A Question of Ethics : Chanakya, Dharma, Ashoka

RadhikaS0 thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#1

Hi All Ashoka Lovers,


This is my first post here. :) Hope all of you like it and that it makes you think about what motivates the 3 central characters, Chanakya, Dharma and Ashoka and how they are bound in a strange relationship whose ethics are debatable.


When some of the greatest thinkers like Chanakya and Ashoka are involved, can questions on ethics be far behind? But this present post is limited to a discussion of the ethics of Dharma relinquishing all rights over Ashoka and handing them over to Chanakya in the TV show.

Please note that this post has nothing to do with history nor does it endorse the view that Dharma did give away Ashoka to Chanakya in reality.


Chanakya


In Friday's (13th Feb, 2015) episode, Chanakya admits to his feelings of guilt on separating a mother and her son, half to himself and half to his faithful disciple. It was a poignant moment yet it filled me with a sense of relief. Till that moment, i had wondered if Chanakya didn't feel at all the immense sorrow of Dharma and Ashoka at being unable to meet or even acknowledge each other, just because those had been his orders. It seems he did feel the grief but his overwhelming loyalty to the Mauryan empire and its future was more important to him.

In his own words, he admitted that he would be pronounced guilty by history and labeled selfish and indeed, he felt he was selfish but he was doing it all for the greater good of the Mauryan empire and, if on the road to securing the future of the empire, he had to sacrifice a few relationships or use some people as pawns, so be it.

{

Do ends justify means? This is the question here. It is true that a mighty empire needs a mighty emperor to keep it together and expand it in all possible ways. It is also true that emperors are generally made and not born. If Chanakya saw the future of Magadh in Ashoka and wanted to nurture it, there's nothing wrong with it. But the way he is going about it is questionable, if not downright objectionable.

The second question that arises is who is more important - the state or the individual? Should an individual be used as a pawn to strengthen an empire, irrespective of his / her own wishes? What about the rights of a citizen?

}

It may have been my imagination but i felt that Chanakya was trying to fool himself into believing his own words. He sounded as someone who was trying desperately to assuage his guilty conscience that what he was doing was not wrong because it would ultimately result in the good of the empire.


Dharma


Dharma had shielded Ashoka from his destiny all these years but now that destiny had come searching for him to his doorstep and wouldn't take No for an answer. She also possibly knew in her heart that she would never be able to give a secure life to Ashoka, the kind of life Chanakya could succeed in providing. She trusted Chanakya implicitly and, more so, after his efforts to prove her son innocent in the assassination attempt on King B. It may also have been her desire that at least her son should enjoy the love and company of his father.

In any case, it is exceedingly tough for a mother to part from her son for anything in the world, even the future of her husband's empire. Esp a mother who has no one except that son in her world and has learned to revolve her life around him. To see your son in front of you every day and still remain away from him as if he were a stranger is like twisting a sharp knife thru your insides and not even be able to cry about it.

It is said every person must be recompensed for anything they give. Chanakya must be well aware of this principle. So it remains to be seen how he compensates Dharma for sacrificing her son. Or does he feel that the fact that her son would be king one day is enough recompense to her?


{

Think of Dharma's ordeal in Tuesday's episode (Feb 17, 2015) when she learns that her son has been kidnapped by a demon. She cannot even cry openly nor seek help from anyone in this regard.

}



Ashoka


What about the little kid, Ashoka himself? I feel the most for him - a pawn in a political game, who is paying a heavy price without even knowing or understanding why. A child who is being politically used by blackmailing him emotionally thru his mother and by holding his mother captive so that he cannot try any tricks or escape.

The scene when Dharma tells him that from then on, he must listen to everything Chanakya says just the way he obeyed his mother in the past without questioning her, moved me to tears. Ashoka is not given any explanation or reason as to why he must stay away from his mother, why he must never acknowledge that she is his mother and why he must remain bonded to Chanakya. And the amazing love for his mother shines thru here when he accepts his mother's decision and gives her his word in this regard, even though his heart is dull with pain and his sharp mind must be swirling with many questions.

{

This kind of blind faith in his mother and acceptance of her words without questioning was also seen in the scene where he is being tortured by Bindusar's men just before his trial in the assassination attempt case. His mother makes him promise that he would not reveal her identity and he agrees EVEN in that condition when he is facing death. It was a stunning revelation about his relationship with his mother and makes it so easy to believe when he says that his universe lies at the feet of his mother.

But why then does the mother need to extract promises from him? Doesn't she trust him as much as he does?

}

Scenes like this make us stop and think that Ashoka was one of those rare people who ARE born great. To him, the only ethical question is whether he is able to keep his mother happy or not. It doesn't matter to him that she is handing him over to a relative stranger to an uncertain future. (To a child, future with his mother would seem more certain and secure than anything else.)

Ashoka seems aware that Chanakya has some big gameplan up his sleeve; he doesn't yet know just what it is but he is willing to play along just because his mother trusts this man. And he has his own dreams of becoming an emperor one day and he may be of the belief that being close to the king would enable him to spot opportunities to move closer to his dream.

But still, it is amazing how Ashoka is able to maintain a cheerful disposition in spite of his circumstances. The other day, when he was hurt in the race with Sushima and was treated briefly by his mother, it was such a tender yet heart-wrenching moment. How much Ashoka would have wanted to share news of his win with his mother, how much he would have wanted to be pampered by her. How much she would have wanted to hug him and kiss his tears away. Chanakya wanted to send him to a dispensary for treatment but the self-respecting boy declined. Nurses could heal his injuries but only his mother could heal the hurt in his heart. And if he couldn't be healed by her touch, he didn't want to be healed at all.

{

The question is, is it possible for Ashoka to go on like this, away from his only emotional anchor, when he is in his teens, when he needs a mother's guidance and love the most?

Would he be able to keep his love for her alive, in spite of her staying away from him? Or will resentment slowly make its way into his heart and embitter his soul against her?

}


What do you feel?

This is a strange, uneasy relationship among these three. Each has accepted this relationship for their own reasons, putting the ethics of it all in the background.

But for us, ignoring the question is not easy. Please share your thoughts on this question and whether you think they are justified in their stands.


Please read this conversation too because it answers many of the points being commonly raised.😊



Edited by RadhikaS0 - 10 years ago

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history_geek thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#2
Radhika,

A power packed post. !!

As usual you have brought forth the least thought about points in your post. Your post reflects majority of my opinion, hence you have left very little to be said by me here. Still, let me give what i feel like in brief. :)

Note:
My Post has nothing to do with REAL History in strict sense, as these circumstances are creation of much dreaded weapon which every PH has armed itself with these days , i.e., - > " Natkiye Rupanter " . :-P


About Chanakya

He is acting in the manner he ought to be. We should remember that the FIRST Dharma of a Guru is NOT to flow in his emotions but to guide his disciple in order to attain the maximum level of perfection. Everything comes at a cost and so is Perfection. And that, Chanakya can only do by keeping Ashoka close to him.

Along with being a Guru to the first 2 Mauryan Emperors, he also happens to be the one who laid the foundation of Mauryans in Bharat. He is like a Prime Minister(mahamatya). The role which is played by Chanakya here has multiple shades. HE is the Guru, like the Mahamatya, the guide, the protector of throne of Magadha, the Kingmaker, and what not..!


About Dharma

I think she has understood that it is in the best interests of -
1. Magadh
2. Bindusara
3. And in the interest of his own son

I agree, getting separated from her son, and watching him close to enemies and dangers is not an easy task for a mother, but but but, at the same time, she has expressed her complete faith in Chanakya as well.

She is well aware of the fact that in order to guard Ashoka and proof him innocent, he took an arrow on his own chest. I some how feel, inspite of some occasional moments of anxiety and worry, which are natural for any mother when she watches her kid in problems, Dharma is very much composed lady.

About Ashoka
This Kid knows nothing right now. He is simply thinking that he has to pay 50 Pans as his punishment amount and will get free after that. Little does he knows that he is being trained implicitly by the same person he detests the most - Chankaya -> The person whom he has planned to get "measured" by the means of him getting fined and flogged(how many times ?). 😆


Conclusion:

I do consider that being a child and separating him from his mother is not right. I do not agree with the makers when they showed Chanakya in a feeling of guilt for separating the mother son.

In ancient times, we had the concept of GuruKuls, where any how a child had to be separated from his mother. We saw this in the show PRC where Prithviraj Chauhan was enacted by a young Rajat Tokas. So, this bit about separation of Ashoka and Dharma can be understood in some sense in this regard as well. :)

This is the bane of being a ruler. Many a times, you have to keep your emotions behind and think and work for the betterment of the land to which one belongs and ought to rule.

As , Uncle Ben of our very own ' Spidy ' says in the First edition -> ""With greatER power comes GREATER responsibilities." Same is the case here. The trio of Chanakya-Dharma-Ashoka is at some serious work for the welfare of Magadh, and Bharat, of course. :D

Edited by history_geek - 10 years ago
MaddyO thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#3
Radhika so good to see your thread here. 😃 As usual your post is thought provoking.

I understand it is very painful for Dharma to not meet Ashoka openly but she is around him, she knows WHY she has to do this, right?

It is simple fact that if Dharma and Ashoka's truth comes out there is big chance of their lives being in risk, not just a chance but almost certainty. Dharma has faced Mir's attack once.
When there is already a power war going on over the future emperor between Charumitra-Sushim & Noor-Siyama. What will happen if suddenly Dharma (they are also showing Bindusaar pining for Dharma - so you can imagine the reaction of both queens if she were to appear amongst them taking prominence!) and Ashoka truth is revealed?

For how long could Dharma have kept hiding in jungle changing places? What kind of life she was going to give Ashoka in future? Granted what she did then was necessary to protect Ashoka and Dharma both - then. However, now is the time for Ashoka to be trained to accept his future responsibilities. Ashoka has got his genes so he already wants to be emperor - even if of jungle!

I agree with what Abhay wrote - this was 2,300 years back - children used to go to Gurukuls for learning and stay away from parents for years together. Surely by that comparison Dharma has it easy.

Chanakya is doing right - agreed he has a vested interest in Ashoka but that is not for selfish reasons but cos he wants to secure the future of Magadh or Bharatvarsha. I wonder what if Chanakya had discovered truth of Dharma-Ashoka without any sign from Chandragupta? Would he have taken any special interest in them otherwise? Would he have taken Ashoka under his wings? He just might have cos he would know Ashoka is one of the options for future emperor of Magadh.

Both Chanakya and Dharma are doing this to Ashoka for his better future and also to keep him safe. Dharma knows this - why otherwise she would have taken vachan from Ashoka (when he was arrested) not to tell about her to anybody? That time she had not handed over Ashok to Chanakya to raise. Dharma did it anyway - so she knows why she has to keep their identities hidden.

Chanakya made Dharma give the vachan and give over Ashoka's future upbringing to him - only because he sees the potential in Ashoka and wants to teach him - the way he taught Chandragupta. If he could have done it openly he would have. The secrecy is not for Chankya it is for Ashoka.

When Chanakya sees the possibility of Sushim or Siyama becoming future emperors we can understand his anxiety over Magadh - he is only trying to safeguard his motherland. After all he did go thru the Alexander and Dhananand periods - so he knows exactly what needs to be done so things do not go back to that stage.

Chanakya is safeguarding Ashoka and his future along with Magadh's.
Both Chankya and Dharma are doing that.

Even when Ashoka does not know and might not understand the reason - he has to put his trust and faith in Chankya - cos Dharma told him to - children have to trust that their parents/elders know best and if they are doing something it has to be with their best interest in mind.
Ashoka does know this - this is why even when he does not want to - he agrees to Dharma's orders and does what Chanakya is telling him to do.

Ashoka maybe showing some anger against Chankya but I am sure in his heart he knows that Chankya does not represent any thread to him or his mother - he has seen the proof of that.

I would have felt differently if this was to be a permanent situation. Where Chanakya took Ashoka from Dharma and removed her from his life completely. Chankya has not done this - nor is this situation permanent. In near future when Chanakya feels Ashoka is capable enough or when both Dharma-Ashoka have come to understand the inner workings of the palace intrigues and real faces of the important people - he can reveal the truth and give the rightful places of Dharma and Ashoka to them - both in Bindusar's life and Magadh's.

What might happen in future is not in Chanakya's hands he is just doing his duty towards Magadh and making Ashoka ready to accept his destiny.

Chankya is the one who will give their rights to both Dharma & Ashoka and that will unite them again. Surely that will happen - how else can Ashoka become emperor?!!!

ayushimehra thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#4
Congrats, First thread on this forum,

I read three posts, Abhay, Maddi & your, all are Good.

About Ansing, your Post, Remberering point is this, :"GURU, Place or Role in ANCIANT, India

Guru was the Key, of Making Good King, or Countary. Chanakya, did that, a perfect form.
, India is Famous for his Guru's. Guru's duty was, not to Teach, spritual lesson, but They have to Right, Shape disciple, whole Personailty, how they Want.?Or Lot of respect, Disciples, mind about, Their Guru.or Guru, also complete his duty, or made disciples, a nice personality.

History, is witness, who respect, guru words, They reached top level, Krishna, Rama, Arjuna, Even Ekklavaya.

who not respected, Guru words,They where reach, Durudhona, Kans, Ravna, (Ravna respects Shiva lot, But His one mistake, Shiva, went very far away from him.Ravna not listened, his guru voice.so result all we know.

Chanakya, Name also comes in Top, Guru's.list He knows Front person, How much astemena, or How That estemna should be use. He was a very sharp mind personalityHidden things in future He can catch, or how handle those things he knows. History, is witness., Chanakya, Shaped, Bharta, Varsh, (india ), After chanakya, or Ashoka, what happened, how history start to change, or India faced lot.,

But Cause of Chanakya, Gupt period was The GOLDEN period of India,👏 👏


so when chanakya, realised, which kingdom he astablished, by Chandragupta, now cause of selfcenterdness, goes to downfall situation, so he tried his best, After knowing, Ashoka is Son of Bindusara,or Knowing, Ashoka has qualties, of Handling, whole Magadh, or India, he started to work on it.

But situations was that type, if he reveals, Dharma or Ashoka identity, this time, lose happens, Both,

India or Maybee Ashoka, or Dharma life can go to danger. Chankya knows, Jestin, +Helan, Nature.

He is clear, Sussem or Charumittra,, Noor, all are power Hungery.Only Mission, My son Should sit on Throne. Capable Yes or Not. No body is worring, About Magadh, or Bhart,when person start to think, about own own childs, me me me, Then Brain minded, person have to take decesion, or stupidness, people cost everytime pays, by Brain minded. Have a fun, because they have a Brain.

(Isn't all falut is, forgetting name Nur father, who attacked Ashoka or Dharma, Cheated Bindusar,
Jestin, assteen kaa sapp, Both wives, Noor is exploiting him, Both levels, As a wife realtion with jestin
or a Mother, Her dream is her son will sit. or Helen everytime Brain washing Bindusar, So who will pay cost. Intelligent, or giving. But see difference, Once want to Save Magadh, or country, or giving, a Decent values, after that which will came,Solid Ashoka. if he not does this, India will be attacked, by enemies. or then which comes more worst.

When you have to do Big, so somesacrifice, Sure, will Happen.

If Chanakya not built, first, Chandergupta, or Not gives,Right policyies, How we get, Good india that time. or he expanded a lot of energy that time, Ashoka.

You are Right, Ashoka is living, far away from, his Mom. But he spended lot of time, childhood, with her Mom. Now time is Tree, means Ashoka Growing or he has Vast energy, Shape Giving is necessary this time.Values, also makes a Child Broad.Soliders, giving duty on Borders, their wife, or childs, Living without them, or they are giving Nation security. Mothers, Wives, childs also feel emotional, But because ques, is job, ques, is Nation, So It happened last time, or will sure happen, present, or Future.

we own send our child schools, Mother Role is imp, but she can't give, Everything to Child.or Ashoka will Get that. If ashoka spends whole life with her Mom, who knows him, cause of him his

Husband, all knows Who s Dharma.So King is Big so sacrifice also will be big, But good thing is this time, Child is front of her. she can see, indirectely.or if we have to choose, child safty, or child living, where, ques, becomes first, Child safty, or she is doing that.

Chankya what will get, Nothing, But he is doing, because Healthy Nation will be built.if he permits Both can meet, eachother, suspection eyes, will notice them, or Life will become tough or can go to danger.or Mothers habits becomes Emotional, so this time, Learning is necessary.But because, he is justful person, so he knows, He is doing, unfair as you wrote. Because, atleast reason which maybee, both are living seperated form. But its time Demands.

But thank to that time, Thoughts, who values, Guru's words, or respect a Lot,

Gurur-Brahmaa Gurur-Vissnnur-Gururdevo Maheshvarah |
Gurure[-I]va Param Brahma Tasmai Shrii-Gurave Namah ||1||

Meaning:
1.1: The Guru is Brahma, the Guru is Vishnu, the Guru Deva isMaheswara (Shiva),
1.2: The Guru is Verily the Para-Brahman (Supreme Brahman);Salutations to that Guru.
Edited by ayushimehra - 10 years ago
mistofshadows thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#5
Wow! Brilliant posts all of you.

Though after my ponderings on Chanakya's character (in the show, no connection with history), I find myself rooting for him.
As one of the posts have clearly mentioned, Chanakya will get nothing in the end. True he is being manipulative, using people as pawns, separating a child from his mother, but such a person can be blacklisted only if his actions arr for his gain.
He being selfless is looking for the Greater Good. True, in such a lookout, the individual is given less thought then the state but sometimes it is absolutely necessary. It may sound vile, but sometimes sacrificing one to save thousands is required. And that is what Chanakya is doing adding the plus point that Ashok is most certainly not being killed.
Adding to that, yesterday's episode solidified it for me.
Sushim, is a psychopath. His temper is voracious and he gets sadistic pleasure out of others pain. His mother knowing it quite well, does nothing to curb it only warning him to be careful.
Siamak is a child but not without his own faults. Brotherhood is something to be cherished, but he seemingly gets utter happiness putting his elder brother down in front of their father. True he is a kid, true Sushim would never show him brotherly feelings, but his sneer as he won in the fight yesterday told a story of his pride and superiority beliefs, the seed sown by his own mother, Noor, who constantly urges him to get the mentality of being his brothers' enemy.
Then there is Ashok, a naughty teen, arrogant, prideful, egoistic, and a permanent rule-breaker, who yesterday also got the title of a thief. And yet all his actions are always for others. He wants to be a Samrat to help his people.
Its no wonder Chanakya has put all his missiles on him. If Sushim or Siamak were to become Samrat, God help Bharat. Chanakya has seen this too, after all he is much clear sighted than Bindusara and knows that if Sushim or Siamak.is denied throne, it will fall to Justin which means giving the throne to Nicator. This is the reason that he introduced a whole new piece in the game. Ashok. I feel even if he wouldn't have been Bindusara's son, he would have somehow cheated Chanakya (taking the ring and horse) and Chanakya would have made him his disciple, out of sheer curiosity of Ashok's temperament.
Meself thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#6
A brilliant post!

Ethics: a very diabolical weapon indeed, as it means differently to different people. I remember a dialogue from the new Mahabharata where Shakuni was trying to justify his action by saying, "Dharma ki vyakha sabhi ke liye bhinna hoti hai." And it is true! One man's revolutionary is often another man's terrorist.



Coming to think about it, take a brief look at this man called Chanakya/Kautilya. He can be dubbed as shrewd, selfish, monstrous, cold-hearted, vindictive and what not!? But adjectives to the very man change to selfless, patriot, great, compassionate, forthcoming and what not, once we change the perspective.



This debate of who is more important, the state or its citizen, the present or the future is an endless one. How can either be justified? We can wring our throats clear saying that state always comes first and everything done in order to raise it to higher grounds is acceptable and justified but citizens too form an integral part of a nation; how can they be not be taken in consideration? Chanakya feeling guilty was perhaps the rummaging of his sub-conscious through this very fact. But he very strongly and immediately shakes it away and focuses on what he has devoted his life to, i.e., strengthening the empire. And for the same every tactics, every shrewdness can be put to employment.




If you ask me, then I'd probably say that yes the nation and the duty comes way and above anyone else. And you can put every deceit to good use in order to force your kingdom to flourish impeccably. But on a deeper level I undoubtedly would be guilty to harbor such cold and callous thoughts, even if they are for the betterment of the civilians. Maybe Chanakya is battling the same sets of issues and his logical, calculative and practical mind seems to winning over a sympathetic heart and soul.



Dharma, well since history has rarely made strong stand about this woman, it very difficult to deduce what her ethics would thereafter shape into. So far she has come across as a timid woman who surprisingly makes a strong stand for her own son. Even if that breaks her heart and twists a knife into her soul, she is accepting it all silently. Her unshed tears and silent cries are enough to prove the turmoil that she is going through every single day. But she isn't the strong player here who will be able to make her stand. She isn't as powerful as Charumitra or manipulative as Noor. If she is now introduced in the royal setting chances are that both she and her son would be eliminated.




Part of me thinks, that this fact is very well known to her and this exactly what prompted her to handover her son to Chanakya. Kunti had once said that a mother's ultimate mission is safeguard her children, even if that means tearing them away from a heart that finds warmth only when the child comes running up to her. Dharma too is making a very similar stand here. She may have been arm-twisted into giving Asoka to Chanakya, but the downright truth is that this is the only insurance policy that she has at the moment. Her ethics according to me are ever evolving. It meanders and take shapes according to the need of her son. Since she has no interests of her own other her son's safety she is willingly at some level surrendering herself to the course of fate.




Now coming to Asoka. Then yes, I agree with you that some people are born great, while others have greatness thrust upon them.' Asoka here belongs to the former group. At the moment he is forced into being a mere pawn in this massive political game, but the tides are rising in his favor way too fast. And before we know it he'll be the ultimate master in this game. Maybe this is exactly what Chanakya is aiming at. He has to make sure that Asoka becomes self sufficient sooner, as that would benefit the empire. But since he has no prior training, experience here shall play the greatest teacher!




So far we have seen that Asoka is a boy-man of his words. Even when he was facing death sentence he boldly kept his defense and made everyone reconsider their stand. What surprised me the most is that at a tender age such as this he has the making of a leader. When Sushim began brawl at having lost the race, Asoka had the grace to let matters go. When he was being extended the courtesy of a full medical care, he refused. That refusal had determination and not stench of attitude. What surprises me the most is his behavior towards Chanakya? Yes he is pretty irritated at this old man who has curbed all his freedom, but even that irritation carries generous wallops of sheer respect. Right from their first meeting things have pretty much remained the same. The best part about him probably would his shrouded ethics. So far it is nothing but shallow philosophies that he himself keeps dismissing every now and then, but even that is undergoing a curious sea-change. This became evident when Asoka accepted the challenge and defeated Sushim.



While all three of them have their own sets of demons to face and conquer, ultimately somewhere all their intentions would finally intersect and that'll happen for a greater good. And maybe then their stands and their action would be justified!
Edited by Meself - 10 years ago
RadhikaS0 thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#7

Originally posted by: history_geek

Radhika,

A power packed post. !!

As usual you have brought forth the least thought about points in your post. Your post reflects majority of my opinion, hence you have left very little to be said by me here. Still, let me give what i feel like in brief. :)

Note:
My Post has nothing to do with REAL History in strict sense, as these circumstances are creation of much dreaded weapon which every PH has armed itself with these days , i.e., - > " Natkiye Rupanter " . :-P


About Chanakya

He is acting in the manner he ought to be. We should remember that the FIRST Dharma of a Guru is NOT to flow in his emotions but to guide his disciple in order to attain the maximum level of perfection. Everything comes at a cost and so is Perfection. And that, Chanakya can only do by keeping Ashoka close to him.

Along with being a Guru to the first 2 Mauryan Emperors, he also happens to be the one who laid the foundation of Mauryans in Bharat. He is like a Prime Minister(mahamatya). The role which is played by Chanakya here has multiple shades. HE is the Guru, like the Mahamatya, the guide, the protector of throne of Magadha, the Kingmaker, and what not..!


About Dharma

I think she has understood that it is in the best interests of -
1. Magadh
2. Bindusara
3. And in the interest of his own son

I agree, getting separated from her son, and watching him close to enemies and dangers is not an easy task for a mother, but but but, at the same time, she has expressed her complete faith in Chanakya as well.

She is well aware of the fact that in order to guard Ashoka and proof him innocent, he took an arrow on his own chest. I some how feel, inspite of some occasional moments of anxiety and worry, which are natural for any mother when she watches her kid in problems, Dharma is very much composed lady.

About Ashoka
This Kid knows nothing right now. He is simply thinking that he has to pay 50 Pans as his punishment amount and will get free after that. Little does he knows that he is being trained implicitly by the same person he detests the most - Chankaya -> The person whom he has planned to get "measured" by the means of him getting fined and flogged(how many times ?). 😆


Conclusion:

I do consider that being a child and separating him from his mother is not right. I do not agree with the makers when they showed Chanakya in a feeling of guilt for separating the mother son.

In ancient times, we had the concept of GuruKuls, where any how a child had to be separated from his mother. We saw this in the show PRC where Prithviraj Chauhan was enacted by a young Rajat Tokas. So, this bit about separation of Ashoka and Dharma can be understood in some sense in this regard as well. :)

This is the bane of being a ruler. Many a times, you have to keep your emotions behind and think and work for the betterment of the land to which one belongs and ought to rule.

As , Uncle Ben of our very own ' Spidy ' says in the First edition -> ""With greatER power comes GREATER responsibilities." Same is the case here. The trio of Chanakya-Dharma-Ashoka is at some serious work for the welfare of Magadh, and Bharat, of course. :D


Hi Abhay,

Well said as ever! 👏

About Chanakya:

I have no problems if he keeps Ashoka close to himself and mentors him. It's the way he is doing this that bothers me. He may be a huge figure in the political scene of Magadh, but that still does not give him license to play with the lives of people around him without compunctions. True, he is doing this for the state but this is where the question of ethics comes in.

This is my Q: Is the State so overwhelmingly important that it can ride roughshod over the lives of its citizens and make them go against their wishes? Dharma has given Ashoka to Chanakya but RELUCTANTLY. He is using various devices to control her and Ashoka. All this is allowed as per political dharma (as we can see in Arthashastra also). But when raj dharma goes against manav dharma then which should be given preference?

Regarding Chanakya's feeling of guilt: Every person is born with a sense of guilt or conscience. Chanakya too would have one. He may not have expressed this in his books or even in his life to anyone, but that does NOT preclude the possibility that his conscience would prick him from time to time. It's another matter that he satisfies this conscience by believing in his own purpose in life, which is the protection of Magadh.

About Dharma:

In Tuesday's episode (Feb 17, 2015) also, she tells God that she didn't want this destiny for her child and she was quite happy with him as they were before Chanakya entered their lives. Not exact words, but the sentiment is this.

What is composure? In my personal experience, I appear outwardly composed in situations of extreme duress, even when I am breaking down internally. Because of the way I have been conditioned. I would say pretty much the same for Dharma. We have to look beyond her outer mask and peep into her heart and mind to see the struggle she is going thru every moment. Yesterday when she saw Ashoka blind and hurt badly by the demon and still couldn't acknowledge to him that she was indeed his mother, I can well imagine the pain she must have felt inside even though she looked "composed" outside. It is the tragedy of a woman universally that she often has to appear composed and "respect the need of the hour" and put her own feelings locked up.

About Ashoka

He is a child and a happy-go-lucky child, which compounds his tragedy. Already he knows that even after paying the 50 pan and being freed by the king, he still can't go away with his mother. Till now, hope of freedom was there that kept him going despite the trying circumstances.

But now he is wising up to the dangers that abound in Pataliputra, as he tells his mother - "this place is not meant for us, it is full of plots and intrigue".

About Gurukuls:

A gurukul is a place where children go to study. They are well looked after and are safe and secure. So parents are fine with sending their kids to gurukuls. Even now, we have boarding schools.

But Ashoka is not "studying books" or "even learning warfare etc". He was employed as a stable boy with barely decent working conditions and food. I think this is where we need to pause and reflect. Which mother can see her son being kicked about, cleaning stables, going hungry? Is this really similar to sending a child to a gurukul? Even if I were starving, I would still keep my child with myself rather than give him away to someone and see my child being employed as a servant somewhere.

When a child goes to a gurukul, his next few years are at least secure. But here Dharma has no security /certainty regarding the future of Ashoka with Chanakya. She has seen him being kidnapped by a demon. SHe has seen the dangers in Pataliputra. She is only relying on Chanakya's words that he is helping Ashoka realise his destiny, even though she has her doubts.

I would say she is paying a very heavy price to secure the future of Magadh.

When a child goes to a gurukul, he comes back home to his parents in the end. But here she has completely RELINQUISHED her motherhood rights over Ashoka and she has fears that Chanakya would never let her and her son get together again. How painful is that to a mother?

King Dashrath sent Ram as a child to a gurukul. The same king died of the anguish of separation when Ram went into exile. Did he think then that this was only to honor his word and Ram would be back in a few years?

This was my Q: Chanakya may have high and noble goals in mind but he is making a mother and son pay a heavy price - how is he going to recompense them for that? Or just because he is the be all, end all of the Mauryan empire, he can get away with it all and do just what he thinks is best? Is he NOT accountable to anyone?
Edited by RadhikaS0 - 10 years ago
RadhikaS0 thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#8

Originally posted by: MaddyO

Radhika so good to see your thread here. 😃 As usual your post is thought provoking.

I understand it is very painful for Dharma to not meet Ashoka openly but she is around him, she knows WHY she has to do this, right?

It is simple fact that if Dharma and Ashoka's truth comes out there is big chance of their lives being in risk, not just a chance but almost certainty. Dharma has faced Mir's attack once.
When there is already a power war going on over the future emperor between Charumitra-Sushim & Noor-Siyama. What will happen if suddenly Dharma (they are also showing Bindusaar pining for Dharma - so you can imagine the reaction of both queens if she were to appear amongst them taking prominence!) and Ashoka truth is revealed?

For how long could Dharma have kept hiding in jungle changing places? What kind of life she was going to give Ashoka in future? Granted what she did then was necessary to protect Ashoka and Dharma both - then. However, now is the time for Ashoka to be trained to accept his future responsibilities. Ashoka has got his genes so he already wants to be emperor - even if of jungle!

I agree with what Abhay wrote - this was 2,300 years back - children used to go to Gurukuls for learning and stay away from parents for years together. Surely by that comparison Dharma has it easy.

Chanakya is doing right - agreed he has a vested interest in Ashoka but that is not for selfish reasons but cos he wants to secure the future of Magadh or Bharatvarsha. I wonder what if Chanakya had discovered truth of Dharma-Ashoka without any sign from Chandragupta? Would he have taken any special interest in them otherwise? Would he have taken Ashoka under his wings? He just might have cos he would know Ashoka is one of the options for future emperor of Magadh.

Both Chanakya and Dharma are doing this to Ashoka for his better future and also to keep him safe. Dharma knows this - why otherwise she would have taken vachan from Ashoka (when he was arrested) not to tell about her to anybody? That time she had not handed over Ashok to Chanakya to raise. Dharma did it anyway - so she knows why she has to keep their identities hidden.

Chanakya made Dharma give the vachan and give over Ashoka's future upbringing to him - only because he sees the potential in Ashoka and wants to teach him - the way he taught Chandragupta. If he could have done it openly he would have. The secrecy is not for Chankya it is for Ashoka.

When Chanakya sees the possibility of Sushim or Siyama becoming future emperors we can understand his anxiety over Magadh - he is only trying to safeguard his motherland. After all he did go thru the Alexander and Dhananand periods - so he knows exactly what needs to be done so things do not go back to that stage.

Chanakya is safeguarding Ashoka and his future along with Magadh's.
Both Chankya and Dharma are doing that.

Even when Ashoka does not know and might not understand the reason - he has to put his trust and faith in Chankya - cos Dharma told him to - children have to trust that their parents/elders know best and if they are doing something it has to be with their best interest in mind.
Ashoka does know this - this is why even when he does not want to - he agrees to Dharma's orders and does what Chanakya is telling him to do.

Ashoka maybe showing some anger against Chankya but I am sure in his heart he knows that Chankya does not represent any thread to him or his mother - he has seen the proof of that.

I would have felt differently if this was to be a permanent situation. Where Chanakya took Ashoka from Dharma and removed her from his life completely. Chankya has not done this - nor is this situation permanent. In near future when Chanakya feels Ashoka is capable enough or when both Dharma-Ashoka have come to understand the inner workings of the palace intrigues and real faces of the important people - he can reveal the truth and give the rightful places of Dharma and Ashoka to them - both in Bindusar's life and Magadh's.

What might happen in future is not in Chanakya's hands he is just doing his duty towards Magadh and making Ashoka ready to accept his destiny.

Chankya is the one who will give their rights to both Dharma & Ashoka and that will unite them again. Surely that will happen - how else can Ashoka become emperor?!!!


Hi Maddy

After ages, we are exchanging long posts about a show - it's such a wonderful feeling to be discussing at length with old friends like we used to about JA. 😊

Lovely post which tries to be as clear cut as possible. 😊Maddy, I have answered a few of the points you have raised in my reply to Abhay:


Regarding safety of Ashoka:

I agree this is not the time to reveal Ashoka's identity. Yet his identity remaining a secret is NOT safeguarding him. He has had a brush with a human-demon. He has managed to become the sworn enemy of Sushim already. He is already aware of the political games being played or likely to be played in Pataliputra.

How much safety can Chanakya provide to Ashoka at all times when the child is living outside the palace / away from Chanakya too?

Chanakya is himself open to conspiracies and assassination attempts. It was sheer good luck that he survived the drowning attempt and returned to save Ashoka. Or Ashoka would have died then only. If Chanakya maintains so much secrecy and then dies suddenly before completing his mission, what will happen to Ashoka?

Dharma is one unfortunate woman at the moment. She cannot call her husband as her husband or her son as her son. She is watching them and experiencing so much agony every moment. It's NOT fine to be near them. If the person is near yet removed from her loved ones. In fact, being near them only adds to her pain more.

The PH had initially said that Chanakya would die midway before Ashoka actually becomes king and Ashoka would have to become king on his own efforts later on.
RadhikaS0 thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#9

Originally posted by: Meself

A brilliant post!

Ethics: a very diabolical weapon indeed, as it means differently to different people. I remember a dialogue from the new Mahabharata where Shakuni was trying to justify his action by saying, "Dharma ki vyakha sabhi ke liye bhinna hoti hai." And it is true! One man's revolutionary is often another man's terrorist.



Coming to think about it, take a brief look at this man called Chanakya/Kautilya. He can be dubbed as shrewd, selfish, monstrous, cold-hearted, vindictive and what not!? But adjectives to the very man change to selfless, patriot, great, compassionate, forthcoming and what not, once we change the perspective.



This debate of who is more important, the state or its citizen, the present or the future is an endless one. How can either be justified? We can wring our throats clear saying that state always comes first and everything done in order to raise it to higher grounds is acceptable and justified but citizens too form an integral part of a nation; how can they be not be taken in consideration? Chanakya feeling guilty was perhaps the rummaging of his sub-conscious through this very fact. But he very strongly and immediately shakes it away and focuses on what he has devoted his life to, i.e., strengthening the empire. And for the same every tactics, every shrewdness can be put to employment.




If you ask me, then I'd probably say that yes the nation and the duty comes way and above anyone else. And you can put every deceit to good use in order to force your kingdom to flourish impeccably. But on a deeper level I undoubtedly would be guilty to harbor such cold and callous thoughts, even if they are for the betterment of the civilians. Maybe Chanakya is battling the same sets of issues and his logical, calculative and practical mind seems to winning over a sympathetic heart and soul.



Dharma, well since history has rarely made strong stand about this woman, it very difficult to deduce what her ethics would thereafter shape into. So far she has come across as a timid woman who surprisingly makes a strong stand for her own son. Even if that breaks her heart and twists a knife into her soul, she is accepting it all silently. Her unshed tears and silent cries are enough to prove the turmoil that she is going through every single day. But she isn't the strong player here who will be able to make her stand. She isn't as powerful as Charumitra or manipulative as Noor. If she is now introduced in the royal setting chances are that both she and her son would be eliminated.




Part of me thinks, that this fact is very well known to her and this exactly what prompted her to handover her son to Chanakya. Kunti had once said that a mother's ultimate mission is safeguard her children, even if that means tearing them away from a heart that finds warmth only when the child comes running up to her. Dharma too is making a very similar stand here. She may have been arm-twisted into giving Asoka to Chanakya, but the downright truth is that this is the only insurance policy that she has at the moment. Her ethics according to me are ever evolving. It meanders and take shapes according to the need of her son. Since she has no interests of her own other her son's safety she is willingly at some level surrendering herself to the course of fate.




Now coming to Asoka. Then yes, I agree with you that some people are born great, while others have greatness thrust upon them.' Asoka here belongs to the former group. At the moment he is forced into being a mere pawn in this massive political game, but the tides are rising in his favor way too fast. And before we know it he'll be the ultimate master in this game. Maybe this is exactly what Chanakya is aiming at. He has to make sure that Asoka becomes self sufficient sooner, as that would benefit the empire. But since he has no prior training, experience here shall play the greatest teacher!




So far we have seen that Asoka is a boy-man of his words. Even when he was facing death sentence he boldly kept his defense and made everyone reconsider their stand. What surprised me the most is that at a tender age such as this he has the making of a leader. When Sushim began brawl at having lost the race, Asoka had the grace to let matters go. When he was being extended the courtesy of a full medical care, he refused. That refusal had determination and not stench of attitude. What surprises me the most is his behavior towards Chanakya? Yes he is pretty irritated at this old man who has curbed all his freedom, but even that irritation carries generous wallops of sheer respect. Right from their first meeting things have pretty much remained the same. The best part about him probably would his shrouded ethics. So far it is nothing but shallow philosophies that he himself keeps dismissing every now and then, but even that is undergoing a curious sea-change. This became evident when Asoka accepted the challenge and defeated Sushim.



While all three of them have their own sets of demons to face and conquer, ultimately somewhere all their intentions would finally intersect and that'll happen for a greater good. And maybe then their stands and their action would be justified!


Hi Shivani 😊

Fantastic write-up! Loved reading it :) Esp these 3 points that you have elucidated so well:

1. Chanakya's personal turmoil though he is able to conquer it most of the time

2. Dharma's determination to secure her son's safety at any cost to herself

3. Ashoka's grudging admiration for Chanakya and his inborn leadership skills.

It's not necessary to reveal the identity of Dharma or Ashoka right now. Yet their secrecy is NOT ensuring their Ashoka's safety. In some way or the other, he is landing into trouble esp with Sushim, in spite of his identity remaining veiled. This is destiny. Ashoka has to face off Sushim to get to the throne. And this face off has already started. Charumitra too now has some fears that Ashoka may eclipse her son's chances of being the heir though she does not yet know that he stands a chance of being the next heir.

Do see this link also for some elaboration of my views: :)

RadhikaS0 thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#10

Originally posted by: ayushimehra

Congrats, First thread on this forum,

I read three posts, Abhay, Maddi & your, all are Good.

About Ansing, your Post, Remberering point is this, :"GURU, Place or Role in ANCIANT, India

Guru was the Key, of Making Good King, or Countary. Chanakya, did that, a perfect form.
, India is Famous for his Guru's. Guru's duty was, not to Teach, spritual lesson, but They have to Right, Shape disciple, whole Personailty, how they Want.?Or Lot of respect, Disciples, mind about, Their Guru.or Guru, also complete his duty, or made disciples, a nice personality.

History, is witness, who respect, guru words, They reached top level, Krishna, Rama, Arjuna, Even Ekklavaya.

who not respected, Guru words,They where reach, Durudhona, Kans, Ravna, (Ravna respects Shiva lot, But His one mistake, Shiva, went very far away from him.Ravna not listened, his guru voice.so result all we know.

Chanakya, Name also comes in Top, Guru's.list He knows Front person, How much astemena, or How That estemna should be use. He was a very sharp mind personalityHidden things in future He can catch, or how handle those things he knows. History, is witness., Chanakya, Shaped, Bharta, Varsh, (india ), After chanakya, or Ashoka, what happened, how history start to change, or India faced lot.,

But Cause of Chanakya, Gupt period was The GOLDEN period of India,👏 👏


so when chanakya, realised, which kingdom he astablished, by Chandragupta, now cause of selfcenterdness, goes to downfall situation, so he tried his best, After knowing, Ashoka is Son of Bindusara,or Knowing, Ashoka has qualties, of Handling, whole Magadh, or India, he started to work on it.

But situations was that type, if he reveals, Dharma or Ashoka identity, this time, lose happens, Both,

India or Maybee Ashoka, or Dharma life can go to danger. Chankya knows, Jestin, +Helan, Nature.

He is clear, Sussem or Charumittra,, Noor, all are power Hungery.Only Mission, My son Should sit on Throne. Capable Yes or Not. No body is worring, About Magadh, or Bhart,when person start to think, about own own childs, me me me, Then Brain minded, person have to take decesion, or stupidness, people cost everytime pays, by Brain minded. Have a fun, because they have a Brain.

(Isn't all falut is, forgetting name Nur father, who attacked Ashoka or Dharma, Cheated Bindusar,
Jestin, assteen kaa sapp, Both wives, Noor is exploiting him, Both levels, As a wife realtion with jestin
or a Mother, Her dream is her son will sit. or Helen everytime Brain washing Bindusar, So who will pay cost. Intelligent, or giving. But see difference, Once want to Save Magadh, or country, or giving, a Decent values, after that which will came,Solid Ashoka. if he not does this, India will be attacked, by enemies. or then which comes more worst.

When you have to do Big, so somesacrifice, Sure, will Happen.

If Chanakya not built, first, Chandergupta, or Not gives,Right policyies, How we get, Good india that time. or he expanded a lot of energy that time, Ashoka.

You are Right, Ashoka is living, far away from, his Mom. But he spended lot of time, childhood, with her Mom. Now time is Tree, means Ashoka Growing or he has Vast energy, Shape Giving is necessary this time.Values, also makes a Child Broad.Soliders, giving duty on Borders, their wife, or childs, Living without them, or they are giving Nation security. Mothers, Wives, childs also feel emotional, But because ques, is job, ques, is Nation, So It happened last time, or will sure happen, present, or Future.

we own send our child schools, Mother Role is imp, but she can't give, Everything to Child.or Ashoka will Get that. If ashoka spends whole life with her Mom, who knows him, cause of him his

Husband, all knows Who s Dharma.So King is Big so sacrifice also will be big, But good thing is this time, Child is front of her. she can see, indirectely.or if we have to choose, child safty, or child living, where, ques, becomes first, Child safty, or she is doing that.

Chankya what will get, Nothing, But he is doing, because Healthy Nation will be built.if he permits Both can meet, eachother, suspection eyes, will notice them, or Life will become tough or can go to danger.or Mothers habits becomes Emotional, so this time, Learning is necessary.But because, he is justful person, so he knows, He is doing, unfair as you wrote. Because, atleast reason which maybee, both are living seperated form. But its time Demands.

But thank to that time, Thoughts, who values, Guru's words, or respect a Lot,

Gurur-Brahmaa Gurur-Vissnnur-Gururdevo Maheshvarah |
Gurure[-I]va Param Brahma Tasmai Shrii-Gurave Namah ||1||

Meaning:
1.1: The Guru is Brahma, the Guru is Vishnu, the Guru Deva isMaheswara (Shiva),
1.2: The Guru is Verily the Para-Brahman (Supreme Brahman);Salutations to that Guru.


Ayushi

Well written :)

Gurus are of different types. The gurus you mentioned are very different from the type of guru Chanakya is. He can be unethical at times but the other gurus were always ethical.

Pls see this link regarding your points about sending a child to a gurukul and about Ashoka being in front of Dharma's eyes. :)

https://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?ID=4311340&PID=119627151&#p119627151

Pls see my reply to Shivani / Maddy regarding the safety of Ashoka. True his identity needs to be kept hidden but that is not keeping him safe. He is still the target of Sushim's ire.

Reply to Shivani

PS: Chanakya lived during the Maurya period, not Gupt period. That Chandragupta is different. :)
Edited by RadhikaS0 - 10 years ago

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