Freedom of expression/Inflaming religious senti's

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 13 years ago

#131

Originally posted by: Aya.

You make it sound like Muslims are the only ones in the world who are killing people !
Muslims have been killed in Palestine, Afganistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Berma, Lebanon, Pakistan, Indonesia, Egypt & in so many places in Africa & in the Middle East.
I agree Muslims are killing each other in their own land, but it's because of those evil leaders like Gaddafi, Assad, & Ali Abdullah Saleh. The innocent Muslims are just fighting for their rights !
I agree that it's those leaders who give Islam a bad name !
Women are being treated like trash everywhere in the world. Not just in some Islamic countries, but also in places like Africa, India, etc. Men in India throw acid on women ! That pisses me off !

Thanks for nothing Aya!

You actually proved Rehan's criticism of Islam. This attitude does not do your religion any favors. If you bothered reading the discussion we were having rather than simply jumping down my throat, you might have seen some context.

This attitude is exactly the reason why so many people like Rehan end up having a negative perspective on Islam. Whenever Islam is critiqued, even so called moderate Muslims refuse to accept that there are problems. Rather than accept that there are problems that need to be fixed, fingers are pointed at others "but everyone has problems".

That criminals exist in the world is not an excuse for me to become a criminal. I am responsible for my own actions. Similarly because problems exist everywhere in the world is not an excuse for Islam to over look its problems. Muslims are indeed responsible for actions in the name of Islam.

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344471

Suspended

Posted: 13 years ago

#132

@ Rehan - I am generally in agreement with you, and this time too I agree with a lot of what you've said, but pardon me for saying that I am finding you to be more biased than neutral today. Your recent posts seem more charged-up and a bit one-sided.

- Interpretation is often personal and subjective. There is often no right and wrong in it, and when we consider something like religion, without all the information available (which is completely impossible, as neither the writers nor God can communicate with us directly), we can only make our own assumptions and interpretations. Some interpretations will be more valid and accurate than others, but there is still no hard and fast rules that lays down who is right and who isn't. Religion, just like history, often deals with unverified "facts". Hence people can indeed interpret their religions in more peaceful manner and still consider it correct. Why are you so averse to it?

- From what I understand, Arabic isn't a language like English. There are several meanings of a single word. So a word like 'beat' can indeed mean 'abandon'. Let's go for the more positive interpretation, right? I believe Hebrew is similar or I could be wrong.

- Let's face it. We can't wipe away religion from society with a wave of a magic wand. It ain't happening so soon. Trying to move for more humanistic and peaceful interpretation is a better and more practical option than trying eradicating religions completely. Do you even think religions can completely be removed from the world? Even atheists and non-religious people celebrate Christmas, Eid and other religious festivals. Even non-religious people often believe in God and calls it according to the name they were raised to believe in. Even atheists would probably believe in a lot of religious values. Religion is such a big part of humanity's sociocultural identity, how can it be wiped out so easily and so soon? Isn't moving for more humanistic and liberal interpretation a better option?

- When we cannot figure out the lives of Leonardo Da Vinci, Shakespeare, Tagore, etc - people who lived a few hundreds of years ago - how can we be certain of people like Muhammad, Jesus Christ, etc? I find it ironic that on one hand people critical of religion says we don't know much about them to consider them prophets, yet part of the same people would criticize their lives as though they have known them on a daily basis. I would say the same for religious nuts who says "We don't know much about these figures so we can't criticize them", and then go on to list all the good deeds about their respective religious figures as though they have communicated with them face-to-face.

- If religion isn't all about peace and roses, then it certainly isn't only about bloodshed and violence either. Most people who studies theology as an academic discipline says religion is more neutral in nature than either positive or negative. Even if religion is intrinsically violent there maybe aspect of it which is good.

- My knowledge on Christianity is woefully limited (not that I am super-knowledgeable about Hinduism or Islam, but I think I know them slightly better), but is the Old Testament's ideas about sin and how to punish sinners any better than what is in the Qu'ran?

- Questions about Muslims reacting negatively to criticisms:
I think a lot of it has to do with political conditions of the country as well as social upbringing. In most Muslim countries freedom of speech is extremely limited. Most Muslims grow up thinking of questioning not only their or others religion but also political leaders and the likes as an extreme social taboo. They rarely hear views critical to Islam or their political leaders. This is something unimaginable to them which is why when faced with such an occurrence, they react so negatively. I think this holds true for a lot of Hindus residing in India too as India has been very conservative regarding these issues until very recently.

On the other hand you have even the most devoted Christians who won't mind much if you say something negative about their Jesus or their faith. This is simply because in western countries, freedom of speech is not a taboo. They regularly hear negative words about their faith, country, political leaders, which is why it never seems a big issue to them as it does to people like Muslims. Even a irreligious Muslim might react negatively to words against their faith while a devoted Christian might not, simply because they have been exposed to different things in their lives.

So I believe this has more to do with social upbringing and political conditions than just their religious texts.

- Faith freedom is indeed biased, just like a pro-Islamic site would be. I don't think RTH meant what is written there in Faith-Freedom to be entirely incorrect, it's just not a neutral site. Just as not everything in a pro-Islamic site would be wrong, but you or I would hardly give it any weight because they are inherently biased towards Islam. I think in a debate like this, one ought to provide articles from sites more neutral in nature. As for what is wrong with the article, RTH has already explained problems with it.

- Regarding reform, I will try to respond later.

- Can't watch the video now.

@ King-Anu - Now you know the joke. 😆 You just got too serious, I think RTH just threw a lay sentence there in jest, and somehow I managed to get the gist of it, and you thought we were mocking you. 😆 Hope you were not offended.

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324284

Suspended

Posted: 13 years ago

#133

World need more people like Majid Nawaz.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6430933n

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Rehanism

@Rehanism

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 13 years ago

#134

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

@King Anu, Aya, POH, Ajnu and other Muslims on the forum. I think violence and terrorism in Islam has gone too far. I also have a lot of problems with the archaic laws in countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran etc. It seriously pisses me off when some Muslims kill people, beat up and oppress women, condone stoning etc. I think just like the Protestant movement that rebelled against the atrocities and corruption in the Catholic church, Islam needs a reform movement that rebels against extremist leaders who give Islam a bad name. Can we have a discussion on the problems of Islam, why extremists abuse the religion and what we can do to eventually take them out of power ' so even Islam can be viewed as accommodating, progressive and peaceful.

Rest of Rehan's post later.

The problem is its the "extremists" who follow Islam the way its founder intended it to be followed, whereas the so called moderates and liberals dilute their faith and culture to pursue a more comfortable life style..

I remember reading a post in your blog where you pointed out things like Salman Khan respecting other religions and worshiping Ganesha or Shahrukh Khan keeping Lakshmi and Ganesha idols along side Quran or Sania Mirza wearing shorts - and you used these as proof of Islam's liberal nature..There is a serious flaw with this assumption - and that is you are using those behaviors that are strictly haram in Islam to prove its greatness..If Shahrukh Khan keeps idols in his house or brings up his children in an inclusive atmosphere, or Salman Khan celebrates Ganesha Chaturthi or Sania Mirza wears shorts, that's not because of Islam - that's despite Islam..All these are strictly forbidden in Islam..I have no qualms in accepting that there are millions of Muslims who are good, tolerant, liberal etc, but that's not because of Islam - that's because they have consciously chosen to forsake Islam's rigidity or perhaps they are simply not aware of its doctrines..

Taliban follows the purest form of Islam - the Islam that Muhammad and his Sahabha preached and practiced in 7th century and there's hardly a knowledgeable person who would dispute that. Why don't you use Taliban's example to prove the greatness and liberal nature of Islam? Why are you using heretical practices of Muslims to prove your point? You claim you have problem with stoning, amputation, wife beating, polygamy etc etc and yet you seem to have no problem with Islam that is the source of these and many more such evils in these societies? You have no problem with the system that has sanctioned and institutionalized these evil practices under the guise of divine commandments and thus made them immutable?

I know you might think that I am bigot or perhaps brainwashed or have got some personal reasons to hate Islam and I don't have any means to convince you that I don't. However I oppose Islam because I find it to be a very tyrannical system founded by a psychopath and a warlord; whose words and actions are criminal and obnoxious to the last degree.. And as long as Muslims consider this man to be the greatest human being or an eternal guide, there is no hope for Islamic world..If Islamic world has to reform and bring itself upto the standards of the West, then it has to abandon Muhammad and his cult..This is the plain truth..You may continue to pretend that people can consider someone like Muhammad to be a role model and yet somehow end up being Mahatma Gandhi themselves, but I personally prefer truth to lies no matter how sweet and palatable those lies might be..

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Aya.

@Aya.

Dazzler

Posted: 13 years ago

#135

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Thanks for nothing Aya!

You actually proved Rehan's criticism of Islam. This attitude does not do your religion any favors. If you bothered reading the discussion we were having rather than simply jumping down my throat, you might have seen some context.

This attitude is exactly the reason why so many people like Rehan end up having a negative perspective on Islam. Whenever Islam is critiqued, even so called moderate Muslims refuse to accept that there are problems. Rather than accept that there are problems that need to be fixed, fingers are pointed at others "but everyone has problems".

That criminals exist in the world is not an excuse for me to become a criminal. I am responsible for my own actions. Similarly because problems exist everywhere in the world is not an excuse for Islam to over look its problems. Muslims are indeed responsible for actions in the name of Islam.

I didn't have the time to read anyone's discussion.

I decided to reply back to only that small post of yours when I saw it, because I thought you were being a little...you know ? for a sec. Sorry, If I have misunderstood you. Didn't mean it intentionally. I got a little carried away. My apologies.

Anyway, what problems about Islam are you exactly talking about ?

Edited by Aya. - 13 years ago

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Aya.

@Aya.

Dazzler

Posted: 13 years ago

#136

Originally posted by: Rehanism

The problem is its the "extremists" who follow Islam the way its founder intended it to be followed, whereas the so called moderates and liberals dilute their faith and culture to pursue a more comfortable life style..

I remember reading a post in your blog where you pointed out things like Salman Khan respecting other religions and worshiping Ganesha or Shahrukh Khan keeping Lakshmi and Ganesha idols along side Quran or Sania Mirza wearing shorts - and you used these as proof of Islam's liberal nature..There is a serious flaw with this assumption - and that is you are using those behaviors that are strictly haram in Islam to prove its greatness..If Shahrukh Khan keeps idols in his house or brings up his children in an inclusive atmosphere, or Salman Khan celebrates Ganesha Chaturthi or Sania Mirza wears shorts, that's not because of Islam - that's despite Islam..All these are strictly forbidden in Islam..I have no qualms in accepting that there are millions of Muslims who are good, tolerant, liberal etc, but that's not because of Islam - that's because they have consciously chosen to forsake Islam's rigidity or perhaps they are simply not aware of its doctrines..

Taliban follows the purest form of Islam - the Islam that Muhammad and his Sahabha preached and practiced in 7th century and there's hardly a knowledgeable person who would dispute that. Why don't you use Taliban's example to prove the greatness and liberal nature of Islam? Why are you using heretical practices of Muslims to prove your point? You claim you have problem with stoning, amputation, wife beating, polygamy etc etc and yet you seem to have no problem with Islam that is the source of these and many more such evils in these societies? You have no problem with the system that has sanctioned and institutionalized these evil practices under the guise of divine commandments and thus made them immutable?

I know you might think that I am bigot or perhaps brainwashed or have got some personal reasons to hate Islam and I don't have any means to convince you that I don't. However I oppose Islam because I find it to be a very tyrannical system founded by a psychopath and a warlord; whose words and actions are criminal and obnoxious to the last degree.. And as long as Muslims consider this man to be the greatest human being or an eternal guide, there is no hope for Islamic world..If Islamic world has to reform and bring itself upto the standards of the West, then it has to abandon Muhammad and his cult..This is the plain truth..You may continue to pretend that people can consider someone like Muhammad to be a role model and yet somehow end up being Mahatma Gandhi themselves, but I personally prefer truth to lies no matter how sweet and palatable those lies might be..

Ok. You obviously don't know ANYTHING about Prophet Mohammad. So, I'm not even going to bother.

@bold -

Millions of Muslims are good, liberal, & tolerant is because that is exactly what Islam & Prophet Muhammad teaches us. If only thou, you cared to look instead of making ridiculous claims !

@red - What the hell ?! 🤢 I'm not even going to bother !!

@Beyond the Veil

I speak Arabic fluently & you are right !

Arabic is not like English at all !

Edited by Aya. - 13 years ago

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Rehanism

@Rehanism

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 13 years ago

#137

@ Labib - I am not biased today, but a bit sleepy and that's why a bit aggressive..😆

But what we need to realize that Islam is substantially different from other religions..Christianity could be reformed because of Secularism, but that is not possible for Islam..Outsiders often think "Hey, if the Christians can forsake the stupid laws of OT, so can Muslims..Its only a matter of time." This is where they underestimate Islam and its institutionalized nature. The core of Christianity is simply faith in Christ - nothing more - and no matter what the Pope or Holy Roman Empire did in his name, Jesus himself couldn't be possibly associated with any violent behaviour. In fact Christ's incarnation had supposedly diluted the Mosaic laws - Christ's 'Turn the other cheek' vs 'Eye for an eye' of the OT!! Islam on the other hand is extremely political by nature and every word of Quran is the verbatim word of the Creator of The Universe that is valid till the judgement day. The doctrines, the laws, the punishments, the dress code, the dietary ethics - every thing has been ordained by Allah and your job is to obey and not question. So you don't have the right to reform it. To reform Islam you need to be Allah himself.

For any reformation, first you need to accept the fact that your system is flawed. How will you convince Muslims that their religion - Allah's perfect word - is flawed? That's the reason you'll hardly find a Muslim who would say "Polygamy needs to be outlawed right away" or "Marrying underage girls needs to be done away with"..Most of them only try to offer apologies in defense of these behaviors and not actually reform them! And when they can't find any good excuse they say "What does our human intelligence count before Allah's infinite wisdom? If Allah has decreed it must be good for us"

I had read somewhere "The ability to transform an ordinary man's judgement into divine commandment makes religion the most dangerous force".

Edited by Rehanism - 13 years ago

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Rehanism

@Rehanism

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 13 years ago

#138

@ Labib - On Religion..

Well Religion is like sports, to use Sam Harris' analogy. Some sports like kick-boxing or street-fighting are violent and life threatening, some like sky-diving are dangerous but not exactly violent, whereas others like badminton or golf risk no more than a knee injury..So its difficult to generalize whether religion can be positive or negative..While every religion has had their share of crackpots and fanatics, we have religions like Jainism and Buddhism whose core principle is non-violence..So the crazier you are as a Buddhist or Jain fundamentalist the less do we have to worry about you..However if the fundamentals of a religion is violent, then you can't expect its fundamentalists to be anything short of terrorists..

On Wife Beating: Man has the right to beat his wife in case he fears disobedience - ie she refuses to sleep with him, leaves house without permission, doesn't cover herself up before other men, doesn't perform her religious/domestic duties etc..And each of these can also be a ground for divorce under Islamic law..

4.34 Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.
http://quran.com/4

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344471

Suspended

Posted: 13 years ago

#139

Originally posted by: Aya.
Anyway, what problems about Islam are you exactly talking about ?

I could be wrong, in which case correct me.

- Strict Islamic countries (Saudia Arab and Iran for instance) have many archaic laws - like public flogging, stoning and beheading people, amputating limbs of thieves for issues like stealing, premarital sex, drinking, homosexuality and adultery, etc. While stealing and adultery are crimes, do such inhuman and barbaric punishments really suit the extent of the crime? Premarital sex and drinking are personal choices, and even if criminalized I don't see how anyone can possibly prescribe barbaric punishments to such acts. Homosexuality is something one has no control over, and to put someone to death for it or force them to change their genders is plain sick to me.
Are such barbaric way of punishment condoned by Islam or not?

- Fatwas. They are being put on anyone and everyone around. Anyone who utters a word against Islam is issued a fatwa, some of which even carries the death penalty. Salman Rushdie, Ayan Hirsi, Taslima Nasreen - they all had been victims of it. Why is the punishment of criticizing Islam so harsh? Also, fatwas have no place in secular democracies, why put fatwas on people living in the countries that don't follow Islamic law?

- Is the Burkha mandated in Islam? If yes, why not a similar dress code for men too? Does people have the right to not wear the burkha or similar clothing? Is parents forcing their daughters to wear burkha wrong?

- Does Islam give people (Muslims and non-Muslims) the right to voice their opinions against Islam?

- What is the actual punishment for apostasy per Islamic law? (Ordinarily, there shouldn't be any punishment as it's no ones business but the person's what religion he wishes to follow and what he doesn't).

- Why is gay marriage not permissible under Islamic law, and why do Islamic societies and Muslims in general not acknowledge their existence? Science has proven it that being gay is not a choice and that there is currently no way gays can be made straight. Is asking them to change genders or stay celibate all their lives not unreasonable and inhuman? As far as I know, celibacy is not encouraged in Islam, so why this double standard? And why punish people based on something so harmless and personal, something that is beyond their control?

Now I am not saying Islam necessarily condones those acts. But the fact remains that these Muslims (many of them are even Muslim scholars who probably knows and studied Islam more
than we have) are justifying these acts by quoting verses from the Qu'ran and Hadeeth. So have all the verses been quoted out of context, misinterpreted or mistranslated? Or does Islam really allow them?

Share your opinion.

(I am done for today. Have spent the whole day - and night - behind an online forum 😭. Oh well. There were some good exchanges too). 😆

Edited by Beyond_the_Veil - 13 years ago