancing features that this one Universe is loaded with ..The more you discover the more would remain to be discovered ...I guess people have become a bit too sanguine with the idea of AI and it's (im)possible culmination ...That's too much optimism ..too soon ...And here they overlook whats been clearly stated in the scriptures all filled with scientific terms and references ...The state of ' Shunyaksha' <<<< When Space - Time didn't exist ...Now as the mortals we exist in this realm ie: The Universe ( The state after creation ) and are bound by the laws here ..So whatever we might create is outta what raw material the mighty entity has left for us to experiment with in this 'Universal Laboratory' and he has made sure that we can't breach the basic rules that every substance (Even whats imaginary for us ) abides by in the most amazing manner ...

" Nirman moha jitsang dosha ..adhyatmanitya vinivrittakamah ..Dvandvair vimuktaha sukha dukkha saingyair gachhantya MUD(H)AHA <<<<<😆 padamavyayantat ...See that ? ...The duality too is illustrated and termed as illusive ...I must apologize to The God here for amending the verses and adding that extra 'H' there to justify the current state of mind of people with too much scientific optimism ...But it was a fair edition ..Don't ya think ? ..😆

Coming to uncertainty I would say that there is nothing that's actually uncertain at the micro level ...We resort to that cause we are unable to determine the nature / identify the behavioral pattern of the particles beyond a certain level where the situation is complex nuff to be beyond the scope of human inference ...Electrons jumping orbits ..Proton interactions .I suspect there has to be a definite, predetermined set of rules that prevails to ensue the reality that's so fascinatingly stable in nature ..We can start with the most basic stuff like the Rutherford's model etc...There can't be atoms without electrons reaching an octet right ? ..Although the rules differ for the most basic cosmic elements that are the building blocks of the material reality ..Like H and HE ? They got only 2 valence in the outer shell and still go onto form molecules ..But we can't deny that the rules / the criteria exists unless we opine that the creator beguiled there to bemuse us nuff into wasting the precious time that he himself created for us ..😆

@ Blue: That's perfect ..but what lead me to the suspicion that even those temperatures that we can sense / measure could be false / the work of the imagination of us as One entity ..is the holographic principle itself ..If everything is stuck at the outer rim of the black hole and the properties are scattered evenly across the circumference, there can't be a real difference in any of the attributes measured / observed at different locales ...And then those simultaneous observations of both Blue shifts and Red shifts, Dilation and Shrinking of objects it all is bewildering and can't be justified unless we think of illusions ...<< Now this is something that can never be quantified, simulated in a immaculate manner IMO.

@ Red: True that ...Especially the controlled variables part is pretty convincing and can be put in place as we devise the simulation ..What looks difficult to me is how we can formulate the expression that can exact the uncontrolled variables that mostly constitute of the effects of the unknown objects ( Both in Macro / Micro levels ) and their unknown behavior ...And the foremost of all ? The uncertainty which is difficult to judge or formulated ..We can't overlook that right ? ..Can we have a math formula / the expression for the same that ll have the exact same effects on other variables ? If we can then we can exact the Universe's operation and can even fast forward the flick to peek into the future to the point of actual annihilation ...and may be beyond that ? ...My judgement is the Universe is expanding / stretching with our imaginations cause I'm of the belief that they both expand in a commensurate fashion ...The plasma shell that is there that can never be breached or even reached cause it just keeps moving farther as we keep getting closer to that ...Amusing stuff ...😆

Vintu ...😛

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@K.Universe.

Voyager

Posted: 12 years ago

#23

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine
[
Haha ...Yeah...😆... This is surely one of those once in a blue moon moments where you commended me for something ..Looks like omission ( Emoticons and all ..) has helped it's bit there...It was such a difficult thing to do I tell ya ...But yeah I too should commend ya back for having patience nuff to go through my MOTW ..<< Isn't your mention of Vin2 was nuff proof of that ..?

[K] Sorry, I didn't. I went through the last 2-3 pages. I thought I came up with the Vin2 bit myself but if it was already coined, I will rechristen you as Vin.Win. :)

Getting back to the point ..All I was trying to do there was to invalidate TM's basic contention that the God / The creator can be made to look irrelevant ...With all those entrancing features that this one Universe is loaded with ..The more you discover the more would remain to be discovered ...I guess people have become a bit too sanguine with the idea of AI and it's (im)possible culmination ...That's too much optimism ..too soon ...And here they overlook whats been clearly stated in the scriptures all filled with scientific terms and references ...The state of ' Shunyaksha' <<<< When Space - Time didn't exist ...Now as the mortals we exist in this realm ie: The Universe ( The state after creation ) and are bound by the laws here ..So whatever we might create is outta what raw material the mighty entity has left for us to experiment with in this 'Universal Laboratory' and he has made sure that we can't breach the basic rules that every substance (Even whats imaginary for us ) abides by in the most amazing manner ...

[K] I think you misunderstood the topic maker's assertion. To the inhabitants of our simulation, we the simulators will be considered the creators who they would have no idea about, just as whoever you think is responsible for the simulation/creation that we humans reside in, are creators to you. The inhabitants of a simulation can always hazard who the ancestors of their creators are just as some of us try to know who might have created our God. That regress will always be there till time is solved.

" Nirman moha jitsang dosha ..adhyatmanitya vinivrittakamah ..Dvandvair vimuktaha sukha dukkha saingyair gachhantya MUD(H)AHA <<<<<😆 padamavyayantat ...See that ? ...The duality too is illustrated and termed as illusive ...I must apologize to The God here for amending the verses and adding that extra 'H' there to justify the current state of mind of people with too much scientific optimism ...But it was a fair edition ..Don't ya think ? ..😆

[K] Well, if you want to go by Hindu mythology, even there the Trimurthi, the triumvirate, Brahma, Vishnu and Maheshwar were not the creators of the universe. They were appointed to their exalted positions by Adi Shakti, the primordial energy. So you see, even the Gods didn't get their energy for free.

Coming to uncertainty I would say that there is nothing that's actually uncertain at the micro level ...We resort to that cause we are unable to determine the nature / identify the behavioral pattern of the particles beyond a certain level where the situation is complex nuff to be beyond the scope of human inference ...Electrons jumping orbits ..Proton interactions .I suspect there has to be a definite, predetermined set of rules that prevails to ensue the reality that's so fascinatingly stable in nature ..We can start with the most basic stuff like the Rutherford's model etc...There can't be atoms without electrons reaching an octet right ? ..Although the rules differ for the most basic cosmic elements that are the building blocks of the material reality ..Like H and HE ? They got only 2 valence in the outer shell and still go onto form molecules ..But we can't deny that the rules / the criteria exists unless we opine that the creator beguiled there to bemuse us nuff into wasting the precious time that he himself created for us ..😆

[K] I don't want to get cute here but the interpretation of uncertainty is itself indeterminate from what I read. We don't know if the restrictions are on the experiments we can perform on quantum systems or restrictions on the meaning of the concepts we use to describe quantum systems. I think the Copenhagen interpretation is standard but it is still an interpretation and not the underlying truth.

@ Blue: That's perfect ..but what lead me to the suspicion that even those temperatures that we can sense / measure could be false / the work of the imagination of us as One entity ..is the holographic principle itself ..If everything is stuck at the outer rim of the black hole and the properties are scattered evenly across the circumference, there can't be a real difference in any of the attributes measured / observed at different locales ...And then those simultaneous observations of both Blue shifts and Red shifts, Dilation and Shrinking of objects it all is bewildering and can't be justified unless we think of illusions ...<< Now this is something that can never be quantified, simulated in a immaculate manner IMO.

@ Red: True that ...Especially the controlled variables part is pretty convincing and can be put in place as we devise the simulation ..What looks difficult to me is how we can formulate the expression that can exact the uncontrolled variables that mostly constitute of the effects of the unknown objects ( Both in Macro / Micro levels ) and their unknown behavior ...And the foremost of all ? The uncertainty which is difficult to judge or formulated ..We can't overlook that right ? ..Can we have a math formula / the expression for the same that ll have the exact same effects on other variables ? If we can then we can exact the Universe's operation and can even fast forward the flick to peek into the future to the point of actual annihilation ...and may be beyond that ? ...My judgement is the Universe is expanding / stretching with our imaginations cause I'm of the belief that they both expand in a commensurate fashion ...The plasma shell that is there that can never be breached or even reached cause it just keeps moving farther as we keep getting closer to that ...Amusing stuff ...😆

[K] Will get back to all this. Lots of great questions and engrossing discussion points here.

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Vintage.Wine

@Vintage.Wine

Voyager

Posted: 12 years ago

#24

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

[K] Sorry, I didn't. I went through the last 2-3 pages. I thought I came up with the Vin2 bit myself but if it was already coined, I will rechristen you as Vin.Win. :)

Aww ..Thanks mate if that stuff wasn't paradoxical that is ..😆

[K] I think you misunderstood the topic maker's assertion. To the inhabitants of our simulation, we the simulators will be considered the creators who they would have no idea about, just as whoever you think is responsible for the simulation/creation that we humans reside in, are creators to you. The inhabitants of a simulation can always hazard who the ancestors of their creators are just as some of us try to know who might have created our God. That regress will always be there till time is solved.

That leaves you out of the Universe you created which contradicts the Atman / Brahman or Universal soul concept which doesn't pave way for a clear / acceptable resolution of the conundrum theus creating more ambiguity ...Also the future of the Universe created / simulated in such a manner would be dependent on many a things ..Like the known energies, namely electricity ( That exist in the current realm ) which wasn't the case when our Universe was created as those energies weren't coeval with supersymmetry...due to the lack of particles needed to produce that ..Also this typr of Universe would be time bound ..Time which was created only when the primal forces fostered the first movements ..And since this Universe would be confined to the mundane matrix it ll be annihilated with the destruction of the earth..something that we know would happen when the SUN's outer layer dilates before it collapses into a white dwarf ...So IMO this Universe can't be as majestic as the original masterpiece ...It ll be like just another flick or a video game to say the least ...Also from what we can observe, the creator ( If we choose to believe that all material reality is indeed real and we ain't the creators of such illusions ourselves..) doesn't cozen and intervene in the process to stop the destruction or newer creation ..But we as the creators of this simulated Universe might choose to do so ..Or have a privilege to do so at our discretion which makes it possible to administer the entire process or even manipulate it depending on our desires / whims ...Doesn't that sound more like a movie than reality ? ..😆

[K] Well, if you want to go by Hindu mythology, even there the Trimurthi, the triumvirate, Brahma, Vishnu and Maheshwar were not the creators of the universe. They were appointed to their exalted positions by Adi Shakti, the primordial energy. So you see, even the Gods didn't get their energy for free.

Um ...Mythology for me is just the gimmick to lure people into religious beliefs, following rituals and lead a sinless life etc.. ..I consider that part of the scriptures ( From all religions ) that can somehow relate with the current known physics ...I was only trying to fetch your attention to the verse where they have mentioned the Duality ...And no one during that era coulda even thought of duality ( As in wave particle ) unless they were transcendental beings who knew every minute detail about the entire system ...But yeah what you said there is right ..the Brahman is the prime energy that occupies everything, all particles ..it's there in it's most miniscule form ..and all that those incarnations were saying was that we need to be aware of our existence as that mighty form ..Dissociate ourselves from our separate material identities to finally reconcile with the truth that's ultimate and beyond the understanding of human intelligence may be ..?

[K] I don't want to get cute here but the interpretation of uncertainty is itself indeterminate from what I read. We don't know if the restrictions are on the experiments we can perform on quantum systems or restrictions on the meaning of the concepts we use to describe quantum systems. I think the Copenhagen interpretation is standard but it is still an interpretation and not the underlying truth.

Hahaha ..Thats alright ...😆 ..You gotta say what you gotta say ..even if that sounds contradictory right ? ..but that wasn't the case here cause I think you and I were making pretty much the same point but may be in different ways ? ...I don't think there is anything that's actually uncertain at such a micro levels ..It's just so abstruse that we have no choice but to resort to uncertainty, constants etc to somehow reach a shonky solution to the problem come hell or high water ...😆

But of course you would ...and I hope we ll reach somewhere before the end of time ...( Our time on IF of course...😆 ) cause for us failure is not an option ...Or is it ? ...😛

Vintu ...😛

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@K.Universe.

Voyager

Posted: 12 years ago

#25

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

That leaves you out of the Universe you created which contradicts the Atman / Brahman or Universal soul concept which doesn't pave way for a clear / acceptable resolution of the conundrum theus creating more ambiguity ...Also the future of the Universe created / simulated in such a manner would be dependent on many a things ..Like the known energies, namely electricity ( That exist in the current realm ) which wasn't the case when our Universe was created as those energies weren't coeval with supersymmetry...due to the lack of particles needed to produce that ..Also this typr of Universe would be time bound ..Time which was created only when the primal forces fostered the first movements ..And since this Universe would be confined to the mundane matrix it ll be annihilated with the destruction of the earth..something that we know would happen when the SUN's outer layer dilates before it collapses into a white dwarf ...So IMO this Universe can't be as majestic as the original masterpiece ...It ll be like just another flick or a video game to say the least ...Also from what we can observe, the creator ( If we choose to believe that all material reality is indeed real and we ain't the creators of such illusions ourselves..) doesn't cozen and intervene in the process to stop the destruction or newer creation ..But we as the creators of this simulated Universe might choose to do so ..Or have a privilege to do so at our discretion which makes it possible to administer the entire process or even manipulate it depending on our desires / whims ...Doesn't that sound more like a movie than reality ? ..

All valid objections.

I think our simulation needs to "detach" itself from our environment. The best place for it to "dwell" that I can of think is inside of a black hole.

Theoretically, black holes could form inside of particle accelerators like LHC, when quarks collide. They are extremely unstable and presumably decay in trillionth of a trillionth of a second but if we could keep it stable and then smear it with our encoded information encapsulating a miniature universe, like how we think the holographic principle works, we could be in business.

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Believe

@-Believe-

Stunner

+ 2

Posted: 12 years ago

#26

The Two:-

😆

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Vintage.Wine

@Vintage.Wine

Voyager

Posted: 12 years ago

#27

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

All valid objections.

I think our simulation needs to "detach" itself from our environment. The best place for it to "dwell" that I can of think is inside of a black hole.

Theoretically, black holes could form inside of particle accelerators like LHC, when quarks collide. They are extremely unstable and presumably decay in trillionth of a trillionth of a second but if we could keep it stable and then smear it with our encoded information encapsulating a miniature universe, like how we think the holographic principle works, we could be in business.

Right ..and those limitations just ascertain my doubt that the whole digital simulation exercise is worthless ...I think we need to make a few changes to the whole idea ..like drop the word Simulation ? <<< We can't simulate the entirety unless we know of every bit of it and it's properties..sounds like a uphill task ..almost impossible if you think ..So why not just be creators ? .. ...We don't have to counterfeit what's there already Do we ? ...

Creating a black whole using a hardon collider is a scary thought ...Don't ya think ? ..I mean there is every chance that it ll suck up everything including us ..the pretend creators ..😆 ..also such black whole would still lie within the boundaries of this one known Universe and hence it too ll be annihilated after a prolonged time ..So that idea just doesn't appeal to me ...

We just can't match the creator and his mystical masterpiece K ..Whatever billion years that the humanity would survive for, might not be nuff to achieve such a feat ..Let's reconcile with it ...

BUT

I guess there is a bleak ray of hope somewhere ..that might lead us to our goal ..Goal that's nothing short of a miracle ( Scientific ) ...but we need to first understand what we are trying to do here ...And here is my wacky idea about it ...Now look it's pretty crude to say the least and might sound absurd on many counts ..But there is nothing wrong even in hoping against the hope sometimes ..So I ll tell ya what it is ..

HERE

Look ..How about we create a field Universe ..that doesn't exact the humungous one that we are confined to ? ..Just create things, beings that can live forever ..Even past the stelliferous era ...as the Universe meets it's fate ...Crunch, Rip whatever ...

I guess all we need to do here is contemplate a REAL ( not simulated )model that ll be small and restricted to a field and then somehow place that field outta the boundaries of this Universe ...What worries me is the Universe's expanding / stretching plasma shell ..makes me wonder if it's indeed inside a black hole ...If it is then I'm afraid but we might have to forget about getting past it's schwarzschild radius ...😆 ..So here we must hope to get lucky ..

Alright ...So the question is how do we help the mini universe that we create reach past that plasma shell so that it won't be bound by the laws here or can get annihilated ...But how do we do that ? The Space / Time curvature might help ? ..It's not possible to reach the outer limit we know cause of the limits on the speed @ C...But time ? I guess breaching any one dimension should help us get that far ..right ? ..And it might be possible to breach the time dimension ..? So how about creating something that ll have a near zero entropy ? ..And let the stuff float in the open space at a maximum distance from all galactic clusters / black holes etc ? ...If the Time dimension is curved it can mean that we are both moving ahead in time and may be backwards too ? Towards the initial super symmetry state again ? ..So if the curve is hyperbolic, make the system move in a straight path towards it's center ...Now none of us would actually live to see the system breach the time dimension cause it should happen with the annihilation of the Universe ...

The question now is how to make our system / mini Universe last forever / Until the time it gets past the Time dimension ? ..I guess we must shelve off the plans of having humans in their current form as it's inhabitants and instead choose the Photons ...I mean look..human civilization still has like 1 billion years or so to live ..So during this period we might be able to create a system to say Energize everything ? ..Including the humans ? ..And get em back to their original state with a pre existing program that ll trigger such sequence after a period much longer than what it ll take for the Universe to annihilate..

OR to make it look wackier / More miraculous but may be achievable ..

We can engender a principally slowly expanding system to maintain the homogeneity of such creation ..choosing the particles at the post Inflation ( As in inflationary cosmology ) era like the ^ CDM model where gravity is dissociated ...( I hope its possible to survive in a gravity less state ) ..in a matrix that ll accelerate at a incremental rate ..But slowly ... Now we can choose the particles that don't decay ..ie : The Photons of course and let em float in a opaque state as a cumulative soup of protons and neutrons etc ? ...So that the fusion takes place which can later culminate into recombination of some sort ..The raw material for this experiment I guess is available readily in the current Universe ...Like in CMB or Hydrogen spin line radiation if if can find that ... ..Okay this is just a brief idea ..We ll choose to either ponder over it or rebuff with a consensus I guess ... 😛

And if everything above fails we can choose to build the greatest Hardon collider ever ..Create a black hole that ll suck up everything ..including US the creators ...Yehaha...😆 ..the death should get us there ...( Separate from the material (Un)reality I mean ..to reach past all boundaries ..) What say ? ...😆

Vintu ...😛

Edited by Vintage.Wine - 12 years ago

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@K.Universe.

Voyager

Posted: 12 years ago

#28

^^

Sounds like a plan, man! When do we begin work?I will get the scotch and club soda, you get the ice 😆

This is getting zanier by the minute, let me tell you that.

The only way to go "outside" is by building a Einstein-Rosen bridge (a.k.a. wormhole) and stabilizing it for passage through space-time. For this purpose, I don't think we can employ naturally occuring black holes, they may lead to "different albeit existing universes" so the bridge has to be home-grown in order for us to "plant" our simulated/created universe at the "other end" of the bridge.

OK, at this point, I won't even pretend that I made any sense. But, I guess, the more outlandish the idea, the better it's chances are to work for this type of a problem. Extraordinary problems require extraordinary solutions. So what if we sound like two crackpots?! 😆

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Ajnabee

@*Woh Ajnabee*

Stunner

Posted: 12 years ago

#29

Originally posted by: K.Universe.
^^

Sounds like a plan, man! When do we begin work?I will get the scotch and club soda, you get the ice 😆

This is getting zanier by the minute, let me tell you that.

The only way to go "outside" is by building a Einstein-Rosen bridge (a.k.a. wormhole) and stabilizing it for passage through space-time. For this purpose, I don't think we can employ naturally occuring black holes, they may lead to "different albeit existing universes" so the bridge has to be home-grown in order for us to "plant" our simulated/created universe at the "other end" of the bridge.

OK, at this point, I won't even pretend that I made any sense. But, I guess, the more outlandish the idea, the better it's chances are to work for this type of a problem. Extraordinary problems require extraordinary solutions. So what if we sound like two crackpots?! 😆

@Bold: As long as you are still conscious of that, all is still well! 😆

I was trying to keep up with the thread, but you guys lost me somewhere at black hole, the holographic principle and something called the universe (really, what is that?!). And if I'm not conscious of it, does it really not exist?

If a manmade computer can really be used to recreate consciousness in order to create a more perfect universe that exists without pain and suffering - how would we know it is a utopia when we don't have anything to compare it to? And if someone IS able to create a program that recreates the universe, life and consciousness on a different scale, would he or she be called God? If so, how is God irrelevant? Wouldn't God and his or her identification become even more relevant at that point?

Sorry for the amateur questions. Free for anyone to answer. Don't feel obliged, Mister K.