How can God create anything Evil? - Page 18

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

Since I have the reputation for arguing, I contend that human females also do not give birth. They just hold the fetus in their cubby hole until maturity. Then the infant pushes its way out of the inhospitable depths.

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

Okay, let me reiterate one thing here - I don't denounce free-will totally. I feel we all have some measure of free will but I like to call it "choices" based on the reasons I mentioned before.

If an initiative is untouched by all the building blocks leading one to take that initiative then yes - I would call it free will but it's really hard to come across such initiatives.

Here's an example that should demonstrate why I am not a firm believer of absolute free will:

"Gerard Croiset was a remarkable Dutch psychic. He devised an experiment known as the "chair test," in which he would try to describe in advance the person who would sit in a randomly chosen chair at an upcoming public event, without knowing either the nature of the event or its location. In one experiment Croiset said that the person who would sit in the chair selected would be a man five foot nine inches tall, who brushed his black hair straight back, had a gold tooth in his lower jaw, a scar on his big toe, who worked in both science and industry, and sometimes got his lab coat stained by a greenish chemical. Two weeks later the meeting took place (in Denver, Colorado), and the person who sat down in the chair concerned was a man who fitted Croiset's description in every respect except one -- instead of being five foot nine, he was five foot nine and three-quarters. (1) Croiset performed the chair test over a period of 25 years with notable success. Such an experiment raises the question of just how free we really are."

https://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/karma/ka-prat.htm

If you get some time then try to scan through the article at the above link. It makes for a nice read if you are interested in such topics. For me, like I said before, free will, order in chaos, consciousness etc. are really hard to grasp. The more I read on them, the more confused I become. Hence, I have decided to simplify them in my mind and go by the basics. I may lose out on a lot of relevant material when I break these topics down to the very basics I am comfortable with or that make some sense to me and that's why I am confusing y'all with my views here.

Normally, I would have balked at using something like psychometry as a form of proof. However, this topic itself is on a more philosophical/supernatural level. Besides, I am a fan of the X-files kind of stuff. Nevertheless, I do not think psychometry, foreshadowing and other forms of fortune telling can actually refute the existence of free will.

A normal person will make an educated guess to predict based on what they know. For example in the show Psych, Shawn Spencer pretends to be a psychic based on his sharp observation and deduction skills. Someone gifted supernaturally has the ability to receive information above and beyond a normal person. So when a psychic predicts a person will sit at a particular chair, he is not erasing the free will a person possesses. But he is using the cosmic information to foreshadow what the person will end up doing based on his free will.

Even in myths and theories about predicting the future, it is always said that the person predicting the future is actually intellectually guessing the cosmic outcome with the highest probability. Initially, I had expressed Karma as an elaborate system of probabilities. Say there is a 99.9% of one karmic probability and a 0.1% of another. A supernatural psychic would predict the 99.9% probability. However, that 0.1% chance of it being something else is the power of free will. Free will has the capacity to erase that 99.9% and carve its own outcome. Its like in the movie 'Minority Report'. You cannot convict a person as a criminal based on a premonition, because there is always that small chance that they will not do the crime. Now for a more loopy and heady mix of destiny, free will, time travek and the predestination paradox - watch Donnie Darko. It is by far one of the most philosophical and intelligent science fiction movies, I have ever seen.

Personally, I think destiny is a romanticized concept. Not that I do not beleive in destiny. However, I think we have the power to choose our destiny. In my opinion too much faith in destiny makes us complacent. We are convinced that good or bad fortune is the fruit of past karma and accept things the way they are. The meaning of life is to grab it by the horns and keep forging ahead, to think of what we can and should do and not what we may perhaps have done.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Since I have the reputation for arguing, I contend that human females also do not give birth. They just hold the fetus in their cubby hole until maturity. Then the infant pushes its way out of the inhospitable depths.

😆

Next qn would be how much effort do those sea horses put in getting the baby out of the pouch?

Cos in humans case its a collective effort , i think. The woman and the baby both make an effort to get the baby out.😆

So God is either a female or a sea horse LOL

Originally posted by: angie.4u

So God is either a female

a female with the worst kind of Private MessageS(PMS)😆

Originally posted by: clodpolish

a female with the worst kind of Private MessageS(PMS)😆

Oh Cloddy! You crack me up so. 🤣

^ ^

I am very busy too, so don't know if I will get the time to reply you and other back here properly. I will hold onto whatever I can for now; will reply to the rest when I get back.

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

If I am not mistaken, you are saying choosing one alternative amongst many is expressing free will. I don't agree with this. For me, that is just one chaice a person made.

You mean choice...? If so, then, isn't choosing one alternative over many others through using ones logic, rationale, reasoning, etc a product of exercising our own free will, reason being we are *choosing* what to do without being *forced* by any outer force?

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

It could be random, judgmental or purely coincidental.

Irrespective of the 'choice' being random, coincidental or judgmental, as long as the choice had been made by the chooser alone, without the help/influence/force from any outer source, it is free will.

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

For me, free will is the action a person takes without any influence from any external and/or factors and/or without any inhibitors on the possibilities related to the set of choices available to him..

Hey, that's my definition, too! 😆

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

Another reason I refute that free will exist in humans is my belief in the omnipresent superpower I call God. I do not see God as an interfering power but I do believe that she did set the path for a huge part of our life at the time we are born.

If God is not noninterference in human action[s], then it is more than clear that whatever we do is the not determined by some outer force, but dependent on our own thoughts, willingness, conscience, and the ability to do that.

However, if God had set the path and destiny of every human being in the moment of Creation (or conception), then it will be somewhat incorrect to say that we have full control of our free will (if we have it, to begin with). Determinism also plays a part. Personally I think both free will and determinism can co-exist harmoniously. While God (or the Inexplicable Force) had set some natural Laws for the universe, and had set each living souls' destiny, I believe we also have a control on it, too. Now which force is stronger, our own ability to control the Natural world and our destinies, or the forces set up from the beginning is the question at hand.

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

That path depends hugely on past Kramas and is modified throughout by my present Karma. Additonally, I also believe in destiny.

You need to explain what you mean by 'Karma'; I am not much knowledgeable on this field. Additionally, you need to explain how is it having a [drastic] effect on our present life.

The Karma concept is way too much difficult for my fragile brain to understand. So if any one here, with a vast knowledge on these issue, could explain that to me? As far as I understand, Karma is our deeds, right? Or is it the consequence of our deeds? If it is the so, then when does the person face his Karma or consequence of what he had committed? Does he face and pay the price (or get rewarded, based on the virtuousness of the action) in that very lifetime (which, IMO, seldom happens but makes way more sense than paying it on another realm) or in another incarnation? Exactly what is reincarnation? For how many times and for how long does a person incarnate? Is there any finite numbers, or does it keep on happening, unless and until the person expiate all his immoral deeds and become a soul ridden of any sort of negativity? What happens then? Does he go and reside in heaven, or does he get merged with the universal Force?

Destiny is another extremely complicated subject. I don't understand it much myself.

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

Combine all these together and I see a course of life that is pre-set with some pre-set forks/bifurcations on the way. Now, it is upto me to choose which fork I take and which I let go. That decision will be based on my collective experiences so far, the need of the hour and my moral/ethical values. At times, that decision may also depend on the temptations that get thrown at me. But, at any given point in time, I have no control over which forks will be presented to me.

Since those choices that are presented to me along the way are out of my control, how can one say I exerted my feel when all I could do is choose amongst that pre-set forks in the road I have been set on to take the journey of my life?

As I stated before, I think our actions is dependent on both the destiny God had imposed upon us (determinism) and on our own choice (free will). What type of place we are born, what type of family we get, what type of environment/atmosphere we are raised upon, what type of moral teachings we are imposed upon, etc are not dependent on our will - it is something that had been pre-set by Nature/God. However, the actions we commit through out our life, without the help of any sort of outwards force is the product of using our free will. Granted that both are inter-related. Whatever action[s] we commit through out our life, (even if the action is based solely on my own will), must have some sort of influence[s] coming from the sort of life we lived, the sort of environment we were raised up in, the sort of morals we were taught, etc...in other words, our actions, even if they are based on my own will, must be influenced by some outer force, which is determined by Nature/God. Hence our life is a mixture of both Nature had imposed upon us (determinism) and what we do in our life through our own desire and will (free will). Both are inter-connected.


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I know whatever I said just now is jumbled up and all. Please make sense of it, if you can. Will try to give a better reply when I get back. 😃

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

This birth-death-birth cycle is nothing but transformation of energy from one form to another. Soul is nothing but a mere fraction of the super power that created this universe. This is why every religion preaches that we have god within ourselves.

...You mean that we are all part of the Inexplicable Force that shaped out the universe? If so, then I, too, concur with that theory. I am not quite sure, but as far as I can remember, the Abrahamic Religions (something I adhere to) speaks of God 'breathing' a soul into our lifeless bodies, which then became living entities. So following that logic, there is but only one absolute being - whom we call God - who is alive, and we are nothing but part of His existence. I am speaking of this in the spiritual sense and not in the materialistic one, i.e. our physical body might not be a part of Him, but our soul[s] is.

Originally posted by: clodpolish

Well, that means god resides only in all of us and is not there at all ? I mean in each of us he is present right? And combining all fractions we'll get the whole god on earth only no?😆

I adhere to the Panetheistic view of God, which states that God - while being/existing/interpenetrating in each and every aspect of the Natural world or Nature - continues to exist beyond just that. This is distinguishable from pantheism (notice the difference: one less of a 'E' in the middle), which literally means "God is all", while Panetheism means "God is in all". While panetheism asserts that the universe is the part of the God, God continues to exist separately, and is greater than the cosmos in all respect. Personally, to me Ashoka, Panetheism holds much more water than pantheism does.

Originally posted by: PhoeniXof_Hades

I adhere to the Panetheistic view of God, which states that God - while being/existing/interpenetrating in each and every aspect of the Natural world or Nature - continues to exist beyond just that. This is distinguishable from pantheism (notice the difference: one less of a 'E' in the middle), which literally means "God is all", while Panetheism means "God is in all". While panetheism asserts that the universe is the part of the God, God continues to exist separately, and is greater than the cosmos in all respect. Personally, to me Ashoka, Panetheism holds much more water than pantheism does.

that means in pantheism -> God is universe?

and in panetheism -> God is more than universe?

And in that case,the qn i was posing was actually more significant than i thought !

Btw - i won't blame gauri ji if she gets a bit mad at you😆