Torturing of suspects and criminals

Summer3 thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#1
United Nations has set guidelines on torture. But still it cannot be stopped in real life. Perhaps they can only do away with some like waterboarding etc done during the Bush Adminstration.

Torture is prohibited under international law and the domestic laws of most countries in the 21st century. It is considered to be a violation of human rights, and is declared to be unacceptable by Article 5 of the UNUniversal Declaration of Human Rights. Signatories of the Third Geneva Convention and Fourth Geneva Convention officially agree not to torture prisoners in armed conflicts. Torture is also prohibited by the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which has been ratified by 147 states.[2]

Organizations like Amnesty International argue that the universal legal prohibition is based on a universal philosophical consensus that torture and ill-treatment are repugnant, abhorrent, and immoral.[74] But since shortly after the September 11, 2001 attacks there has been a debate in the United States about whether torture is justified in some circumstances. Some people, such as Alan M. Dershowitz and Mirko Bagaric, have argued the need for information outweighs the moral and ethical arguments against torture.[
Here is a cute one:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se34fciDwrs&sns=em[/YOUTUBE]

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blue-ice. thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#2
very nice topic Summerji...I really don't know where I stand on this one although I tilt on the side of treating the prisoners as humanely as possible...but on the other hand the whereabouts of Osama were found because of what some prisoners revealed after using some techniques like waterboarding etc...


return_to_hades thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#3

Originally posted by: blue-ice

very nice topic Summerji...I really don't know where I stand on this one although I tilt on the side of treating the prisoners as humanely as possible...but on the other hand the whereabouts of Osama were found because of what some prisoners revealed after using some techniques like waterboarding etc...




That is incorrect information. A false argument used by people who want US to continue torture.

Have you seen Leon Pannetta's interviews, read his briefs, his letter to John McCain? He clearly lays out how the information was obtained through high level intelligence procedures and NOT inhuman treatment of prisoners.
Summer3 thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#4

Originally posted by: blue-ice

very nice topic Summerji...I really don't know where I stand on this one although I tilt on the side of treating the prisoners as humanely as possible...but on the other hand the whereabouts of Osama were found because of what some prisoners revealed after using some techniques like waterboarding etc...


Yes unless kidnappers and terrorists are dealth with in some ways the answers are hard to come by.
We know that it is not a perfect world that we live in and so there has to be some measures taken. But sometimes there are sadistic torturers too.
At time even for minor offences and mistakes the Law gets high handed against their own citizens, which is totally wrong. But in USA owning a gun is like owning a cigarette lighter; so greater danger prevails. Guns will never be banned either as it is part of the US culture; maybe the Gun companies for funding the politicians.
Summer3 thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#5

Originally posted by: return_to_hades



That is incorrect information. A false argument used by people who want US to continue torture.

Have you seen Leon Pannetta's interviews, read his briefs, his letter to John McCain? He clearly lays out how the information was obtained through high level intelligence procedures and NOT inhuman treatment of prisoners.

Yes I did read about the courier being traced. They did a wonderful job.
For fear of leaks they did not inform Pakistan Intelligence.
-Believe- thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#6
Its depend on crime! ...torturing suspect is part of enquire techniques!
&
I think,Guatanamo Bay should be declared as UN Heritage site!
Summer3 thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#7
Watch this American atrocity.
Basically most soldiers in uniforms are all worse than animals.
Never liked the army.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThyCwhjRXhg&playnext=1&list=PL48E6F507855058F8[/YOUTUBE]
Summer3 thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#8

Originally posted by: Believe

Its depend on crime! ...torturing suspect is part of enquire techniques!
&
I think,Guatanamo Bay should be declared as UN Heritage site!

Interesting reading about the detainees , some over 80 yrs and some 16 years who put up a fight.
Guantanamo files. Many arrested in the Mosque.
some had been arrested by Pakistani police and later the US found them innocent 😲
Edited by Summer3 - 14 years ago
..kiran.. thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#9
I personally think it's completely unacceptable. What's the difference between lawbreakers and lawmakers then?
I understand the utilitarian argument, that places the good of the most number of people over the bad done to one person.
But I disagree, because nothing can justify torture. No matter who does it and for what reasons. What's wrong is wrong. People have dignity, even the worst of terrorists are people with real emotions, just like you and I. Some would not even be evil, just supremely misguided. And nobody is completely bad, just like nobody is all good.
The worst part with these torture tactics is, there doesn't really seem to be any set procedure, or limits. Or if there are, I hardly think there is an effective checking mechanism.
I think the second video Summer3 posted is the one I think it is (I didn't want to watch because I found it disturbing enough the few times I did). Clearly, so many would abuse their powers and think it justified. This is just one incident that was leaked. I don't think it's far-fetched to hypothesise that there are many many more incidents out there. The whole secretive nature of this thing conveniently allows soldiers and whoever it is to just do whatever they like. Probably even as we speak, as you're reading this.
And the fact that many of these tortured suspects (some of them overly brutally tortured) are innocent! Everybody is so terrorised by the idea of terror that they'd just report any suspicious anything. And there you have it, a life ruined, a person's dignity stripped.
Some would say, 1 innocent down, but hey we got 10 real terrorists. I think everytime an innocent is condemned, or worse, killed by torture, before he could have been proven guilty, there's a huge unjustifiable failing of the law system. It's like a bit of humanity dies with that one innocent person. (I got that line from somewhere, but I'm not sure where. It just stuck because it makes so much sense to me)
Okay, maybe I am too idealistic. Maybe I should be practical. Maybe I should say, the 10 real terrorists are a good catch. The whole "humanity dies", "dignity, etc" thing - it's just words, just rhetoric. We have to make the world a better place, and a few sacrifices here and there are unfortunate but necessary.
But even practically, my feeling is that everytime 1 innocent goes down, 10 other innocents become terrorists. The whole system and the unfairness and brutality of it creates such fury among people that the best of them resort to violence because it seems to be all the world has come down to.
The terrorists didn't spring up from nowhere. Yes, they are wrong, insane, cruel, and all of that. I don't want to defend what they do, because there is nothing that can just justify such acts. I will never endorse such a thing. All the lives lost, families ruined, all because of some sick agenda. Really horrible.
But they are after all normal people. It is circumstances that have shaped them. The US has been interfering in the Middle East for the past century (and is continuing to do so, largely for political and oil-related reasons). That's where the Taliban terrorists came from. I hardly think it was a random, "hey let's jihad, guys!" thought that popped out of nowhere. It was resentment that had been boiling for so long due to various injustices that they had been subjected to that has turned into an anger so wild they have become almost animal-like, devoid of emotions and rationality.
That's done. It's quite certain that nothing can be done to make them realise how wrong this whole thing is. Rehabilitation sounds absolutely ridiculous in the light of what they have done and how far they have gone. They completely deserve to be punished, to be brought to justice. And I am all for that.
But I really feel the current system is perpetrating the vicious terrorism cycle, creating more terrorists everyday, by causing more resentment and anger in people. And practically, that doesn't work.
On the level of principles, even less so. The very essence of justice is being perverted, supposedly in the interests of justice. I think violence is the last thing we need in the world today.
Edited by ..kiran.. - 14 years ago
souro thumbnail
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Posted: 14 years ago
#10
^^ Wow
I don't agree at all with you though. But good post.

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