Freedom of expression/Inflaming religious senti's - Page 13

I've had the same thing told to me about the Bible by some preachers.

Any holy book is like a religious constitution (except it is non-amendable as well). The penultimate law of its followers. Implementation always depends on the judge (religious leader). Taking the US constitution – Jim Crow laws were once constitutionally legal, since Brown v. Board of Education they became constitutionally illegal. Almost all laws and implementations depend on how the lawyers present their case and how a judge sees it.

In the case of extremists, they tend to take a literal interpretation that supports their hatred and bigotry rather than a rational humanistic interpretation.

If someone watches Superman and jumps off a building to fly, then it is not Superman's fault, but the person is an idiot. It is not Islam's fault that some of its followers are dumb shit and a terrible excuse for a human being. But just how McDonalds has to tell us that "hot coffee" is actually "hot" because the world is full of mindless idiots, Islam needs to start taking accountability and responsibility and prevent their idiots from throwing hot coffee on themselves and everyone around.

Perhaps moderate and liberal Islamic leaders should issue death fatwas against the crazies. Fight fire with fire! 😆

^^ Wow!! Someway or the other Islam (or religion in general) HAS to be exonerated from all blames!! Brilliant logic, by the way, and that Superman analogy was out of the world..I am having a khujli in my hands to type a karara reply to your post, especially after reading that 'moderate and liberal Islamic leader' thingy..But as I said I won't discuss Islam any more..However for the time being you can do with this:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina50116.htm

Originally posted by: Rehanism

^^ Wow!! Someway or the other Islam (or religion in general) HAS to be exonerated from all blames!! Brilliant logic, by the way, and that Superman analogy was out of the world..I am having a khujli in my hands to type a karara reply to your post, especially after reading that 'moderate and liberal Islamic leader' thingy..But as I said I won't discuss Islam any more..However for the time being you can do with this:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina50116.htm

I read through the article you posted and I strongly disagree with it.

The entire article itself is a work of interpretation by the author. In order to claim that Islam cannot be reformed, the author interprets the Quran and the fact that Mohammed is the last prophet in a way that supports his argument.

Islam can and will be reformed, if the leaders have humanist perspectives and interpret their religions in more open manner. Ayatollah Khomeni took Iran backwards in time. In comparison Ata Turk made many sweeping democratic reforms to make Turkey a progressive and tolerant country despite being Islamic. A lot of sub-continental Muslims do not mingle with African American or Slavic Muslims because they infused Islam with their own culture, tradition and rituals that sub-continental Muslims disagree with. Different groups will agree and disagree on what is the right interpretation, but any religion can be reformed.

The examples of Christianity used in the article is absolutely ridiculous. The reason Christianity in modern times is seen as a more flexible, progressive and "reformed" is simply because Christianity is a lot older and has been through a longer passage of time reforming and adjusting along the way.

The Bible is not mythical either. The Bible is meant to be a narration of true historic account. Of course events in Genesis and Exodus as well as miracles of Christ are seriously questionable. In essence it is a historic narrative though. In fact if you study the history of ancient near East (Jordan/Israel/Syria) you would have to refer to Kings I and Kings II in the Bible, because there is no other historic account of the region. The Biblical accounts of migration of the tribes, the conflict with the Philistines, kingdoms of Abyssia, Saba etc are all true. It is merely a matter of separating the chaff or myth and legend from the grains of history. I'm not saying this because I'm a Christian or believe the Bible to be truth, but because had I decided to take a minor I've studied enough to get one in history of the church and ancient near East.

It is true Mohammed was a human and Islam was adapted and spread by warlords. And yes Mohammed was flawed like many other human beings of his time. I'm sure Muslims will disagree as they deem him as perfect and flawed. But as a historic figure to me Mohammed ranks just like Pericles, Alexander, Julius Caesar etc. – a human with several flaws and vices, but in essence a decent person who desired to do good for their people and yes somewhat swayed by ambition.

But was Christianity incepted and spread nobly then? Absolutely not. Christianity was formed and spread by kings, corrupt politicians and devious religious leaders who all hungered for power over the people. When the New Testament was put together the council of Nicaea actually sat down to pick and choose and decide how they would present Jesus Christ. They intentionally made him pure, virginal, flawless, compassionate, kind so that he would appeal to people. Many gospels of Jesus Christ which otherwise painted him flawed were burned and destroyed. As a result of which we don't really have a true picture of the man who was Jesus Christ, just his biblical account.

And Christians carried out crusades and inquests. Catholic Kings and Queens dished out riches for their warriors to go on inquisitions. Study the Spanish and Portuguese inquisitions in South America, Mozambique, Goa etc. It is also quite ghastly, bloody and barbaric with all sorts of torture and impaling. In history, Christian inquisition is just as delightful as ritual slaughter and cannibalism amidst the Incas, Aztecs and Mayans.

The Bible and the word of the pope was infallible and unquestioned, violating which meant death. Joan of Arc a devout Christian herself was executed for heresy. But through the protestant movement like Church of England, the works of Calvin, Luther etc Christian authorities were challenged and reforms continue taking place. In modern times many Unitarian churches are again sweeping through reforms like accepting gay marriage, accepting sex education even though other branches condemn it. The Vatican beatified Joan of Arc a woman they once burned and the pope finally stated condoms are acceptable.

Any religion can reform. And until true reform begins it is always the excuse "cannot, should not, will not – for the holy book says it is so".

And seriously citing Faith Freedom to criticize Islam is just as valid as citing NARTH to criticize homosexuality. It is a biased site of biased people serving the biased cause of criticizing Islam. Honestly, you cannot judge anything from a biased source. At least try to have more breadth in your research. You don't have to resort to Islamic scholars or Muslims for opinions on Islam either. There are several objective views on Islam that study the history, teachings, spread in a very unbiased pros and cons fact based method published by non Muslims. Many universities in the west itself will offer courses in Islamic studies etc that neither promote or condemn Islam but present it just like any other religion – one that has terrible aspects like terrorists and extremists and good aspects as well.

Can someone explain to me what is the irony in my posts?

"The entire article itself is a work of interpretation by the author. In order to claim that Islam cannot be reformed, the author interprets the Quran and the fact that Mohammed is the last prophet in a way that supports his argument. " - Explain this..Explain how exactly should be the proper interpretation of Quran and Muhammad's prophet-hood!

And what was that? Interpret in a more humanist manner? You mean translate things like "Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them" into "Kiss the unbelievers wherever you find them"?

Let me tell you this, many do try to interpret Islam in a civilized manner to the best of their ability. For instance Islam gives man the right to beat his wife. Now this is unacceptable in modern world and no one in their right mind can consider this to be a civilized behavior. So what Islamic apologists do is that they tell you "Oh! this is not an actual beating, its rather a gentle padding with a handkerchief or a feather as a symbolic chastisement"..No matter how stupid this interpretation is, several Muslims are convinced by this. But when you read the Hadiths you find Aisha's account of being actually thrashed by Muhammad for leaving home without permission or Abu Bakr beating his wives and later on having a laugh about it with Muhammad and you find Muhammad saying "Man will be never asked why he beat his wife"..

Religious moderation, especially in case of Islam, is like covering up one lie with another..Muhammad was not a flawed human, he was a psychopath - a megalomaniac narcissist..He believed himself to be the raison de'tre of the existence of this universe and that's what Muslims believe him to be. He murdered hundreds in a single day in Banu Quraiza just like that, he raped and allowed his men to rape women captured in war, he looted caravans, raided villages, kidnapped women and sold them in market, he tortured people to extract the location of their treasures, he sent assassins to brutally murder those who had offended him - which included men women and old people. Murder, rape, genocide, sex trade, slave trade, highway robbery, assassination, pillage, pedophilia, torture, crimes against humanity - there's hardly a crime known to mankind this monster didn't commit..Even Adolf Hitler is dwarfed before him..And Muslims believe him to be the most perfect of all creations, seal of prophets and a mercy upon worlds and try to emulate him..You believe that some miracle would happen and all these facts would somehow change? And why should we pretend that Muhammad was just another human being who erred? Why then we don't attempt to find some "moderate" Nazism or "liberal" Fascism? Why, then, shouldn't we try to justify Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot? Because they were not religious leaders?

You ask if Christianity can be reformed why not Islam? Because despite the political power that the Church wielded in medieval Europe, Christianity itself never had a political character. Christ was never interested in politics or worldly powers..When a citizen asked him whether they should pay their taxes to Caesar or to God, Jesus held up a coin and asked them "Whose face do you see?". They replied, "Caesar's". Jesus said "Then render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God that is God's"..This very statement laid the foundation of the principle of secularism that forced the Church to relinquish its hold upon politics, military and society of Europe..Christianity, on itself, is plainly a faith. Its not a political system. Islam is. Islam is not a mere devotional creed. Its politics, its military, its society, is culture, its state and its constitution and above all it is decreed by the creator of the universe to be the last, perfect and unchangeable religion..Secularism is not merely alien to Islam, its also antithetical to Islam. God is the head of the state and the sovereign dictator of all its affairs. There is no way of separating state, society, culture and religion in Islam. In short if you are to qualify as a good Muslim, you must lead a scripted life with little choice over your life style and behavior. And this is what makes Islam different from other religions..Islam is not just another religion. Its a cult of controlling the individual and the world.

For once and for all, lets cut the crap about this "moderate" or "liberal" Islam..There's no such thing. There's only one Islam and that's Muhammad's Islam that is meant for all times. Even the simplest deviation from Islamic tenets have led to massacres and pogroms. Moderation is against Islam. No one has the right to reform or reinterpret Islam. Islam, as Muhammad designed and sealed it, is the perfect word of God for 1.6 billion Muslims..The ones who appear to be moderate Muslims or Secular Muslims are actually Munafiqs (hypocrites) in Islamic vocabulary. Its only ill-informed intellectuals like yourself who use these witless words like "moderate Islam" or "liberal Islam" or "extremist Islam"..The problem with you guys is that you don't know what it is actually like to believe in God, in salvation, in damnation, to believe that someone - some invisible big daddy - is constantly keeping an eye on you, your every movement is being watched and you'll be judged for every damn thing that you do..Have you read George Orwell's novel 1984? Islam is exactly like the nation state of Oceania and its Party and Allah is the Big Brother.

You called FFI biased - alright, then prove it wrong!! Whichever part you find is presumptuous or incorrect - present your own evidence against that! Before that watch this :

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krvCQbzPKiI[/YOUTUBE]

And if you think Islam can be reformed just like any other religion, why don't you suggest it to Muslims or those who are really informed about it and believe in it!! Lets see how they respond to your plans..You can begin with this forum itself..

Originally posted by: King-Anu

Can someone explain to me what is the irony in my posts?

RTH "The rainbow. I like how King-Anu's responses turn into rainbows sometimes. The subtle irony."

Another option that comes to mind is that a rainbow shows full color under certain conditions. Perhaps this means that I post more (more colors) in certain topics i.e. Islam related.

No need to be worried though. i wont mind. You dont know my threshold level lol. I am also okay with negative comments as long as they are straight and honest.

Oh my God King Anu, you can be so Sirius.

The rainbow is a well known symbol for the LGBT. Usually flaunting a rainbow flag means supporting LGBT. Your posts turn so colorful like a rainbow. Considering your views on LGBT, I find it ironic. Nothing negative at all. Just me being silly and giggly.

Siriusly Anu, Don't be a such a drag, leave that for the queens. [Yes, I am being silly and carrying on puns]😆

Prophet Mohammad was the greatest man ever born in the history of mankind. You should read more about him. Before pointing out his flaws, take a good look at yourselves.

This is for people who claim that the Quran commands Muslims to kill Infidels: Please read the Best Answer only, because that person explained it well.

Originally posted by: Rehanism

And if you think Islam can be reformed just like any other religion, why don't you suggest it to Muslims or those who are really informed about it and believe in it!! Lets see how they respond to your plans..You can begin with this forum itself..

@King Anu, Aya, POH, Ajnu and other Muslims on the forum. I think violence and terrorism in Islam has gone too far. I also have a lot of problems with the archaic laws in countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran etc. It seriously pisses me off when some Muslims kill people, beat up and oppress women, condone stoning etc. I think just like the Protestant movement that rebelled against the atrocities and corruption in the Catholic church, Islam needs a reform movement that rebels against extremist leaders who give Islam a bad name. Can we have a discussion on the problems of Islam, why extremists abuse the religion and what we can do to eventually take them out of power – so even Islam can be viewed as accommodating, progressive and peaceful.

Rest of Rehan's post later.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

@King Anu, Aya, POH, Ajnu and other Muslims on the forum. I think violence and terrorism in Islam has gone too far. I also have a lot of problems with the archaic laws in countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran etc. It seriously pisses me off when some Muslims kill people, beat up and oppress women, condone stoning etc. I think just like the Protestant movement that rebelled against the atrocities and corruption in the Catholic church, Islam needs a reform movement that rebels against extremist leaders who give Islam a bad name. Can we have a discussion on the problems of Islam, why extremists abuse the religion and what we can do to eventually take them out of power ' so even Islam can be viewed as accommodating, progressive and peaceful.

Rest of Rehan's post later.