History of Nandas | From Alexander 2 arrival of CGM | Update Pg-3 Wars - Page 3

Originally posted by: chahat4u

Thanks for this post. Much needed; was searching for info. Since I had heard it was Dhananda and not Padmanand who Chandragupta had overthrown.

Yes, it was Dhana Nanda who was overthrown by CGM, if we rely on the Greek testimony. BTW, Dhana or Padma (Nanda) are believed to be aliases.

PS : Good to see you in this forum. :)

Originally posted by: Nonie12345

Wonderful post Abhay😃

Thanks Nonie!

Came across this interesting terracotta (moulded) tablet which shows a high intensity war / fight scene, involving human and animals.

It shows a lion attacking an elephant. The lion is seen biting the elephant on its head. A man standing in front is in perfect position to strike the lion.

This is from 2nd century BCE.

Originally posted by: RadhikaS0

Abhay

Thanks for an informative and in-depth post on the Nandas. I am sure that most people who are interested in ancient history as well as those who are looking for more background info to the new show on Chandragupta Maurya on TV will find the article educative and relevant. Esp as it's difficult to come across a compilation of most of the known info about the Nandas at one place.

You started your post with the Dancing Girl of Mohenjodaro. I want to share something about her.

Though it can't be established with certainty that she was indeed freeze-framed in a dancing pose, there is an interesting story behind how she got the nomenclature of Dancing Girl. The politics surrounding the abolition of the Devadasi tradition in India of the 1920s had much to do with this.

When this impudent young teen was discovered around the time, she got enmeshed in the Devadasi debate with classical dance revivalists citing her to claim that dance as a cultural tradition in India was 5,000 years old and should not be shunned as something dishonourable in a "decent" society.

This entrancing story was revealed by H.D. Sankalia, one of the archaeologists associated with the excavation of Mohenjodaro.

This charming, very typically a modern, brash teen in her body language, is now at the limelight again as a Pakistani lawyer has demanded that she be returned "home" to the Lahore Museum. Remains to be seen if we lose the "face" of the Indus Valley civilization from our own National Museum.

Thanks Radhika!

These details are priceless. I was aware of everything except the involvement of this "dancing girl" in the Devadasi debate. So, will look into the antecedents of this debate. I have nothing to add to your well written comment, save the last paragraph. I was following this news very closely, so would write on this topic.

To start with, it is interesting that, a Tehreek-i-Insaaf MPA, recently asked for a ban on compulsory dance classes in schools, and on other hand a barrister from our neighboring country has demanded return for the dancing girl. The claim being - the sculpture was taken away from there 60 years back. However, another story suggests that the statue was taken to Delhi much before Partition by Mortimer Wheeler, the then DG of ASI.

Very few of us know that this demand was not made for the first time. At the time of the Shimla Agreement in 1972 (after surrender of Pakistan in 1971 war) , Prez Z.A. Bhutto requested the the then PM, Indira Gandhi, to return the "dancing girl" to its "home" ; as Bhutto hailed from Larkana district where the ancient city of MohenjoDaro is situated. Political scientists suggest than the motive of Bhutto was to win the people of Sindh to his side.

Same was done by his grandson, Bilawal Bhutto few years back. In fact he went to the extent of organising a Sindh festival at the site of the ancient city, hailing Mohenjo-Daro as a symbol of the ancientness of the Pakistani civilisation.


But, there are 2 problems.

First,
In contrast to the claims of "ancientness" made by Mr. Bhutto, the ground reality is something else. History textbooks in our neighboring country give an impression that the "actual" history started from the invasion of Sindh by Md. Bin Qasim, in 7th century AD ; though they teach about the Indus Valley..but...

- You may like to read this book, will take maximum 3 days : The Murder of History : A Critique of History Textbooks Used in Pakistan, By Khursheed Kamal Aziz (available on Amazon) . Review can be read here : http://www.dawn.com/news/1101992

- There is another source, from the website of UNESCO, Pakistan itself. Read the Report of the project : "A Civil Society Initiative in Curricula and Textbooks Reform" , from here : http://unesco.org.pk/education/teachereducation/reports.html . See report number 22, contains 154 pages, 4-5 hours read.



The second problem is the major one. And the actual hurdle.

Our neighbor can claim for the return of the "dancing girl" under UNESCO's Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property. This is a treaty which reflects the post-colonial milieu of its time where archaeological items were claimed by host countries from former colonial masters who had taken these away.

The treaty, however, focuses on items transferred to another country illegally. So, in present case, Pakistani diplomats would have to present the former British government as an "illegal government" and, hence, the transfer as illicit. But since the Pakistani state is a direct descendant of the colonial set-up, challenging its legitimacy would be akin to challenging its own legitimacy.


So, let us see what happens. :D

Originally posted by: Manzz

😃 Thanks 😃 😃 😃 😃 😃 😳 😳 😃 😃 😳 Good Job ! ! 😳 😃 Nice ! ! 😉 😆 😳 😆 😃 😉 😆 😆 ! ! 😉 😳 😳 😳 😳 😃 😃 😃 😉 😆 😆 😉 😆 😆 😆 😃 😳 😃 😃 😃

You're welcome. The comment is different ; full of emoticons and this colored background makes it look different from the rest.

Originally posted by: mandy001

Will read it soon, but plz pm me when u ll post anything

Sure, Swati!
I have a very small PM list (6-8) ; send PMs only to those who want it, otherwise not. I have sent you a buddy request. Henceforth, i will send the PM, if i make any post.

Originally posted by: ariyabestfan

Thanks for this post..

You're welcome. :)

Originally posted by: sharmacatty

Thankyou for the pm,abhay.

I have to read your last 2 posts too. Will read soon!!

Take your time, Payal.
Lot of back log to be cleared. ;)

Originally posted by: harshu27

thnx fr d pm abhay will read ur post and come up wid d comments if i have any doubts...😃

Welcome Harshal.
So, i presume the post was self explanatory (provided you have read it by now). ;)

Originally posted by: history_geek

Thanks Radhika!

These details are priceless. I was aware of everything except the involvement of this "dancing girl" in the Devadasi debate. So, will look into the antecedents of this debate. I have nothing to add to your well written comment, save the last paragraph. I was following this news very closely, so would write on this topic.

To start with, it is interesting that, a Tehreek-i-Insaaf MPA, recently asked for a ban on compulsory dance classes in schools, and on other hand a barrister from our neighboring country has demanded return for the dancing girl. The claim being - the sculpture was taken away from there 60 years back. However, another story suggests that the statue was taken to Delhi much before Partition by Mortimer Wheeler, the then DG of ASI.

Very few of us know that this demand was not made for the first time. At the time of the Shimla Agreement in 1972 (after surrender of Pakistan in 1971 war) , Prez Z.A. Bhutto requested the the then PM, Indira Gandhi, to return the "dancing girl" to its "home" ; as Bhutto hailed from Larkana district where the ancient city of MohenjoDaro is situated. Political scientists suggest than the motive of Bhutto was to win the people of Sindh to his side.

Same was done by his grandson, Bilawal Bhutto few years back. In fact he went to the extent of organising a Sindh festival at the site of the ancient city, hailing Mohenjo-Daro as a symbol of the ancientness of the Pakistani civilisation.


But, there are 2 problems.

First,
In contrast to the claims of "ancientness" made by Mr. Bhutto, the ground reality is something else. History textbooks in our neighboring country give an impression that the "actual" history started from the invasion of Sindh by Md. Bin Qasim, in 7th century AD ; though they teach about the Indus Valley..but...

- You may like to read this book, will take maximum 3 days : The Murder of History : A Critique of History Textbooks Used in Pakistan, By Khursheed Kamal Aziz (available on Amazon) . Review can be read here : http://www.dawn.com/news/1101992

- There is another source, from the website of UNESCO, Pakistan itself. Read the Report of the project : "A Civil Society Initiative in Curricula and Textbooks Reform" , from here : http://unesco.org.pk/education/teachereducation/reports.html . See report number 22, contains 154 pages, 4-5 hours read.



The second problem is the major one. And the actual hurdle.

Our neighbor can claim for the return of the "dancing girl" under UNESCO's Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property. This is a treaty which reflects the post-colonial milieu of its time where archaeological items were claimed by host countries from former colonial masters who had taken these away.

The treaty, however, focuses on items transferred to another country illegally. So, in present case, Pakistani diplomats would have to present the former British government as an "illegal government" and, hence, the transfer as illicit. But since the Pakistani state is a direct descendant of the colonial set-up, challenging its legitimacy would be akin to challenging its own legitimacy.


So, let us see what happens. :D

I missed this point (marked in blue color) about the origins of dance yesterday. As far as i know, dance is mentioned in Rig Veda ( i have its hard copy in my collection ). The dance of maidens is mentioned in it. And, dance of men is hinted in a hymn in Book 10, Hymn 76, mentioned below.

bhurantu no yasasah sotvandhaso ghravano vaca divitadivitmata |
naro yatra duhate kamyam madhvaghosayantoabhito mithasturah ||


Recently, various discoveries have been made which strengthen the assertion of dance being an ancient art / custom, etc. Following is a news item from this August, it talks about the Proto-historic rock art.

Research team stumbles on rock art of dancing images'
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/Research-team-stumbles-on-rock-art-of-dancing-images/articleshow/53868477.cms


We have the following from Mohenjodaro. C.3000 BCE

It resembles a bracelet with hollow gold conical studs flared around the bottom. The attachment onto the red cloth base is modern.


Don't you think this can be a tangible evidence of existence of dance in 2800-3000 BCE ? There are more clicks of such beautiful specimens but i am too lazy to put them here.


Following is a gold bracelet from Mohanjodaro. C. 3000 BCE.





Before ending, want to share an interesting snippet. There is a ceremony mentioned in Vedic literature - called "Simanta-onn-ayanna". In it, the wife is asked to sing a song merrily. This ceremony involves parting of the hair and is done in the middle of the 4th or 7th month of pregnancy. The lute players are asked to play lute in it. This ceremony was done to ensure the safety and well being of the mother and the child.

In the marriage ceremony the bridegroom was required to sing a gatha after the treading on the stone by the bride. There is specific mention of dance in the marriage ceremonies. Either 4 or 8 (married) women performed dance in the bride's wedding. I think its modern day variant is the sangeet ceremony before weddings, where men can not go.

Overall i think, dance and music was very much part of their lives in that time too. Even rock arts exist and we have seen the above specimen from Indus Valley Civilization.