Why no heroine oriented commercial entertainers in BW anymore? - Page 5

Originally posted by: atominis

Oh please. Sunny Deol was one of BIGGEST stars of 1980s and 90s. And Rajinikanth was the biggest superstar down South.

It is erroneous to say Sunny and Rajini were not big stars when they did Chaalbaaz. For that matter, Dharmendra was senior to Hema Malini and more established when he did Seeta Aur Geeta.

Rajinikanth may not have succeeded much in Hindi films but he was a name big enough to be able to refuse a film if he did not like his role in it.

Sunny had already established his action hero image and could have refused to do Chaalbaaz but he did not.

Heroes were not that insecure back then. Unlike today's times when even newcomers dislike doing films where heroine has better role.

Vinod Khanna was neck to neck with Amitabh in competition in late 70s when he agreed to play Hema's husband in Meerabai despite knowing that role of husband in Meera biopic is rather small and a bit negative as his character does not like wife being too religious and being in religious activity all the time. He did not refuse to do that film fearing he would be sidelined or his image would be dented playing Meerabai's husband.

For that matter even Rajesh Khanna did not hesitate to do Kati Patang and Aradhana despite knowing heroine had author backed role. He managed to outshine his heroines anyway due to his charisma.

Sunny Deol was not the biggest star lol of 1980s, he had few hits here and there but not to the level where he was considered amongst the big lead actors, that changed with Gayal. big actors of the 80s were mithun, Anil Kapoor, BigB, Jackie shroff, Dharmendra. Rajni was big down south but not big down hindi belt to help with movies BO performance lol.

Originally posted by: Lalakhun1

that is the logic of other people not mine for actress / heroine, actors dont get such comment though

Commercial movie acting depends on what character's actors are playing, how well that character is written and the story, only difference being the movie is commercialised with songs and cinematic liberties. Damini was a commercial movie but actress Minakshi deserved a national award for her performance, Sunny deol won it for his performance which not easy character to act on. This logic that doing art films means you deserve best actor is laughable.

I said Sunny was ONE OF the biggest stars of 80s. Not 'the biggest star'. He had superhit films in 80s too be it Betaab (his debut), Tridev, Sohni Mahiwal, Krodh, Ram Avtar, Sultan etc and critically acclaimed performances like Arjun.

He was definitely bigger star than Jackie though not as big star as Anil (who he overtook only after Ghayal).

Amused to see any claim about Jackie ever being bigger than Sunny Deol at any point of time.

Rajinikanth was a superstar down South and not a nobody. He had successful stint in films like Andha Kanoon with Amitabh. His presence did make difference in markets down South. This is why he was taken in Hindi films in 80s as his inclusion meant film would manage to get some audience in South too.

Not saying Rajinikanth was a big star in Hindi cinema but he did have option to refuse films where he felt he had lesser role or heroine would overshadow him. He never needed to depend on Bollywood for work nor was he desperate to do any Hindi film at any cost. So he could have refused to do Chaalbaaz if he wanted but he did not.

Heroes of that time were not always insecure to do films where heroine had better role.

Many times heroes did do films that seemed heroine dominated at face value but ended up overshadowing everyone. Rajesh Khanna had a brief role in Andaz but his one song is the only reason why that film is still remembered or popular.

Unlike today's times when even newcomers avoid working in films where heroine has better role or leads the film and fear being shortchanged or overshadowed by heroine.

Originally posted by: Ashley.Tisdale

Didn't the growing popularity of TV cause a change?

Since TV is primarily a women-dominated and oriented medium. Almost all shows in the 2000s were based on the dilemmas of the bahu, her relation with her saas, a heartless husband and how she tries to be the "aadarsh bahu" trying to bring the family together.

Nothing much has changed since then. We still get the same old storylines in updated technology. And what's more, they do have their female demographic audience watching.

So when there's 5 days a week of women oriented content (even though its terrible), would the audience want to watch a similar concept on screen?

This is a very valid comment.

I have seen male audience fed up seeing only woman dominated content on TV on all channels in daily soaps.

Overdose of female dominated content on TV may perhaps, indeed be a reason why people are not excited any more to watch female led films even if they are commercial entertainers.

Till 2000, we did not have satellite TV at every home and all channels did not have woman led daily soaps. Serials had men, children, youth too but it changed after popularity of K soaps.

And I agree, if someone has seen Naagin or saas bahu shows or love stories or marital disputes or woman struggling to achieve her dreams etc on TV already then why would they be keen to watch similar plots in films?

There was no TV at each home and no female led soaps when Nagina or Chandni, Chaalbaaz, Seeta Aur Geeta released.

Some films like Beta, HSSH would have no takers today given how it is a typical saas bahu stepmom saga that is there in every serial.

I also think TV may have kept female audience also more keen to watch content at home than especially go out to watch films in theatre. Or wait for TV premiere of few female led films made once in a while in Bollywood.

Woman led content is still fairly limited in its scope and stories and we do not have anything like, say Wonder Woman or Charlie's Angels type films in India.

TV is saturated with mainly women as heroines, vamps, supporting cast, onlookers, bystanders in every serial.

Definitely possible that saturation of female dominated content on TV has reduced anticipation for female led films on big screen now.

Bollywood has not even attempted to make something like Arundhati which is both female led yet a commercial entertainer type film. And I pity the bad job they did with a lone film on Jhansi ki Rani.

Love stories or family dramas or even revenge sagas may not work as much as they did till 2000s thanks to TV and also 24/7 movie channels on TV where old films have re runs every day. Why'd anyone watch similar films again if they see Chandni, Seeta aur Geeta, Chaalbaaz, Khoon Bhari Maang, Nagina, Nagin on TV every other day anyway?

The female led films need to widen their scope and go beyond typical crimes against women, marital disputes or dealing with a bad divorce or break up themes.

Thanks to popularity of mythological serials on TV there is no reason for films like Jai Santoshi Ma to set BO on fire nowadays or have the craze which that film had where audience actually threw flowers at screen or took off chappals outside before entering theatre as they believed as if they were actually going for devi darshan when going to watch that film.

It is definitely plausible that TV dented prospects for women led films. Especially given how no serial is about men nowadays so men still doing same stuff in masala or action films is still not as common to see for average viewer.

Thank you for your valuable input in the discussion.

I responded on basis of 1980s only. BTW in 2021 also commercial films very much have villains and glamour. Unless you are referring to some other industry than Bollywood.

EV was released in 2012 when recent commercial hits were Ghajini, TDP, Bodyguard, Dabangg, Ready etc which very much had glamour, sex and villains/action scenes. It is not a 2021 film.

In recent times too films like Simmba and Sooryavanshi have become hits at box office and are typical commercial films.

So much for calling small budget, offbeat films with 0 glamour or known star cast comparable to commercial films. 🤣

Less known theatre actors wali films being compared to out and out commercial films. Not a single actor in English Vinglish is as big a name as Shatrughan Sinha was in Khoon Bhari Maang. And there is no glamour or skin show in EV like there was in Khoon Bhari maang or most commercial films made nowadays. It had no raunchy dialogues or sex scenes like The Dirty Picture either. I wonder how can English Vinglish be compared to typical commercial entertainers.

Originally posted by: atominis

I said Sunny was ONE OF the biggest stars of 80s. Not 'the biggest star'. He had superhit films in 80s too be it Betaab (his debut), Tridev, Sohni Mahiwal, Krodh, Ram Avtar, Sultan etc and critically acclaimed performances like Arjun.

He was definitely bigger star than Jackie though not as big star as Anil (who he overtook only after Ghayal).

Amused to see any claim about Jackie ever being bigger than Sunny Deol at any point of time.

Rajinikanth was a superstar down South and not a nobody. He had successful stint in films like Andha Kanoon with Amitabh. His presence did make difference in markets down South. This is why he was taken in Hindi films in 80s as his inclusion meant film would manage to get some audience in South too.

Not saying Rajinikanth was a big star in Hindi cinema but he did have option to refuse films where he felt he had lesser role or heroine would overshadow him. He never needed to depend on Bollywood for work nor was he desperate to do any Hindi film at any cost. So he could have refused to do Chaalbaaz if he wanted but he did not.

Heroes of that time were not always insecure to do films where heroine had better role.

Many times heroes did do films that seemed heroine dominated at face value but ended up overshadowing everyone. Rajesh Khanna had a brief role in Andaz but his one song is the only reason why that film is still remembered or popular.

Unlike today's times when even newcomers avoid working in films where heroine has better role or leads the film and fear being shortchanged or overshadowed by heroine.

Jackie shroff was quite big during 80s even won best actor award for Parinda as well as being popular with the female audience, he had big hits like heroes karma, Ram Lakhan to name a few, sunny was a star but not a big star, he was just coming up and then Gayal changed all that. If you had of said BigB or rishi kapoor playing side characters to female lead it would of made more sense. Top stars of the 80s were BigB, anil Kapoor, Mithun da, Dharamendra Jeetendra Sunny's peak years were between 1990 to 1998.

Yes CDI and Dangal are not female star led films. These are about male heroes resolving their own trauma, unfulliled dreams. Enough of feminist critique has been written on these films in last few years. You are free to read it if you wish.

Mission Mangal is also an Akshay Kumar led film. Otherwise everyone knows what is BO pull of Vidya or Taapsee now. His face is most prominent in the poster of that film. It is not a female star dominated or female led film.

It is like calling Army a male dominated film when it is actually about Sridevi gathering a bunch of men to train them and use them to take revenge for her husband's death and finish the villain.

It is about SRK and Aamir characters in CDI, Dangal and these films have NO known female actor who drew audience to theatres. Atleast Mission Mangal had Vidya and Taapsee, CDI and Dangal have not a single well known actress. How are they female led films?

A man training women and basically running the show himself is nowhere a female led or even female oriented film. No one came to watch CDI and Dangal for women in them. They came to watch those films for Aamir and SRK who are coach in it. It is not like Nagina that people came to watch mainly for Sridevi for eg.

Strange if anyone compares CDI, Dangal to Nagina or Chaalbaaz or even Raazi, TWMR.

I agree with examples on success of Raazi and TWMR.

I never said there was a 'trend' of such films. God knows how many more times I have to repeat the same point again and again in each post.

I just said light hearted, commercial entertainers with big female stars dominating the show are fewer now.

Thank you for agreeing to targeting of female led films online nowadays.

Hero Jackie Shroff's debut movie was biggest hit of 1983 interms of ROI and top 3 grossers of the year, Him and Anil made a superhit pair Sunny was a star but not a big star.

Parinda is a flop film. Critically acclaimed but flop. Jackie Shroff was not bigger than Sunny. They were at similar level till 1990. Ghayal, Tridev, Vishwatma put Sunny ahead of Jackie later and Ghatak, Jeet, Salaakhein etc took his career to another level of course, way ahead of Jackie.

Sunny was very much among biggest stars of 80s, especially from mid 80s when he clearly began to overtake older actors like Jeetu.

That said, I would not wish to argue further on stardom of male stars as topic would get deviated then.

Sunny was not dying without offers or in a desperate position to take up anything given to him when he did Chaalbaaz. He could have refused to do that film the way today even newcomers male actors avoid woman dominated films. But he did not. He was generally not insecure as an actor until he felt shortchanged in Darr by Yash Chopra and began to avoid multistarrers after that film.

I agree Jackie was popular with women though due to his looks and being a professional model before he joined films.

Originally posted by: atominis

Parinda is a flop film. Critically acclaimed but flop. Jackie Shroff was not bigger than Sunny. They were at similar level till 1990. Ghayal, Tridev, Vishwatma put Sunny ahead of Jackie later and Ghatak, Jeet, Salaakhein etc took his career to another level of course, way ahead of Jackie.

Sunny was very much among biggest stars of 80s, especially from mid 80s when he clearly began to overtake older actors like Jeetu.

That said, I would not wish to argue further on stardom of male stars as topic would get deviated then.

Sunny was not dying without offers or in a desperate position to take up anything given to him when he did Chaalbaaz. He could have refused to do that film the way today even newcomers male actors avoid woman dominated films. But he did not. He was generally not insecure as an actor until he felt shortchanged in Darr by Yash Chopra and began to avoid multistarrers after that film.

I agree Jackie was popular with women though due to his looks and being a professional model before he joined films.

Sunny was in the position to refuse and accept movies because he was son of one of the biggest superstars of bollywood dharmendra, he was probably ahead due to that but non of sunny's solo hits of 80s came close to the movie Hero, betaab doesn't compare to Hero. I didn't question sunny's superstardom just that when you claimed he was a big league star in 80s playing side role to sridevi isn't true at all. Hero was biggest hit of 1983 with bigger ROI and amongst top 3 grossers of the year. Parinda wasn't a flop it was average to semi hit success.