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hppppp

@hppppp

Inactive

Posted: 12 years ago

#21

Originally posted by: Picasso9
We all agree that Sumitra is not perfect and that she should be allowed to have fears for her family but why only excuses for her. Why is a victim expected to be perfect in her behavior as a recipient of charity. Why is Jagya expected to be perfect just because his trying to repent. If he shouts at his mum, isn't it also his mother's duty to understand where he is coming from and forgive him. Is Sumitra trying to understand her own son. She complains that no one understands her but is she trying to understand anyone or is she just blindly listening to Saanchi. Has she once tried to understand what her son wants. When Anandi tried to talk to her, she brushed her off. Isn't this quite common in some families? Everyone has their own agendas and no one really listens to each other.

Religion does not SUGGEST good morals. What would be the point. I agree with the sentiment that religion is in the business of fear. If you don't do good you won't achieve heaven or moksha. So how is that a SUGGESTION? We could call it blackmail, fear tactics, incentives, threats but surely not something as mild as SUGGESTION.

No one's expecting Ganga to be perfect as a victim, CVs made her perfectly nice, not the viewers!!...just that others cannot be ad infinitum held responsible for thinking about her at ALL times of their lives.They CAN blank out their minds atleast occasionally when they are traumatized themselves.

If in those pressing times, Ganga chooses to do something like walking out right in the middle of night---as a victim it is perfectly justified--but then she might end up losing her life, her OWN life--and the only reason she should be concerned about it more than anyone else sould be concerned about it...is because it's her life not theirs. So yes...she is a victim...but that's her misfortune---and others can help her overcome it...but only she has to deal with it on emotional terms. Frankly speaking, Ganga can expect help, but not guarantee of help at ALL times from ALL people...there are times when she will have to help herself(help herself as in...just deciding that morning is a better time to leave, not midnight!)---no matter how worn out and tired, and beaten she is.

As far as Jagya's/Anandi's/xyz shouting and treating Sumitra like pariah...here's news--Sumitra doesn't owe a thing to any of them, and they cannot shout at her at their own sweet will. They Sumitra's prerogative who she wants to live with...but it's not their prerogative to shout at her for those choices that are hers. Besides she also happens to be a loving mother to them. If Jagya is concerned about Ganga way more than Sumitra is...he has to deal with that on his own level---which he actually is doing now. However, the way he is treating Sumitra as if Ganga was Sumitra's responsibility--like Sumitra should have kept Ganga's interests at the center of her life...is rather lame in my opinion. Sumitra was giving a shelter to Ganga...and it's her call if she thinks she cannot continue to do so any more. She has not adopted Ganga yet.

I have a liberal opinion of religion.. That's my view of religion and you are entitled to have yours. my point is...other cannot impose their religious/moralistic views on me...and I cannot do it to them.

The discussion is going endless...and I think I am repeating my own points...I have nothing extra to say, and do not want to repeat or rephrase what I have already said...so ending the discussion from my side.

Edited by hima_123 - 12 years ago

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Picasso9

@Picasso9

Dazzler

Posted: 12 years ago

#22

Yes Ganga made the choice (her choice) to leave in the middle of the night. Knowing her frame of mind, they let her leave. If someone is suicidal, is it ok to let them kill themselves because it is their own life?

Sumi has a lot of prerogatives to do or not do, as she wishes but she needs to voice it. She led her son to believe that she was ok with helping Ganga. Not once did she speak to him about her 'change of mind'. Not once. She put on a show as if she had Ganga's best interest at heart in front of her son. She's his mother so obviously he would take her at face value and believe that she is a good person. Hence the disappointment in his mother.

Of course, religion is very personal. Which is why I didn't accept the sweeping comment that everything pertaining to higher morals in our scriptures are mere SUGGESTIONS.

Edited by Picasso9 - 12 years ago

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hppppp

@hppppp

Inactive

Posted: 12 years ago

#23

Originally posted by: Picasso9
Yes Ganga made the choice (her choice) to leave in the middle of the night. Knowing her frame of mind, they let her leave. If someone is suicidal, is it ok to let them kill themselves because it is their own life?

Sumi has a lot of prerogatives to do or not do, as she wishes but she needs to voice it. She led her son to believe that she was ok with helping Ganga. Not once did she speak to him about her 'change of mind'. Not once. She put on a show as if she had Ganga's best interest at heart in front of her son. She's his mother so obviously he would take her at face value and believe that she is a good person. Hence the disappointment in his mother.

Of course, religion is very personal. Which is why I didn't accept the sweeping comment that everything pertaining to higher morals in our scriptures are mere SUGGESTIONS.

I am sticking to the points that I have made earlier. Even if someone's tendency is suicidal...neighbors/friends/outsiders can't make it the center of their life ALL the time. I have nothing more to add; neither do I wish to defend Sumitra on everything she has done in her past. Where I agree with her, and on what counts Jagya wasn't supposed to yell at her in my opinion...I have put it clearly...won't go on repeating it.

As far as my comment on religion was concerned...I have a view that my religion is flexible and offers uncountable choices how I would like to conduct my life. Also I believe that God has no personal grudge against any soul or person. To me it's as simple as ---as you sow, so shall you reap. I refer to all this for guidelines...or suggestions...I have never followed religion like something I am fearful of. Yes...this is my opinion...and the way I see my religion. I have no wish to interfere in others view of how they see the concept of religion.

Edited by hima_123 - 12 years ago

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Sweta

@BeyondTheSky

Dazzler

Posted: 12 years ago

#24

what i like the most about jagya is he is a very believable character...when he is upset..he shows it on his family members...on the other hand he is trying to change himself...trying to make his family happy...also trying to make a difference in ganga's life...he has found a solid purpose with ganga's case..thats a good start.
i would say every person is a little selfish...its very difficult if not impossible to find people like shiv or shyam !

i am liking this jagya...and want his personality to have these mixed shades...shashank doing a fantastic job as jagya 👏

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Picasso9

@Picasso9

Dazzler

Posted: 12 years ago

#25

Originally posted by: hima_123

I am sticking to the points that I have made earlier. Even if someone's tendency is suicidal...neighbors/friends/outsiders can't make it the center of their life ALL the time. I have nothing more to add; neither do I wish to defend Sumitra on everything she has done in her past. Where I agree with her, and on what counts Jagya wasn't supposed to yell at her in my opinion...I have put it clearly...won't go on repeating it.

As far as my comment on religion was concerned...I have a view that my religion is flexible and offers uncountable choices how I would like to conduct my life. Also I believe that God has no personal grudge against any soul or person. To me it's as simple as ---as you sow, so shall you reap. I refer to all this for guidelines...or suggestions...I have never followed religion like something I am fearful of. Yes...this is my opinion...and the way I see my religion. I have no wish to interfere in others view of how they see the concept of religion.

Hima, of course it's your right to stick to your points and views. By the same token I am also offering my views. Neither are yours nor mine the right or wrong way EXCLUSIVELY. Everyone has their own frames of references and everyone will filter their views through their own experiences and outlook. I started this topic and felt a responsibility to respond more if I disagreed with a post or just like a post without the need to expand. If it's becoming tiresome to discuss on your part then let's just agree to disagree. 😊

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sush_

@sush_

Sparkler

+ 2

Posted: 12 years ago

#26

picaso awesome post..
Jagya has become one of the reason why some ppl watching BV these days..
His track of redemption is very much convincing..
I am loved the way how his ckt has shapened up from angry young man to sensible angry young man 😉
Good going cv's cntu just the way it is. but show him atleast when his named is mentioned in the epi.. pls 😆
No where jagya insulted sumi..
he was much more disappointed by the way his family let go Ganga n mannu at late night..
he din't expect this from his loving n caring momma, who always stood up for right against her own son at times.. so his reaction is quite normal.
😊

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koolsadhu1000

@koolsadhu1000

Stunner

+ 3

Posted: 12 years ago

#27

This is how i see it

Son wants to help an abused woman and her little child , so many mistakes has he done in life and been burnt out by those experiences that he has become sadder and wiser .

Wearing trendy jackets , buttering attractive fiancees , saying 'I love yous' , partying , being elated at the prospect of getting virgins as brides from well settled families doesn't mean a thing to him now .

The mother , though herself from a poor family , has become a snob as time passes by . She wants a virgin from a well settled family although the son is divorced . She was turning up noses at divorcee girls till son pointed out that it was not his first marraige too.

The mother has other opinions on helping abused women too . Not at the cost of endangering ur own family , is her thought . We really owe nothing to her , a total outsider.

Now this is a personal difference of opinions in thoughts and principles between mother and son.

She should tell the son that it is extremely unfair of him to endanger so many people for one abused woman . Does she do that ?

No . She knows , he will say ok , and move to the hospital quarters .

She does not want to lose him .

And she wants him to live life her way too .

So she goes behind his back and tackles the root of the problem . She starts icy behaviour with the abused woman to whom she was nice hitherto . She tries to send a message ...you are unwelcome . Go .

In front of the son , she is diplomatic .

Then comes the human crisis situation in which all of them r saved in the nick of time from being burnt alive .

Openly vocal now , she insists that the woman should go and that humanity is for a selected few , like Anandi or Suguna , she really owes outsiders NOTHING.

Son is shocked . He disagrees . He feels this thinking is narrow minded , ruthless and snobbish .

She thinks his thinking is naive .

The dfference is in the two thought processes .

Where the mother is wrong is in thinking the son is naive and needs to be controlled and led to a better life that she deems as a life .

The son is a grown man . A divorcee . He has had his own life experience . He doesn't want what the mother wants for him as 'sukh' .

A smile on the face of a needy child like Mannu matters more to him than romancing or dressing up for his virgin well settled fiancee .

If he is criticized as wrong by some for dismissing his mother's views which r perfectly natural , so is the mother wrong for taking him for granted and forcing her thoughts on him in that roundabout , diplomatic , almost foxy way.

While the son has no wish to enforce his thoughts on the mother and would move out if the issue was thrashed beforehand with him , the mother wants to force her thoughts on him and unwilling to thrash out directly with him and play games to get him to do what SHE wants .

Right or wrong is a different issue , the fact that she wants to enforce HER thoughts is a fact .

I don't think this issue has anything to do with religion at all . It has to do with humanity . How much to accord that value , to whom should it be accorded , should the exercise govern your private life , what is right or wrong in a human crisis situation . Religion is merely a way of life. This issue can bother atheists too.

The son thinks differently . He will be ready to move out if the mother stifles his principles.

The mother however is torn between personal emotions [ love for her son] , a practical thought process that borders on ruthlessness [ i don't owe anything to that outsider] and mistaken self righteousness [ i am doing this all for HIM and the family after all .Wrong . She is doing it for HERSELF , her soch .]

If yelling at Sumitra is wrong , so is the force on Jagya .

Edited by koolsadhu1000 - 12 years ago

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SPuja

@SPuja

Rocker

Posted: 12 years ago

#28

Well difference of opinion is OK.

This is how I see it.

Son wants to help an abused woman and little child. The family (including his mother) also want to help her. They gave her shelter, treated her as family member, they are taking care of all her expenses including studies, she goes out on bike with the son, the son and the abused woman go to each-other's room even during night, the abused woman interferes in family matters, the matriarch of family thinks the abused woman as family and asks her opinion about matter of importance.

The mother does not likes the abused woman and her son's growing closeness, irrespective of the fact that her son does shows any intention that he actually loves the woman, it is just that he wants to help her. The son was attacked mortally when he took the abused woman (they went alone, not even her son accompanied them) to a temple because she was feeling low because she could not write some two marks question in exam. The assailants, did not attack the woman, she took the son to hospital and timely help saved the son's life. Police told that the attackers were sent by the abused woman's husband. The son's fiancee kan bharo the mother. The mother shows resentment towards abused woman, the son is unaware of all this. The mother discussed this with her father and suggested that there is risk of further attack and they should send the woman to some ashram. Her suggestion and fears were brushed aside. No action was taken for security.

The woman's husband attacked the family (it was just a miracle that nobody was harmed, whereas the attack was so savage that at least three members of the family should have hospitalised or even dead), all this while the abused woman was hiding in trunk because the matriarch had asked her so. When the attacker was about to burn them alive the mother, she lost her patient and asked the attacker if she gives the woman and son to him, will he leave the family?

The woman finally came when the son of family was being attacked. She agreed to give her son to her husband if he leaves the family. She gave her son to his father and still she was bound and whole haveli was about to set on fire, when the police came and the attacker arrested.

The son, who got ht on head was bleeding profusely and was faint, but after the police left, he was alright and went to police station with the father. The mother told the matriarch that her fears came true. At that time the abused woman came and wanted to go out, the matriarch wanted to give her money, but she refused. The mother did not stop her. When the son came, he asked for the woman and was agitated when he learned that she left in the middle of night. He was angry that the family did not stop her, would they do the same thing with their daughters? The mother said the woman was not their daughter, she was not family. The son shouted at her and went to search the woman. The family including mother's husband are now showing cold behaviour towards the mother like she sent the woman out at night.

In this scenario, the question is whether the mother was wrong and whether the son insulted her by shouting at her. As per my opinion, the mother was not wrong because nobody can see their family members die a horrible death (by burning alive) for a woman, whom they (they know she was abused by her husband) gave shelter. The son, who was shouting at her mother, should have been in hospital (perhaps in ICU, seeing the way he was attacked), but since this is serial, and they wanted to make the mother appear as antagonist to the abused woman, nobody was hospitalised and the son did not even need bandages. So, if someone shouts at his mother, when her only fault was that she did not stop the woman (whom her son was helping) going out in night because she thought that the woman was not her family and her family was attacked because of the woman. The mother was not wrong here, therefore, I think the son insulted the mother. (By the way, nobody - Bhairo/Basant/Jagya shouted at DS when she was mean with her beendnies).

The scenario look bad also because the viewers know that the abused woman is actually in love and going to marry the son in future. And even before this shouting several forum members were saying they will be happy if Jagya, DS and Bhairo blast Sumitra.

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Picasso9

@Picasso9

Dazzler

Posted: 12 years ago

#29

Originally posted by: SPuja
Well difference of opinion is OK.

This is how I see it.
Son wants to help an abused woman and little child. The family (including his mother) also want to help her. They gave her shelter, treated her as family member, they are taking care of all her expenses including studies, she goes out on bike with the son, the son and the abused woman go to each-other's room even during night, the abused woman interferes in family matters, the matriarch of family thinks the abused woman as family and asks her opinion about matter of importance.

The mother does not likes the abused woman and her son's growing closeness, irrespective of the fact that her son does shows any intention that he actually loves the woman, it is just that he wants to help her. The son was attacked mortally when he took the abused woman (they went alone, not even her son accompanied them) to a temple because she was feeling low because she could not write some two marks question in exam. The assailants, did not attack the woman, she took the son to hospital and timely help saved the son's life. Police told that the attackers were sent by the abused woman's husband. The son's fiancee kan bharo the mother. The mother shows resentment towards abused woman, the son is unaware of all this. The mother discussed this with her father and suggested that there is risk of further attack and they should send the woman to some ashram. Her suggestion and fears were brushed aside. No action was taken for security.

The woman's husband attacked the family (it was just a miracle that nobody was harmed, whereas the attack was so savage that at least three members of the family should have hospitalised or even dead), all this while the abused woman was hiding in trunk because the matriarch had asked her so. When the attacker was about to burn them alive the mother, she lost her patient and asked the attacker if she gives the woman and son to him, will he leave the family?

The woman finally came when the son of family was being attacked. She agreed to give her son to her husband if he leaves the family. She gave her son to his father and still she was bound and whole haveli was about to set on fire, when the police came and the attacker arrested.

The son, who got ht on head was bleeding profusely and was faint, but after the police left, he was alright and went to police station with the father. The mother told the matriarch that her fears came true. At that time the abused woman came and wanted to go out, the matriarch wanted to give her money, but she refused. The mother did not stop her. When the son came, he asked for the woman and was agitated when he learned that she left in the middle of night. He was angry that the family did not stop her, would they do the same thing with their daughters? The mother said the woman was not their daughter, she was not family. The son shouted at her and went to search the woman. The family including mother's husband are now showing cold behaviour towards the mother like she sent the woman out at night.

In this scenario, the question is whether the mother was wrong and whether the son insulted her by shouting at her. As per my opinion, the mother was not wrong because nobody can see their family members die a horrible death (by burning alive) for a woman, whom they (they know she was abused by her husband) gave shelter. The son, who was shouting at her mother, should have been in hospital (perhaps in ICU, seeing the way he was attacked), but since this is serial, and they wanted to make the mother appear as antagonist to the abused woman, nobody was hospitalised and the son did not even need bandages. So, if someone shouts at his mother, when her only fault was that she did not stop the woman (whom her son was helping) going out in night because she thought that the woman was not her family and her family was attacked because of the woman. The mother was not wrong here, therefore, I think the son insulted the mother. (By the way, nobody - Bhairo/Basant/Jagya shouted at DS when she was mean with her beendnies).

The scenario look bad also because the viewers know that the abused woman is actually in love and going to marry the son in future. And even before this shouting several forum members were saying they will be happy if Jagya, DS and Bhairo blast Sumitra.

You left a major part out of your summary of what transpired. Or maybe you selectively omitted it out of your viewpoint.

The major part being the mother's duplicity and cowardly bullying of the abused woman. This, the father and the son know nothing of. Furthermore, when the mother discussed her fears with her husband, she told him only half the story. She was not completely honest. What was she afraid of? If she was so confident that she was doing nothing wrong why was there no full disclosure (her issues with Jagya and Ganga's growing closeness).

IF in the past neither Bhairon, Basant or Jagya shouted at DS when she was mean to her beendnies it doesn't make it right. Isn't Jagya changing? So shouldn't his reactions change too. Basant has realized his past mistakes and is actively trying to do right by his wife now. Actually in the past Bhairon always questioned and argued his mother when she was being unjust with Anandi.

The scenario did not look bad to me (also a viewer) even though I know all indications lean towards a Jagya/Ganga pairing. Picture abhi baaki hain so why jump to conclusions. What if Gauri turns up and Ganga does the Mahaan act of sacrificing her feelings. Jagya still has not shown any such feelings

towards her so why to assume.

You are entitled to thinking that Sumitra was correct, her behavior was exemplary. That's your prerogative. I disagree.

At the end of the day, Sumitra had a choice to decline helping Ganga. A choice she did not exercise. Her silence was taken as compliance in her family. If she changed her mind she should have vocalized it properly without nakhras and 'I told you so's'. Jagya is her young son who is striving to be a better person, a better citizen. He has the idealism prevalent very much in youth. He has also seen his parents' consistent and patient support of Anandi during her crisis and also during her samaj seva, so it was safe for him to assume that he would also be afforded that same support now that he is back in the family fold. If Sumitra was still adamant about her rights within the house to not 'do good' for practical reasons then she should have been honest with Jagya so that he on turn could exercise HIS rights, by deciding to persevere or not. He could have chosen to move out in order to still help Ganga and not violate Sumitra's rights. But Sumitra did not even recognize his right either nor did she offer him a choice by just being honest in the first place. Her duplicity has landed her at the brunt end of all the criticism.

Edited by Picasso9 - 12 years ago

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koolsadhu1000

@koolsadhu1000

Stunner

+ 3

Posted: 12 years ago

#30

My point is this

Whatever the reasons ...inability to see her own son being assaulted , her family facing the possibility of being burnt alive...she should have put her foot down and thrashed it out with her son . It is a point of view . A serious thought .

She did not . Why ?

Knowledge that the son wouldn't listen .

Jagya has his own mind . Nobody can control it . Jagya defied Sumitra once . Jagya has the capability to defy her again . Sumitra is scared of that capability .

If she had told him that she cannot bear as a mother to see him assaulted thus

that it was unfair to put many people in danger for one

he would have heard her out , respected her viewpoint , seen an element of truth in it and ultimately decided that since he cannot give up his voluntary responsibility at this stage , he would move out so she would be spared from all those fears on a daily basis .

The thrashing out should ideally have been in a family meeting , before the human crisis situation .

She kept quiet and played games till then and suddenly all was revealed to him .

Look at what Sumitra has done .

She claims she loves the family and is doing it for their safety but she did not thrash it out with her son before the horrific event occured ...she could have averted it if the son had moved out with Ganga . Ratan Singh was keeping tabs on Ganga's whereabouts .

She is forcing her thoughts all the time on her son , he is not saying she HAS to follow his thoughts , he would have moved out .

The family she claims she is protecting is NOT with her on this . They have other thoughts . So , who is she protecting ?

In making Jagya accept Saanchi's proposal , she was the main culprit . She told him THINK of Anandi's happiness before u make a decision . Why should her son make the decision of his life based on Anandis happiness ? Shouldn't he make a decision on the basis of whether its right or wrong for him ? Anandi is happy , she met the prince charming of her life . Does not he deserve to be happy now ? Where was the mother who looked out for her son in Sumitra now ? Was she looking out for Anandi more or was she projecting this to realise her ambitions ...getting the strong headed son to agree to HER wish of getting a virgin bahu from a well settled family by making arguments that would silence him ?

If the prospect of Anandi's marital happiness was going to be a constant pressure on her son , why was Sumitra so elated about accepting this proposal ? Did she want this pressure to constantly govern her son's life and make him unhappy by becoming a puppet as the Shekhar's son in law and Saanchi's husband ? If Saanchi and Jagya had a marital fight did Jagya have to bend eack time for Anandi's sake and was Sumitra going to push him in that kind of life where he lost his freedom , became a puppet and was under constant pressure after just getting out of a bad marraige ?

Where was 'the mother' when she gave someone else more importance than her son and cleverly took away her son's choice at independence and a pressure free life ?

Where was 'the mother' when she avoided thrashing out with her son and instead played games to enforce her decision on him ?

As i see it , she ENFORCES decisions on him by playing games or manipulating conversations always be it accepting the proposal or helping an abused woman , its HER thoughts that count to her not HIS .

Actually everything was going her way . Son had agreed to abide by HER wishes in the marraige , Saachi was HER choice , not his . But she became more and more controlling and crossed her limits when she tried to force her principles on him . He has started rebelling . When it becomes a clash of principles , the chasm between a difference of opinion widens . What Sumitra wants is the son to eat well , live a life of luxury and find joy in being the Shekhar puppet always keeping Anandi's happiness in mind and give up his rather naive principles and all those stupid thoughts of helping abused women etc . This is the BEST life for him and she will decide it , not him , he doesn't know anything . She and Saanchi have teamed up coz both in their own way want to control Jagya .

Edited by koolsadhu1000 - 12 years ago

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