The Legacy of the South: Carnatic Music - Page 2

Originally posted by: MrspetloverUS

So now you have just wee bit info on my family background. I am extremely proud of his achievement and honored to be part of Trivedi Family.

You are wrong when you say that there is no connection between Sama Veda and music. Sama Veda has Rig Veda verses set to music. You have to be extremely musically inclined to chant the Sama. Lord Krishna says that "among the Vedas, I am Sama Veda" in the Bhagawad Gita.

Trivedi means that at some point, some ancestor of yours has studied and mastered three Vedas. It is something to be proud of and to emulate.

Yes KB ji.....its Carnatic music style, she holds a masters in Carnatic music also.....

Thanks Abhilash ji and KB ji.....

first of all....KB ji....great post...very knowledgeable.... thank u... 👏 👏

Varshaji....what a great family background...u never let us know.....wow...what a great honor..... 👏 👏 👏

hi Kishore_bhakta

really felt nice to read your post...having learnt carnatic music myself i never cared to take this initiative...nice to hear such discussions on the form...people like you,Mr Roy,Mr Adwarkanath(article on ghazal) are really doing a good job & changing the outlook of newbies like me towards this forum...great going...we only encourage more of such discussions & articles..thank you 😊

Thanks a lot bhaktaji😛

Originally posted by: kishore_bhakta

Friends, we have travelled through North India and explored the magic of North Indian music touching the three pillars: melody through ragas, rhythm through talas, and drone through tanpura tuning.

We now enter a new dimension of music, the music of South India, known as Carnatic music. Carnatic music was founded by Purandara Dasa in the fifteenth century. Through time, many musicians and devotees studied this type of music with improvements in teaching and performing. In the eighteenth century, Venkata Mukhi Swami developed a system of classifying ragas called the melakarta system. In addition, the biggest component of the Carnatic sangit paddhati were Thiyagaraja, Samasastri, and Muthuswami Diksitar. They theorized the music as to what we see in its present form. The "trinity" as well as disciples before and after have written many compositions in ragams and thalams. Carnatic music today is becoming one amazing and complex field.

The first aspect to study is are the notes. Like in North India, there are seven main swars.

Sadjamam (Sa), Risabham (Ri), Gandharam (Ga), Madhyamam (Ma), Panchamam (Pa), Dhaivatam (Dha), Nishadam (Ni). Read "Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Dha Ni: The 7 Notes" thread for derivation of the names.

Like North Indian music, they have altered forms as vikrta swars. Their approach is a bit different. Even nomenclature of the swars are different.

Before we hit the difference, let us examine some postulates.

1) Sa and Pa are achal swars (not moveable)

2) Except for Sa, Pa, and ma, all swars have a flattened form.

3) Ma has a sharpened form.

This is all the similarities we shared in Hindustani classical. The sargam SO FAR will look like this using Hindustani notation.

S r R g G m M P d D n N S'

In Carnatic, Re and Dha can have a super sharpened form. Thus, Re and Dha have three forms. In this order, we can have (using Hindustani terms for now):

Sa

Komal Re

Shuddha Re

"Tivra" Re

Of course, there is no such thing as Tivra Re. But analytically, the sharper form of shuddha re is really komal ga. Look back at the sargam above.

Same goes with Dha. "komal dha, shuddha dha, 'tivra' dha" "Tivra dha" = komal ni.

Ga and Ni are allow three forms too. The shuddha ga, komal ga, and ati-komal ga.

Starting from ma, lets look backwards. Using Hindustani terminology...

shuddha ma

shuddha ga

komal ga

"ati-komal" ga

There is no such thing as a "note" "ati-komal ga". But analytically, the ati-komal note would be "shuddha re." Refer to sargam if there are any questions. This is true for Ni too. From high Sa, in the backward direction there is Shuddha Ni, komal ni, and "ati-komal" ni. Ati-komal ni is really shuddha dha.

RECAP: S and P are achal. The note m has two forms. R, G, D, and N have three forms. R and D have super-sharp forms and G and N have super flat forms.

Since four of the notes have three forms, we have to use a different way of naming these notes. Besides uppercase and lowercase, there is not a third way to record these notes.

Hence, we use numbers. In parenthesis is the HINDUSTANI name.

S

R1 = (komal re)

R2 = G1 = (shuddha re) ('ati-komal' ga)

R3 = G2 = ('tivra re') (komal ga)

G3 = (suddha ga)

M1 = (suddha ma)

M2 = (tivra ma)

P

D1 = (komal dha)

D2 = N1 = (suddha dha) (ati komal ni)

D3 = N2 = (tivra dha) (komal ni)

N3 = suddha ni.

S'

Hence our sargam is complete with SIXTEEN notes. I will stop here, as I am going to include very complex material in the next posting I do. 😊

Dear Varshaji, Thanks so much for talking about Trivedi.. Many of us would not have known if you had not mentioned it here..
So happy that I atleast know somebody belonging to the great Trivedi lineage... Nothing can be called as digression from main topic as long as it helps us in enriching ourselves ...

WAH kishore ji! what knowledge u have abt music! wow...i am speechless...

some people may be wondering the differences between hindustani and carnatic music

i will just post some in a simple way:

In carnatic music, in almost everysong we sing, we do an alaap before it... That alaap has to be in the Raag, but with no beats. Whereas in hindustani music, we do alaaps with rhytham.

In a traditional carnatic catcheri (show), we only use Ghadam (matka), a violin and mridangam. I am not sure abt hindustani (im sure kishore ji will know)

This is very hard to explain, but ill still try... The style of carnatic music is very different from hindustani.. In hindustani music, we do alot of Akaras and heavy things like that, but in Carnatic, we do slow, but VERY melodious alaaps, etc... We also do some akaras, but not as good and not as often as hindustani singers do...

In carnatic Alaaps, we use the words: Tadarinana, Ta, Na, Ri. We do not use any other words or phrases... Whereas in hindustani (correct me if i am wrong), we often only sing with "Aaaaa" becuz of the heavy akaras we do...

I hope i didnt say anything wrong.. I'd be really ashamed... Kishore ji mujhe maaf kar dey ne agar maine kuch galat bola hai... Plz dont hesitate to disagree with what i wrote...

kishore ji, once again, i thank you a million!
STANDING OVATTION TO KISHORE JI... 👏

Originally posted by: abhi_music

some people may be wondering the differences between hindustani and carnatic music

i will just post some in a simple way:

In carnatic music, in almost everysong we sing, we do an alaap before it... That alaap has to be in the Raag, but with no beats. Whereas in hindustani music, we do alaaps with rhytham.

In a traditional carnatic catcheri (show), we only use Ghadam (matka), a violin and mridangam. I am not sure abt hindustani (im sure kishore ji will know)

This is very hard to explain, but ill still try... The style of carnatic music is very different from hindustani.. In hindustani music, we do alot of Akaras and heavy things like that, but in Carnatic, we do slow, but VERY melodious alaaps, etc... We also do some akaras, but not as good and not as often as hindustani singers do...

In carnatic Alaaps, we use the words: Tadarinana, Ta, Na, Ri. We do not use any other words or phrases... Whereas in hindustani (correct me if i am wrong), we often only sing with "Aaaaa" becuz of the heavy akaras we do...

You are very accurate in your comparison. In North India, some artists use ta, ra, na, tom, etc. sometimes in the alaap, but not as often in Carnatic music.

In Hindustani, it USED to be pakhawaj, sarangi, tanpura, and an accompanying vocalist.

Then, it became tabla, sarangi, tanpura, and vocalist

Then, it became tabla, harmonium, tanpura, and vocalist

Then, it became tabla, harmonium, and electronic tanpura.

I wish I had a sarangi/esraj/dilruba player to accompany me. For now, I settle with harmonium, but a sarangi player is something I desired.

There are also more differences not mentioned like the chromatic forms acceptable in Carnatic music. Hindustani does not allow this, except with small exceptions.

Tala in North is based on theka along with tala structure, while Carnatic is based on tala structure w/ no theka.

Hema Started Carnatic Music when he was 13. Like 4 years ago!!!!!!

Wud like to add my observation too...may not be as good as KBji's

I'd want to describe the Carnatic style of concerts(kacheri)


The first rendition in a concert is usually a varnam or any kriti/keerthana in raagams like hamsadhvani, nata etc.This is considered as an offering of prayers to Lord Ganesha(Lot of compositions in Carnatic music for Lord Ganesha are in Hamsadhvani).

Then would be a series of Krithis/keerthanas which will have an elobaration of raaga, the composition and then the swara prayogam by the artist in the same raga(as the composition).I'd want to brief on this now.
First the ragaam
Carnatic style is gamakapradhaanam when raaga is rendered...the alaap mentioned by abhi_music is an elobaration of the raga in which we r going to perform a kriti or keerthana.It is usually the construction of raga, from simple to complex renditions of raga.This shows the prowess of an artist on understanding of the raga, its structure and feel.its the prmutations and combinations(and how best) of the swaras in the raaga.(The order/index of the raga is the aarohana and avarohana in which the swaras in the raga and their order is described-Any rendition either raagam or swaram shud not deviate fromn this index).This is often sung in Ta da ri na na,ta na or hari or such words.Its absolutely a performers area.

Then the composition, where the prefixed notation is followed(compositions from saints like Tyagaraja,Syamasastry and Mutthuswami Dikshitar, the trinity of carnatic music or by the likes of Patnam Subrahmanya Iyer etc).This is strictly to the composition.

Then the swara prayogam.From simple to complex, showing the calculation capacity of the singer in setting number of swaras in the tala.Using sets like 3 -sa ri ga -ri ga pa- or 4 and forming a phrase within the framework of raga to fit in the tala in which the composition is set.

This is how a kriti/keerthana is sung.

There is generally a main item in a concert where the process is done with rigorous vocal exercises devoting longer time to it.Also a phrase in the composition is taken and eloborated(not in the composition), showing the raga bhava with saahityam.Swara prastaaram is done along with this and then the accompanists like violin, mridangam and ghatam also eloborate on their instruments and the kriti closes with the pallavi again.

To pace up the concert often short and fast kritis are sung and also compositions like Tillana where there is lot of sound and only saahityam in the end like a sign off.This sets pace to a concert.

A concert is ended with a mangalam, a composition hailing Lord and thanking him.(There are many compositions for Mangalams also).

I'm not sure if I was clear.I'd love to hear feedback on this.Please let me know if I missed on anything or if I went wrong somewhere.

Thanks!