Karna and Duryodhan's Friendship - Page 3

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

Acha i misunderstood galti se mistake ho gayi 😆

Exactly karna is even purer than the milk or Ganga s water he is just an innocent guy he was manipulated by evil duryodhan n duniya ke saare atyachaae isse pe hue hai. Even his biological daddy helped his arch enemy. #Justforeldest #Whythiskolaveridiwitheldest 😭😭

Someone told me a day back that Karna killed Abhimanyu because he could not see him suffer 🤣

First of all he got defeated by him, and was NOT the one to kill him. And he was equally a part of the plan. 🤣

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

Though on a serious note i do believe duryodhan s friendship was far more genuine than Karna s

I agree with this POV.

Firstly, Karna had a clear dislike for most high borns (accepting his subcaste was not as highly put in societal pedestal as YBANS+Kauravs were). Hence, why would he go with Duryodhan? I am sure, had Yudhishthir been the one to offer him Ang Rajya, he would have shown off saying he doesn't take daan, but gives daan as daanveer. . (I gave TV serial producers a good dialogue.) So how did he accept Duryodhan? Probably because he knew Duryodhan hated Pandavas, particularly Arjun. Also, Karna's character has a constant clear need of validation ie recognition. He knew, Duryodhan could face Bheem and had the means, Yudhishthir's best weapon was his brain, NS can be defeated. What about Arjun, who was considered the most valient of the five. Duryodhan would give him the chance to do that, so he could prove himself superior to Arjun and also be of help to Duryodhan. So a friendship with Duryodhan would clearly give him both of what he wanted.

Secondly, as many pointed out, unless Duryodhan was delusional, Karna was no match for Arjun at least as per accepted versions no matter what the reason is. There was no reason to consider him one either and I believe Duryodhan was not an idiot, hence he surely knew whom to trust. Yet he supported him. But I do feel in the beginning he supported Karn because Karna harboured equal and similar hateful feelings for those whom he disliked. But then, he continued to support him and this I consider kindness keeping in mind Suta is still an inferior caste (though I don't completely accept this) and also, Karna was not of much use via brains or strength.

Last, Karna I still am convinced chose his OWN intention above what was needed in war. That is killing Arjun and not Yudhishthir first. Killing Arjun would mean the worst loss for Pandavas, but not what could seal the fate. Yudhishthir and Bheem would still be here. It would not take him much to not choose to do this. With this, he did break loyalty and trust. But I do give it to him that he didn't do it probably with complete wrong intentions but because of what he knew of his birth. Duryodhan I feel would have never done this in his place.

So I think Duryodhan was a better friend than Karna in this case.

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

I always felt that this friendship was because of benefit in the side of Duryodhan too. Karna too had some benefit here but Duryodhan was the one who made him his friend so I point finger at him first.

But I think there are many reasons to think Karn and Duryodhan were genuinely friends and this was more than a mutually beneficial bond.

What do you all think?

(I am personally biased because I dislike both, so thought of trying to look at it from a neutral viewpoint) 😆

I did think that Karna was genuinely friendly w/ Dury, but once Krishna revealed to him that he was Kunti's son, Karna's sentiments shifted, even if he remained loyal to Dury.

Also, if Karna was really supportive of Dury, he would have allowed his identity to become known to the Pandavas, and then after getting the rights to Indraprastha and everything, he'd have turned it over to Dury. But he didn't, and explicitly asked Krishna to keep it under wraps while he was alive, so that he wouldn't be compelled to do that.

That is the greatest thing about Karna: if he wanted, he could have taken advantage of Krishna's offer and sabotaged the Pandava desire for revenge, and even piqued Dury to the throne. But he didn't, and that's why Yudi ended up on the throne

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

I did think that Karna was genuinely friendly w/ Dury, but once Krishna revealed to him that he was Kunti's son, Karna's sentiments shifted, even if he remained loyal to Dury.

Also, if Karna was really supportive of Dury, he would have allowed his identity to become known to the Pandavas, and then after getting the rights to Indraprastha and everything, he'd have turned it over to Dury. But he didn't, and explicitly asked Krishna to keep it under wraps while he was alive, so that he wouldn't be compelled to do that.

That is the greatest thing about Karna: if he wanted, he could have taken advantage of Krishna's offer and sabotaged the Pandava desire for revenge, and even piqued Dury to the throne. But he didn't, and that's why Yudi ended up on the throne

Provide krishna actually wanted to offer anything to him which he didn't. This is the same krishna who promised drapaudi that he would make sure that all her tormentor are dead and this included karna. All he was doing was to manipulate him to weaken his resolve. Had krishna really wanted karna to have the throne instead of going to karna he would have revealed everything first to yudhishtra and then to duryodhan forget yudhishtra even duryodhan would have happily left his claim because he genuinely loved his best friend. If krishna really wanted to offer anything to him the peace treaty would have included this clause give everything to karna and settle it out peacefully. But he did he do that. Plus we should not forget the promise that sakha gave or the oath that he took to punish his sakhi s tormentor. That offer was nothing but a very smart political move to weaken karna so that his hand shook when he battle with any of the pandavas subsequent doses was given by kunti and then krishna himself again so in case karna would have accepted the offer Krishna would have found another method to kill him off.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

My point is following Bheeshm's order was not a must especially when you haven't done that all your life. Yes you can attribute different reasons for it.

If we go by that logic then no relation in the world can be said to be genuine. No one can take a dip into the minds of others to deduce the truth.

We believe that Draupadi and Krishna had great friendship because of the instances we are told in the epic. One might argue that Draupadi liked Krishna so much because she knew that he was a great politician and without his support her remaining the chief wife of all the Pandavas was impossible especially she was a shared one and others were exclusively theirs. How on the earth can anyone say that this wasn't the case. But here we don't think so because we love both of them both as individuals and also as a pair of friends. But when it comes to Duryodhan Karna and their friendship defined in the epic, our perspective changes just because we dislike both.

It's just a bias that we want to believe in

Anyhow about your points,

Duryodhan might have thought that he would get Karna into the war after Bheeshm's death but why even wait till then?

I can't buy the theory that he didn't believe in Bheeshm being in his support with full commitment, because not even a fool will make the mistake of making a subtle supporter of the enemies his Senapati however efficient he might be

‘Bhishma replied, “O mighty-armed one! O descendant of the Bharata lineage! It is exactly as you say. However, you and the Pandavas are equal before me. O lord of men! I must speak about their welfare also. However, because I have pledged to do so, I must fight in your cause. I do not see any other warrior on earth who is my equal, with the exception of that tiger among men, Kunti’s son, Dhananjaya. He is mighty-armed. He knows all the divine weapons. However, Pandava will never fight me openly in the war. In an instant, through the strength of my weapons, I can make this entire universe destitute of men, gods, asuras and rakshasas. O lord of men! But Pandu’s sons cannot be slain by me. Therefore, I will always slay ten thousand warriors every day. O descendant of the Kuru lineage! Unless they kill me first in an encounter, in this way, I will bring about their downfall. O king! There is one condition under which I will willingly become your general, not otherwise. You should hear about this. O lord of the earth! Let Karna or me fight first. This son of a suta always seeks to rival me in battle.”

Bibek Debroy. The Mahabharata.

Section Fifty-Seven

Bhishma-Abhishechana Parva

^ Bhishma actually made it clear that he won't kill the Pandavas because he seeks their welfare too.

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

I did think that Karna was genuinely friendly w/ Dury, but once Krishna revealed to him that he was Kunti's son, Karna's sentiments shifted, even if he remained loyal to Dury.

Also, if Karna was really supportive of Dury, he would have allowed his identity to become known to the Pandavas, and then after getting the rights to Indraprastha and everything, he'd have turned it over to Dury. But he didn't, and explicitly asked Krishna to keep it under wraps while he was alive, so that he wouldn't be compelled to do that.

That is the greatest thing about Karna: if he wanted, he could have taken advantage of Krishna's offer and sabotaged the Pandava desire for revenge, and even piqued Dury to the throne. But he didn't, and that's why Yudi ended up on the throne

As per KMG, however, when Krishna went to speak to Karna, he mentions that he already knew (I am however unable to understand HOW unless he just anticipated or guessed) about his birth history. If this is the case, should not he have acted much earlier?

Besides, I feel he was not so hungry for the throne or kingdom as he was to prove his position or validation. This I would give him, because from what we know of him, he chose his own validation, his wish to prove himself superior to Arjun greater than anything else, including kingdom and wealth. Hence he never did what you stated.

Neverthless, that really doesn't add points to him as a friend 😆

I don't think friendship is anything an external person can judge objectively.

Going by the things mentioned in the epic, I do feel they were close friends.

Rest no one can be sure

When some kind of glory is attached to Karna for refusing Krishna's offer, we're assuming:

1. Krishna's offer was genuine when Pandavas didn't authorize him to offer the empire to anyone else. Moreover, he offers Panchali, a woman on whom he had no authority (I use the term because of the times) - she was neither his sister, nor his daughter, nor his wife. If any of us offered a neighbor's wife to a 3rd man...😆 You get the gist. Moreover, according to Vedic rules, a younger brother's wife was akin to daughter which is why it is stated specifically Yudhishtira married first. Then, there is the promise Krishna made to Panchali to see Karna dead. There is also the instance where Krishna tells Arjuna it is perfectly all right to lie to an enemy.

2. Glory assigned to Karna means he didn't actually understand Krishna's shrewdness and ability to manipulate. For all his faults, Karna was an intelligent man.

3. Glory assigned to Karna means he assumed if he actually agreed to switch, Krishna would've actually let him live long enough to take the throne and not end up like Shishupala.

______

Back to the topic, I think perhaps the friendship started out of mutual necessity, but it gives off genuine vibes.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

When some kind of glory is attached to Karna for refusing Krishna's offer, we're assuming.

1. Krishna's offer was genuine when Pandavas didn't authorize him to offer the empire to anyone else. Moreover, he offers Panchali, a woman on whom he had no authority (I use the term because of the times) - she was neither his sister, nor his daughter nor his wife. If any of us offered a neighbor's wife to a 3rd man...😆 You get the gist. Moreover, according to Vedic rules, a younger brother's wife was akin to daughter which is why it is stated specifically Yudhishtira married first. Then, there is the promise Krishna made to Panchali to see Karna dead. There is also the instance where Krishna tells Arjuna it is perfectly all right to lie to an enemy.

2. Glory assigned to Karna means he didn't actually understand Krishna's shrewdness and ability to manipulate. For all his faults, Karna was an intelligent man.

3. Glory assigned to Karna means he didn't understand if he actually agreed to switch, Krishna would've actually let him live long enough to take the throne and not end up like Shishupala.

______

Back to the topic, I think perhaps the friendship started out of mutual necessity, but it gives off genuine vibes.

I don't think he knew about the vow to get Karna die by Krishna.

Hence even if he was Intelligent enough to understand that Krishna's offer was just a hoax and he would have no claim on either Draupadi (he would have been way too stupid to believe this) or on the throne, he would have still understood that he would have been a respected citizen after the Pandavas win.

On any day the elder brother of king is more important than the friend of the king (assuming Kauravas won the war). Plus knowing Yudhishtir he would have Definitely given some important position to Karna after having learnt the truth. So yes he did a trade a more important position for his friendship

Second part I am of the exactly same opinion. Theirs was mutually beneficial relation turned into a genuine feeling love and respect for each other

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

I don't think he knew about the vow to get Karna die by Krishna.

Hence even if he was Intelligent enough to understand that Krishna's offer was just a hoax and he would have no claim on either Draupadi (he would have been way too stupid to believe this) or on the throne, he would have still understood that he would have been a respected citizen after the Pandavas win.

On any day the elder brother of king is more important than the friend of the king (assuming Kauravas won the war). Plus knowing Yudhishtir he would have Definitely given some important position to Karna after having learnt the truth. So yes he did a trade a more important position for his friendship

Second part I am of the exactly same opinion. Theirs was mutually beneficial relation turned into a genuine feeling love and respect for each other

Perhaps Karna didn't know about the vow to kill. But he surely knew the offer was fake when Panchali's name was mentioned. He most certainly saw what happened to Shishupala.

I think Karna realized it.

So I won't assign any glory to him for the refusal when Krishna took pains to make it clear the offer was fake.

Thing is, I kind of feel Karna would've stuck with his friend even if the offer were genuine. No citations to offer as evidence, just the vibe I get from the text.