Who is CGM??? Warrior or Slaughter? - Page 2

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deejagi thumbnail
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Posted: 8 years ago
#11

Originally posted by: colossial.mega




I think you have never read about history of warfare and war tactics in India. A king like CGM would not wasted his time over Nandini. In old days she would probably end up in royal harem. Emotions and morality are not valued during war. Chankya's Arthashatra uses all tactics to win a war.

In the oldest days the winning king always killed the losing party. Generally the men were killed before the women of the family. This used to warn the women of the future consequences. This is the reason the imperial women used to commit suicide after defeat.

I think CGM gave decent death to the princes. The other kings would have ripped of their body parts one by one and slowly tortured them to death. In this serial remember that CGM mother was badly tortured by Nand so that anger and hate is present in CGM for revenge.

So what CGM did was perfectly fine. Nandini should remember that they lost war. So the ball is in CGM's court.






Dear if you want to know, I am a history student and have studied Indian history with eagerness (Not just Mauryan but also South Indian Dynasties). Here I am discussing about the way they are showcasing Chandra Gupta Maurya is not right. I am not denying the fact that he was angry with Nanda's for the crime conducted towards Piplivan king but he was a king of great Value and here they are showing him as a man with no values. I have no qualm with Chanakya's portray as of now.
deejagi thumbnail
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Posted: 8 years ago
#12

Originally posted by: history_geek




<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">Jaya,

It
is always a pleasure to read your posts. I have greatly benefited from
them in the past. I have divided your comment in 3 parts.

For the first part.

I
concur, as far as the treatment of Nanda princes is concerned, as i
said in my first comment above, last night. For all / any fault of
theirs, they were a powerful force to reckon with. The war was a highly
pitched one and hotly contested, from whatever sources we know. Hence
such a cowardly conduct was not right in my opinion. Wars in ancient
times were far more destructive than what happened in medieval ages.


For the second part.

I
have a counter thought to offer. Since they had already shown the
Nandas frightened and timid towards the end of war, hence first option
of challenging for a duel is ruled out. Moreover, the Nanda Emperor was
already given a challenge of duel in the battle field from where he ran
away.

Second clause is - CGM should have asked some other soldiers to execute the Nanda ruler. This, i think, is not possible.

There are 2 reasons which i can offer -
1. Psychological reasons and
2.
Mahabharata (seen as a war manual by military historians) praises the
warrior who eliminates his rival, and compares him with the prowess of
Sri Vishnu. Lets see.

Psychologically, the new king should
eliminate the old king. This creates a great impact on the soldiers and
the population in general. They get to know that the new master is no
less in any aspect, than the old, who was governing them. Do you
remember the first episode of Jodha Akbar ? Bairam Khan asks Akbar to
kill Hemu after winning the Panipat war to get the title of "Ghazi" ;
apart from the supposed religious aspect , the reason was - He wanted
Akbar to show his might to his soldiers and make an impression that
whoever comes in my way would be put off as ruthlessly as possible. This
was the psychological aspect of the war. Central Asian tribes were very
dreaded ; precisely for the brutal manner in which they conducted
warfare.

Coming to second point.
In the Santi Parva in
Mahabharata, Pitamaha Bhishma in a conversation with Yudhishthira,
narrates a story and quotes the God of Gods Indra saying : "That
powerful warrior who, having slain the commander of the hostile army,
mounts the vehicle of his fallen antagonist, comes to be regarded as
possessed of the prowess of Vishnu himself and the intelligence of
Brihaspati, the preceptor of the celestials. "

Military
historians have taken great note of this point. There was a strong
meaning and importance attached to the person who eliminated the rival
commander / king.


For the third part

It is
about females fighting in war. I too have no problem with the Nanda
princess entering the war and even fighting in the war. Only the manner
of her entry was terrible. And as listed above, this was a fault of CVs.
They seem confused what to show.

If they had brought her in the
war field, then there was no need of showing CGM's meddling with her
garment. A proper duel was needed.

Just for note, females took
part in wars in ancient India. I have made a thread about women in
ancient times and also included some notes in it about women and
military.

Alexander while marching into India had to fight with a
principality in the North West which had female contingents in it ; the
king died and the queen and her daughter commanded the army. It was a
long siege like the Chittor battle of Akbar. Alexander emerged
victorious with great difficulty and eliminated everyone there - male
OR female.

I have made a note on my latest thread about this war. {Link} BTW, i have already made a note about interesting views of Chanakya on war , which i said in the first comment above. {Link}</font>



Abhay, as I said, I have no problem with Chankya's portrayal as I know him as crude & cold strategist who even tried to eradicate the grass root, just because it abstracted his fast march (he stumbled upon as the grass got between his toe which disrupted his flow of thoughts. (though I didn't like the way he stood on the enemy fort (who will give way for him to get on to their fort) with clear visibility of the war and swing the flags according to the moods of the war, But I loved it when he got into the ward field the first time to drag Chandra out of the war field as they were loosing the battle.
history_geek thumbnail
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Posted: 8 years ago
#13
Here it is also important to differentiate with the battle tactics in ancient India and in medieval India. Ancient India was different, and there is no doubt about that.

Despite whatever Chanakya says in Arthashastra ; the fact of the matter is - there are sufficient manuals written by Manu and many other contemporary thinkers / philosophers etc. which give a fine description of the war ethics of those times. If we are reading Chanakya, we have to read the others too and argue in a balanced manner.

Chanakya's is a special case & his writings can not be taken to generalize the tactics adopted by all the other kings. Also, we should remember that the writings of Chanakya are advisory in nature. It is not a niti sastra nor the dharma sastra to which all the kings or priestly class adhered by.

Even Chanakya favors to fight a war on honest lines before employing any treacherous tactics. I mentioned it in an update. {Link} There are special cases & reasons for which he advocates treachery. Treachery is different and it should not be confused with ethical means. Harming women etc. on a systematic scale like done in medieval times was unheard of in BCE era - more so because they were themselves a part of the fighting forces. { Link } And this is 4th century BCE ; the post Vedic age, the condition of women was not so bad.

Certain code of warfare was followed and the situation was not so gory as we imagine to be. We have medieval examples too. Krishnadeva Raya released the wife of the defeated Gajapati ruler who had fallen in his hands. The reason given was his following the code of warfare as given in the sastras.

Since most discussion revolves around Chanakya, it is important to note that, he spared all the captives of war after defeat of the Nanda ruler & ordered Chandragupta to free them. This is mentioned in Mudra Rakshasa. Looks impossible ? But one of the text says this.

A Buddhist (or Jain, i forgot) account says that Chanakya spared the life of the Nanda ruler and allowed him to go alive with his wife and with as much treasure he wanted to take at once to the forest to live in exile.

As i mentioned earlier, {Link} the finest testimony of following ethics during a war in ancient India comes from the Greek ambassador Megasthenese who stayed in the court of Chandragupta Maurya, whereby he clearly expresses his surprise by saying - "while it is a common practice in all the nations of world to destroy the land of enemy and reduce it to uncultivable land during a war ; among the Indians, on the contrary the tillers of the soil who are regarded as sacred were treated inviolable. Even if the battle is raging in their neighborhood the combatants allow them to continue their work and they remain unmolested. Neither they destroy the enemy territory nor they put fire to it."

Megasthenese was surprised, probably, because prior to this experience he had seen the Greek form of warfare, which included total carnage and no adherence to any ethics in warfare. This makes him record this observation with a surprise. I have listed a massacre of Alexander in an old post on my thread whose link i shared above, when he was fighting against a Queen.

A glimpse of ethical warfare in ancient India is also found in the ancient Tamil epic called Silappadikaram. Members from the South, especially, must have read that epic. It mentions a case where members of the defeated army tried to escape the war field in disguise of ascetics / Brahman saints / war musicians etc. and they were not harmed by the victorious army. This is because the above mentioned category of people could not be harmed in a warfare according to the sastras. Still some of them were captured by Senguttuvan and brought to the monarch but he was reprimanded for having broken the code of warfare.

history_geek thumbnail
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Posted: 8 years ago
#14

Originally posted by: deejagi

Abhay, as I said, I have no problem with Chankya's portrayal as I know him as crude & cold strategist who even tried to eradicate the grass root, just because it abstracted his fast march (he stumbled upon as the grass got between his toe which disrupted his flow of thoughts. (though I didn't like the way he stood on the enemy fort (who will give way for him to get on to their fort) with clear visibility of the war and swing the flags according to the moods of the war, But I loved it when he got into the ward field the first time to drag Chandra out of the war field as they were loosing the battle.



I didn't know about the grass and uprooting and all, etc. event related to Chanakya. Thanks for sharing!

@Bold.. This was a ROFL moment. I watched the 2-3 war episodes only recently on hotstar while traveling. And whenever that flagging moment came, i laughed hard, much to the surprise of fellow travelers. It was hilarious.

They should have done something else, like prior instructions to CGM. CGM could have remembered the instructions in his head and executed it according to the demand of the battle.

Also hilarious was the vyuh rachna ; but at least they tried to show something like that. In Arthashastra, Chanakya has mentioned various kinds of battle formations, like snakes etc. but not the makdi one which we saw. ;)

colossial.mega thumbnail
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Posted: 8 years ago
#15

Originally posted by: deejagi



Dear if you want to know, I am a history student and have studied Indian history with eagerness (Not just Mauryan but also South Indian Dynasties). Here I am discussing about the way they are showcasing Chandra Gupta Maurya is not right. I am not denying the fact that he was angry with Nanda's for the crime conducted towards Piplivan king but he was a king of great Value and here they are showing him as a man with no values. I have no qualm with Chanakya's portray as of now.



In serials expect charecters to be good or bad. Their is no grey shade.

As you have studied history you must be knowing the controversy surrounding CGM past. Jain, Buddhist and Sanskrit literature has a different story of CGM past before his ascendance to the throne of Mauryan Empire.

I think Ekta got influenced by the story of Chandashok in Buddhist literature. Here Ashok was shown as an evil king who killed his 99 brothers to become the empire and his destructive Kalinga War. After his conversion to Buddhism he is shown as Ashoka the great.

I think in this story the same would happen. Nandini and CGM would get married, Dudhara would die in child birth and CGM would be aggressively expand his kingdom. After he falls in love with Nandini he would change but would face the wrath of Helena. They will still live together. After Bindusar would ascend the throne and Nandini would die then CGM would convert to Jainism and leave the empire forever. Helen would be left alone as Rajmata. I think Ekta would follow this script.
amina1 thumbnail
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Posted: 8 years ago
#16
Well said Abhay even to lastmughal empirer his sons were killed and at age of 84 he was exiled to burma and that was in 4 bc everything ifs fair in love and war
history_geek thumbnail
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Posted: 8 years ago
#17

Originally posted by: amina1

Well said Abhay even to lastmughal empirer his sons were killed and at age of 84 he was exiled to burma and that was in 4 bc everything ifs fair in love and war



Thank you Amina.

Indeed, it was horrible. The manner in which the Mughals were reduced to paupers by the British post 1857 is terrible. It was a systematic destruction of their legacy. It still evokes strong sentiments.

But i feel we have to differentiate between two different things here :

1st : the manner in which wars were fought and
2nd : the punishment given after the war. Your example falls in category 2.

As far as first topic is concerned, the ancient and medieval eras were different. Some rules were followed even in wars during ancient times. My comments were more about the wars and ethics etc. :)

history_geek thumbnail
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Posted: 8 years ago
#18

@Jaya / all

Going by the WU, CGM spared the life of the son of Nanda king who was mentally unstable(?). He gives the reasons : some ethical codes mentioned in the Dharm Sastras. And due to those codes he can not take away the life of that son of Nanda.

This is what i mentioned in the last comment on page -2 (before that episode was aired). A king in ancient era ruled by codes mentioned in the sastras.

*******************************

Here it is also important to differentiate with the battle tactics in ancient India and in medieval India. Ancient India was different, and there is no doubt about that.

Despite whatever Chanakya says in Arthashastra ; the fact of the matter is - there are sufficient manuals written by Manu and many other contemporary thinkers / philosophers etc. which give a fine description of the war ethics of those times. If we are reading Chanakya, we have to read the others too and argue in a balanced manner.

Chanakya's is a special case & his writings can not be taken to generalize the tactics adopted by all the other kings. Also, we should remember that the writings of Chanakya are advisory in nature. It is not a niti sastra nor the dharma sastra to which all the kings or priestly class adhered by.


*******************************

Chanakya's thoughts were way too practical and 'modern' for that age. That time, more or less, the things went according to Dharmasastras.

What is your take about this ? Code given in the DharmaSastras vs the code given in the Arthashastra. What was right ?

In the episode, as per WU, Chanakya also says that a king should govern according to the Dharmasastras. Then why did Chanakya himself write such things which went against these sastras ? Was he only writing an "idealistic manual on statecraft" which could not be implemented practically ?

I know i am mixing the REEL and REAL ones. But what you think about this ?

deejagi thumbnail
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Posted: 8 years ago
#19
Hi Abhay, this is what I was expecting Chandra Gupta Maurya to do and not to butcher the heads as if they are tender coconuts. I even loved the way he tortured Padmanand by scratching all over his body and leave him bleed than the way he chopped the heads of 7 Nandas. Yes as a future king he was right to avenge the Nanda for the wrong things he did to his mother land, as a son he had all the rights to take revenge on Padmanand, but as a human, he didn't do well with the way he killed the sons of his enemy. he should have followed the decorum which suits his level. There the CVs dropped him to the level of a animal slaughter which didn't go well with me. They equaled him to the level of Padmanand.

I will write about Chanakya's Rajneeti a little later as today being the 1st day of the month, little busy.
.Karna thumbnail
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Posted: 8 years ago
#20
dont know about nandini but chandra slaughtering the nand's prince is not wrong ( i m not saying , he was right either) .
Actually , there is a rule in war , that warrior should not harm any captive and armless warrior and also the one who ask for forgiveness , so in that sense , chandra was not wrong.
but there is rule , that if you want to capture the kingdom, you have to kill each and every male member of the dynasty , who was ruling the kingdom . So, Chandra was right.

its just like mahabharat's chakravyush, many people dont know that abhimanyu's death was neither wrong , nor right.
yup its wrong to simulatneously attack a single warrior . actually , chakravyuh is not meant to kill a single warrior, its to defeat the enemy's army . when the enemy's army enter in it , unpe all directions se attack hote hain , aur vo bhi group me. so abhimanyu was unlucky to enter alone . first , kaurava's followed the general rules of war , but then they followed the chakravyuh's rule to enjoy abhimayu's death.

so , i just want to say , chandra was neither right nor wrong . he was not a king that time , so he was just a warrior , or you could say a slaughter

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