let's discuss the biggest epic ever: MAHABHARAT - Page 5

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-Aarya- thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#41

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

I think the message of Krishna is quite simple: if ever you encounter murderers, molesters, cheats, power mongers, human rights abusers, thugs, and, in general, people predisposed to committing evil acts (characters such as Duryodhan, Dushasan, Shakuni, Jayadrath etc) , even if they are related to you, even if they are backed by powerful friends who are passive/active supporters of their misdeeds (characters such as Karna), even if the elders in your own family decide to play dumb and deaf as mute spectators (characters such as Bheeshma, Dhritarashtra), even if these bad elements are backed by people whom you revere (characters like Drona and Kripa), even if all these people outnumber you 100 to 1, you stick to what is right, stand your ground, fight them and decimate them by hook or by crook.

You can assume that in principle The Lord is with you if you have done mostly right in your life, but you have to also understand that He is not going to fight your battles for you (unless a divine interference is called for :)



The two words which drive the fate of Mahabaharat...Free Will. Kauravas and Pandvas, both had choices to change their fate/destiny, and yet they decided on war! This is a clear example of with rights comes responsibility...

I always wondered what did Mahabaharat teach us today, how has it changed the lives of mankind, did we really need Krishna, BhagavatGeeta, etc...


Edited by -Aarya- - 9 years ago
Rehanism thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#42
This is something I wrote about Duryodhan's character in another forum :

"Certain aspects of Duryodhan's hatred towards Pandavas were understandable from the POV of ancient kingdoms and politics. Mortal rivalry among siblings and cousins was the most common thing to the point where queens employed maids and eunuchs to poison and abort the children of the rival queens to ensure a clean way for themselves and their kids. The great Ashoka born to a lesser queen murdered each one of his siblings and step-brothers and their children before ascending the throne of Magadh.

In such an age there's a kid whose father has been denied the kingdom for his physical handicap and his uncle Pandu, the king, dies in a forest under mysterious conditions. His other uncle, Vidur, forced his father to stand down the throne and wanted him killed as an infant because of the supposed bad omens. He has no good reason to trust his family elders. Everyone knew Pandu was impotent but one day his wife turns up with 5 kids who are now deemed as the heirs with Duryodhan himself being pushed to the same oblivion his father was, second fiddle to those who for all he knew were not his brothers at all (How many would buy Kunti's story of Pandavas being the magically procured children of gods?). What if it was a ploy by Vidur and Bhishma to take over the kingdom by installing a puppet ruler? Its not unheard of that priests and ministers often overthrew kings and installed a puppet king in their place who would do their bidding. His parents are blind and must depend on external support for daily chores as well as the running of the state affairs. His elders and teachers favour the pandavas. He has no real mentor to turn to. But he won't swallow the insults the way his blind father did. He is determined to fight and take back what he believes to be his by hook or by crook. And the only person who he can trust and connect with more than any of his family is Karna, a man who shares similar dark past and hunger to find his rightful place in the world. And with Karna and Shakuni, he takes back control of the kingdom from Vidur and Bhishma, who in times of Dhritarashtra were the de facto rulers.

Also it must be noted, contrary to what ⭐️bharat shows, Duryodhan was never a tyrant or exploiter. His venom was directed solely against the Pandavas and hardly against anyone else. When he was struck down unfairly by Bhim and Balram declared him as a nobler warrior than the Pandavas and blessed him with eternal bliss in heaven, the gods showered flowers on him (sorry, ⭐️Bhishma). Following which Krishna and Pandavas withdrew from the place with their heads hung in shame.
"
LeadNitrate thumbnail
Posted: 9 years ago
#43
Duryodhan, contrary to popular TV depcition, was an able ruler, astute politician, and a good diplomat
He did manage to collect 9 akhauhini Sena on his own, except for shalya( which again was his diplomacy ), and krishna's legion. All those leaders came and pledged their allegience to him.

+++++++++++++++++++++

Kunti is such a paradox. On one hand, she gave away karna and only came to him, when he was needed by her. On other hand, she brought up 5 sons, 2 of madri's almost equally. So much so, the twins used to stick to her all the time
from vanvaas to asramvaas, Kunti always asked yudi and draupadi to take care of sahadev
charminggenie thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#44

Originally posted by: Rehanism

This is something I wrote about Duryodhan's character in another forum :

Nice take!


"Certain aspects of Duryodhan's hatred towards Pandavas were understandable from the POV of ancient kingdoms and politics. Mortal rivalry among siblings and cousins was the most common thing to the point where queens employed maids and eunuchs to poison and abort the children of the rival queens to ensure a clean way for themselves and their kids. The great Ashoka born to a lesser queen murdered each one of his siblings and step-brothers and their children before ascending the throne of Magadh. 

Yes sibling rivalries especially for power and throne is not uncommon , even today we do see such cases happening on a daily basis but can "an attempt to murder" or molestation be ever justified by these reason. I personally don't think so. Ashoka unlike Duryodhan realized his folly and gave up the throne and violence , took a lifestyle which in his view was atonement of his sins. Like I previously mentioned - acceptance and regret is a good start and they separate the Great Ashoka from Duryodhana.

In such an age there's a kid whose father has been denied the kingdom for his physical handicap and his uncle Pandu, the king, dies in a forest under mysterious conditions. His other uncle, Vidur, forced his father to stand down the throne and wanted him killed as an infant because of the supposed bad omens. He has no good reason to trust his family elders.
A kid whoses father was the ruling King and an Uncle Shakuni who was the state consultant to his father , who guided him throughout doesn't seem to be a case where he would be wary of Vidhur, a mere minister when he had powerful people protecting him? If we count the numbers, Bhisma would always be loyal to the throne which his father occupied, barring say Vidhur - he didn't face much disapproval. 

 Everyone knew Pandu was impotent but one day his wife turns up with 5 kids who are now deemed as the heirs with Duryodhan himself being pushed to the same oblivion his father was, second fiddle to those who for all he knew were not his brothers at all (How many would buy Kunti's story of Pandavas being the magically procured children of gods?). What if it was a ploy by Vidur and Bhishma to take over the kingdom by installing a puppet ruler? 
You mean Bhishma would have resorted to installing a puppet ruler when he could have ruled the kingdom himself. If that was the case then why was he sympathetic to Pandu - who was more accomplished  compared to Duryodhan's father.  The questionable status of Kunti's children should have made the royal court more wary. I doubt a court full of ministers would have preferred the "so called progeny of God " as their leaders, if the intent was to support a puppet govt. Won't continuing the line of Kaurava be a better prospect?

Its not unheard of that priests and ministers often overthrew kings and installed a puppet king in their place who would do their bidding. His parents are blind and must depend on external support for daily chores as well as the running of the state affairs. His elders and teachers favour the pandavas. 
Contradiction - if the priests and ministers preferred the blind King then why would they favor Pandavas? 

He has no real mentor to turn to. But he won't swallow the insults the way his blind father did. He is determined to fight and take back what he believes to be his by hook or by crook.
He had mentors like Shakuni who taught him to be selfish and grab whatever he wants without any moral considerations. He had the elders who continued telling him to shun the part of greed like his Gurus , yet he refused to listen to him. Two ways, one choice. He made his own mistakes. Why did he not stop when he already got what he wanted -not once but multiple times. The sole intent of killing Pandavas later for reasons beyond the throne , makes him a cold blooded murder in my book. Hook or crook would never be right when a public stripping of a female is organized. 

 And the only person who he can trust and connect with more than any of his family is Karna, a man who shares similar dark past and hunger to find his rightful place in the world. And with Karna and Shakuni, he takes back control of the kingdom from Vidur and Bhishma, who in times of Dhritarashtra were the de facto rulers.
So if I think this through, his main enemies were Vidhur and Bhisma, shouldn't he had concentrated on eliminating them to stop the internal politics. Atleast thats what every angst ridden revengeful ruler did in History.Also why would Bhisma and Vidhura two power hungry ministers lost their lives for a "de facto ruler" or his vengeful son. what kind of power Vdhur and Bhisma were seeking? How would they pull the strings of any puppet govt from their graves? Was Duryodhan that dumb to make Bhisma the military General for a good part of the war? Also why fill the ranks of his army with Pandav sympathizers? 


Also it must be noted, contrary to what ⭐️bharat shows, Duryodhan was never a tyrant or exploiter.
Apologies , I don't understand the literal reference to Bharat. But usually they call him the molester, murder , cheater .  Though won't the credit to his governance go to the two power hungry ministers- Vidhur and Bhisma who held the same positions under him too.

His venom was directed solely against the Pandavas and hardly against anyone else.
So its ok if he cheats Pandavas , plot to kill them again and again. Humiliate their wife in a public audience , because well cousins did that during that time? Does it make him sound any better. 

When he was struck down unfairly by Bhim and Balram declared him as a nobler warrior than the Pandavas and blessed him with eternal bliss in heaven, the gods showered flowers on him (sorry, ⭐️Bhishma). Following which Krishna and Pandavas withdrew from the place with their heads hung in shame"
Umm from what I have read and understood, Bhim had to hit Duryodhan in that region because of his vow, it was a clash to kill. The vow was made after Draupadi's humiliation. This is what Krishna ,serene but not ashamed at all told Blaram -  "Yes, the letter of the law was broken," says Krishna, "but the spirit of the law was upheld so that victims are protected, not villains." This spirit is what we all currently feel when we read the news of rapes and molestation. The want to hang the culprits and stone them to death. We today curse the same laws, and feel they are preventive to capture the spirit of the crime - it is this very spirit which Krishna reminded to Balram, and the later , calmed down and understood.


My two cents, but like I said , great to play the Devil's Advocate here!
LeadNitrate thumbnail
Posted: 9 years ago
#45

Also contrary to popular depiction, that Kunti had a child before her marriage was sort of open secrete. It was quite well known, she had a son but he was given away
There are quite a few qoutes of duri in udyog parva which shows this.

But the name of the child or where he was brought up was not known
People like Vyas and Bheesma, probably knew with their intimate network of spies, logical deduction who exactly the boy was. Bheesma and Vyas always exchanged info with each other.

That was one reason Bheesma was not happy when Pandu brought kunti home. and he promptly managed another princess, some say, bought with favours to her brother for pandu

++++++++++++++++++++++

One more interesting thing, vyasa, his interest in pandavas and their welfare.
Strictly speaking, he should have been more inclined to kauravas, because they carry his gene and blood, yet he was always on side of pandavas, helping them, arguing their case.

Why do you guys think it is so?

is it because when the poet wrote MB, in order to ingratiate himself in the story, he made himself bio dad of D and P and son of satyabvati but really he was an outsider poet, who wrote this story, and favoured the winners/heroes?
Edited by LeadNitrate - 9 years ago
charminggenie thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#46

Originally posted by: LeadNitrate


Also contrary to popular depiction, that Kunti had a child before her marriage was sort of open secrete. It was quite well known, she had a son but he was given away
There are quite a few qoutes of duri in udyog parva which shows this.
Agree there is a lot of referencing about this being an open secret. 

But the name of the child or where he was brought up was not known
People like Vyas and Bheesma, probably knew with their intimate network of spies, logical deduction who exactly the boy was. Bheesma and Vyas always exchanged info with each other.
So if the secret of Karna was made public earlier would that not have turned against Duryodhan . Is it possible the identity was kept under wraps so as to make sure Duri always had Karna's support? How different the things would have shaped then.

That was one reason Bheesma was not happy when Pandu brought kunti home. and he promptly managed another princess, some say, bought with favours to her brother for pandu
Well there is also a take that Bheesma knew who karna was hence he never wanted him to participate the war and kill his own brothers , so the whole demand thing of removing Karna from the Army. 

++++++++++++++++++++++

One more interesting thing, vyasa, his interest in pandavas and their welfare.
Strictly speaking, he should have been more inclined to kauravas, because they carry his gene and blood, yet he was always on side of pandavas, helping them, arguing their case.
Or he just saw them as the ultimate underdogs, authors/poets love to bet on them.

Why do you guys think it is so?

is it because when the poet wrote MB, in order to ingratiate himself in the story, he made himself bio dad of D and P and son of satyabvati but really he was an outsider poet, who wrote this story, and favoured the winners/heroes?
Well I never buy his version to be the most accurate one, history always does seem to favor the winners. But the thing is , in his writing no one is spared not even Krishna. You could clearly mark out the shortcomings of every characters. For sure he was an outsider, his whole being the father thing would have undermined the social condition of that time. Was the political cabinet that weak to let an outsider procreate like that. 



LeadNitrate thumbnail
Posted: 9 years ago
#47
True, Vyasa does not even spare his own mother. her connivings are underlined by him and even admonished by him even.
I think if identity of karna was releaved, it would have created a whole lot of issues.

Pandu being dead, and not officially recognising karna, what would his status be? bas***d of a princess , and elder brother of 5 brothers of dubious paternity, fighting with another faction of their cousins for war. Where would he stand then? Is it not better to be known as adopted son of Adhirath and Radha than to be known as a bas***d of so and so. And him being pandav is a very crucial technicality. Smart people can easy find a way around it. 

Duri probably would have started hating on him.
Karna himself would not be sure, how to react.

Also there would a lot of political turmoil. For his part, karan was not a bechara. He was brought up in the palace technically, being son of adhirath: i sure it would not have happened if Bheesma did not permit. Why did he do it? Karna even studied under guru drona, up until the Brahmastra sharing incident after which he left.

Ideally speaking, his ID should have been revealed. But the world is not an ideal place. Not  are the resulting political and other complications.




There would entirely be possible, the disgression of Kunti would fall upon shoulders of her sons and their potential. Allthough, child out of wedlock happened then, but to bring it outopen, so brazenly, by a widow, whose sons are contendors for throne of a very powerful kingom , would have created extra complications for Bheesma and Kunti.
Bheesma firstly favoured yudi for obvious reason. Yudi had those qualities which duri lacked. Compassion in a king, and a knack of construction and not destruction are must. 

beside The bharata dynasty, went selecting kings not on birth right but on ability. King Bharata chose his adopted son over his bilogical sons to inherit his kingdom, The dynasty of the kurus.


It is said at places , Satyavati did not immediately rush of to vana after pandu died, she was there a while. Bheesma favouring pandu's sons and satyavati favouring Kauravas were gave of political power chess between step mother and step son.

I dont think its un natural that Bheesma would not favour satyavati's bet.
 satyavati had alliance of the fishering community, also biologically she was related to the matsya King s( She was one of the twins bron of king Uparichays semen. He only wanted the boy and not the girl, so gave her away to fisherman king)

Now as state figurehead in action, Bheesma, should such a turmoil arose, would have needed to ban Yudi's claim or cast aspersions on Kunti, or  his minister could have done so.
Would marginalising Kunti as a force would have been easy? She herself was shrewd politician and master of the game. That aside she had powerful allies on her on.


Kunti was adopted daughter of Kuntibhoj, but when the rivalry was taking its height, Kunti was also aunt of krishna and Balram. 2 Very strong and able and charishmatic yadava leader, who at mere teenage had already made their mark on aryavarta politics. Yadavas were a force to reckhon with ever since Kamsa's world tour. and with K and B at helm, they were unmatched and unoppsed ( myth of marayani sena probably rise from there)

She was sister to chediraj's wife as well ( yes, people only focus on shishupal and kanha, but fact his shishupal's mom and kunti and Vasudev were sibilings )

before Shishupal allied himself with jarasandh and consequently the kauravas later, Kunti had a ally there too.


So you see, all things said and done, revealing Karna's identity would have opened pandoras box in reality.

charminggenie thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#48

Originally posted by: -Aarya-

 

The two words which drive the fate of Mahabaharat...Free Will. Kauravas and Pandvas, both had choices to change their fate/destiny, and yet they decided on war! This is a clear example of with rights comes responsibility...



I always wondered what did Mahabaharat teach us today, how has it changed the lives of mankind, did we really need Krishna, BhagavatGeeta, etc...



The thing is we are so lost in debating the authenticity of the mythology or playing out the Devil's advocate for these character that we generally get distracted from what MB and BhagawadGeeta truly meant. Hence the relevance to the present context- we need to learn from them about responsible power, envy,jealousy , loyalty , karma and so on. The essence is in thinking and understanding how emotions internalizes us , among other things. 
Rehanism thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#49
@charminggenie - I am not saying Bhishma and Vidur WERE power hungry or scheming. I said that from Duryodhan's POV, its a good possibility. He never had any good reason to trust them. I believe this distrust manifested into his life long obsession with the Pandavas. Shakuni was barely active in the state affairs unless the Kaurava brothers grew up and were able enough to defend themselves in combat and had Karna by their side. Before that Shakuni worked his schemes, like poisoning Bhim, in clandestine..

As for why couldn't Bhishma and Vidur grab the throne directly, because he had famously made a vow he won't as a consequence of which he got the boon of self-chosen death. And Vidur was born of a low caste woman. And, assuming they wanted control, why do you thing they would have problems with the blind king? A handicapped king would be the god-send boon for ambitious regents and ministers as the king would be completely dependent on them. But if that king has capable sons, and that too numbering 100, there's a big problem. They would be needed to be eliminated or replaced at the earliest. And that's how, I think, Duryodhan interpreted the events.

Lastly, I never said that these are justifications of his actions. I said that his psychology and course of actions is somewhat understandable if seen from these angles.

Edited by Rehanism - 9 years ago
charminggenie thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#50

Originally posted by: Rehanism

@charminggenie - I am not saying Bhishma and Vidur WERE power hungry or scheming. I said that from Duryodhan's POV, its a good possibility. He never had any good reason to trust them. I believe this distrust manifested into his life long obsession with the Pandavas. Shakuni was barely active in the state affairs unless the Kaurava brothers grew up and were able enough to defend themselves in combat and had Karna by their side. Before that Shakuni worked his schemes, like poisoning Bhim, in clandestine..

As for why couldn't Bhishma and Vidur grab the throne directly, because he had famously made a vow he won't as a consequence of which he got the boon of self-chosen death. And Vidur was born of a low caste woman. And, assuming they wanted control, why do you thing they would have problems with the blind king? A handicapped king would be the greatest blessing for ambitious regents and ministers as the king would be completely dependent on them. But if that king has capable sons, and that too numbering 100, there's a big problem. They would be needed to be eliminated or replaced at the earliest. And that's how, I think, Duryodhan interpreted the events.

Lastly, I never said that these are justifications of his actions. I said that his psychology and course of actions is somewhat understandable if seen from these angles.


Ah , I did get what you were trying to say just that I don't get the co-ordination of psychology and his actions from this angle. I mean if this is way he felt about two of his main ministers , then why would he let them handle major wartime control. Also it is known that Duryodhan was an accomplished warrior, diplomat and politician in his own right. Hence my inability in understanding how his these issues made him take such actions which contradicted his psychology. Or did he fear mutiny /lack of support if Bhism was not leading the war? But then why Vidur , rather should he have focused on eliminating their combined thread first before taking the Pandavas? Apologies , if you thought I meant something else. Just that I feel it was his blinding envy and insecurity , facilitated by his crew that made him loose his head in such a way.