The Kashmir Valley and India & others...

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Posted: 15 years ago

Yes, yes I know ... most of you will say "there is no argument" ... but is that really true? ... Question yourself once again.

Kashmir is the most restless 'so-called' state of India. Its the only state, which according to article 370 of the Indian Constitution, no Indians (?) even the President, can get an inch of land in Jammu & Kashmir. There is no question of settling non locals to that area.

It can be said that the Kashmiri Pandits (most of who have left Kashmir) do not want a Seperate State called United States of the Democratic Republic of Kashmir, but their demographic strength is very feeble. In 2003, the percentage of Muslims in the Kashmir Demography was 95% and those of Hindus 4%
(Source: http://kashmirhotelpackages.com/kashmir_informations/demographics.html)

Administered by	Area	Population	% Muslim	% Hindu	% Buddhist	% Other
India	Kashmir Valley	~4 million	95%	4%*	–	–
	Jammu	~3 million	30%	66%	–	4%
	Ladakh	~0.25 million	48%	–	46%	6%
Pakistan	Azad Kashmir	~2.6 million	100%	–	–	–
	Northern Areas	~1 million	99%	–	–	–
China	Aksai Chin	–	–	–	–	–
Statistics from the BBC In Depth report. About 135,000 Hindus/Muslims in Indian Administered Kashmir are internally displaced due to militancy. - CIA

(Source: Wikipedia/BBC)

The above clearly shows the greater voice in the Kashmir Valley.

There have been several seperatist groups, associations, parties ... rallies inside Kashmir. We all know how much anti-military they have been. The Kashmiris always accuse the Indian Army of brutalising them, while there have recently been a few rallies which ended by the stone throwing over the Army and Police.

Like every movement, not everyone in Kashmir take up arms. Some take up arms, while others try and just support them ... either morally, politically, idealistically or economically. There are voices all over Kashmir who really do not want to be with Pakistan or India.

But we Indians often ignore this fact. The discontentment of the people in Kashmir Valley is so true. DO WE EVER WONDER AS TO WHY THEY ARE SO ANNOYED WITH MAINLAND INDIA?... India was never such an enemy for Kashmir. Kashmir was always known to be a secularised landlocked region which preached the Sufi version of Islam. Kashmiris HAD been a peace loving people. Now they are walking time bombs asking for their Independence.

The UNO suggested (and some claim that they requested/asked) India and Pakistan to allow a free and fair referrendum in Kashmir, allowing the Kashmiri people with the opportunity to self determine their political fate. However, this right to them have been denied repeatedly (and we saw a dialogue in the movie "Fanaa" by Tabu).

Although I do understand the emotions attached with us Indian over the union and Kashmir being a part of it ... but are we not supposed to think about it all over again?

IF WE LOVE Kashmiris truly ... then would we be bothered whether it belongs to India or be it FREE ... if the homes of Kashmiris are safe and with smiles? ... Ofcourse PAKISTAN is not the solution for Kashmir ... but Independence might just be?.... or is it?

Every nation does have a fundamental right to claim their piece of land based on the cultural, shared history, traditional, racial and religious grounds. Language also is a factor which the movements in Bangladesh (East Bengal) proved. Nations which form their own countries with such characteristics are known as NATION STATES. India does not qualify being called 'Nation State' in the truest of sense (look into the definition).

So are we being too stubborn over Kashmir? ... Should we look for another solution than the one we have been pursuing since Independence? ... Are we imposing ourselves on another nation who would rather be independent?

Are we afraid that the Independence of Kashmir might start a chain reaction in other disputes all over India?

Many suggest that the LOC should be declared international borders, just as was the case with Punjab and Bengal, there can be yet another partition. But the case of Punjab and Bengal was not similar to that of Kashmir! ... If the partition will happen according to that formulae, we will have to loose the entire region to Pakistan. I DO NOT THINK PAKISTAN DESERVE KASHMIR OR KASHMIRIS WANT PAKISTAN DOMINATION ... I feel that there are high chances that Kashmiris would opt for an Independent Kashmir.

Do you think are RE THINKING over this situation is worth while?.... Give your views.

BY THE WAY ... there is a forum just as active as IF (or more active) in Facebook. It was recently said to have reached one of (if not the) biggest fanbases in facebook, with people from every corner of the world - specially Kashmiris - its fan. And also with the most actively participating members.

The name of this group is KASHMIR, and they have people who are Kashmiri, non Kashmiri (europeans, pakistani and Indian and americans) who are into healthy (or sometimes unhealthy) discussions with each other regarding day to day events in Kashmir: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/JammuKashmir

You guys may feel like having a look.

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chal_phek_mat

@chal_phek_mat

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Posted: 15 years ago

You know there are several things in life that you think are right, but you also know is not acheivable, and you also know it will lead to lot of agita to even have a conversation about it

Let's mark Independant Kashmir state as being one of them

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479445

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Posted: 15 years ago

Originally posted by: chal_phek_mat
You know there are several things in life that you think are right, but you also know is not acheivable, and you also know it will lead to lot of agita to even have a conversation about it
Let's mark Independant Kashmir state as being one of them

Maybe not achievable now ... but will be achievable with more matured minds coming in, in out future.

This is a topic ... and thus this will be solved. I have faith in Indians and Kashmiris. i have faith in the mind of the faithful. I dont think that this is impossible.

A Secular, Independent, Democratic Republic of Kashmir ... which is neutral and have good relations with India, China and Pakistan. Better relations with India and China will mean better economy.

Regarding the millitancy today in Kashmir ... its because of the need to be independent. The desperation. The need to send a message. Otherwise Kashmiris by nature are very much secular and peaceloving. I have full faith in the administrative capabilities, and their heart which will turn to normal when their independence is achieved. I would love to see the Pandits also cooperate towards a Secular and Independent Kashmir (it will be for their own good - the only good. As Indian governments have been using them as tools and nothing else).

Why should people get agitated in thinking about it?... Specially when independence is such a prized and core neccessity for any community. WE RECEIVED IT FROM THE BRITISH EVEN WHEN MANY IN INDIA DID NOT WANT IT... we know how prized this is.

It will be for the good of everyone.

On the Kasab topic ... we discussed it to an extent. Although this topic went unanswered. This does not disappoint me. I am hopeful. All those who love Kashmir TRULY and honestly will always remain hopeful.

Edited by Ice-Thinker - 15 years ago

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461339

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Posted: 15 years ago

they need to scrap article 370.

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souro

@souro

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+ 2

Posted: 15 years ago

^^ Exactly Empti. Indian politicians only know how to cheat the general public and make money but score a big zero when it comes to real politics. They should have just done away with that stupid article and pushed as many people from other parts of India as possible. That'd have subdued the voice that some people are talking about.

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 15 years ago

Firstly, 11000 is peanuts by FB standards. I am not sure what is the benchmark you are using to call the linked group one of the largest in FB: but there are bigger and more active groups – and I feel that the membership in the group is lopsided.

Independent Kashmir is an idealistic option, not a realistic one. There are Indians, Pakistanis, Hindus, Muslims, and Buddhists who desire 'Independent Kashmir'; but that comes more from the frustration of being torn between nations arguing over the land rather than a realistic long term situation. No one likes being caught in the middle of disputing parties and the people of Kashmir have unfortunately suffered over the ages due to the soft and shaky stance taken on the situation.

So much time has passed since the original plan of plebiscite that the circumstances are moot. There have been many political, social and military changes and as of today Kashmir is in a volatile state. Sure if being an independent state makes majority of all Kasmiri's happy, I would want them to be happy. The question is, whether that is the case and if it really is feasible.

Kashmir is a piece of land locked between India, Pakistan, and China. As an independent state can it really sustain itself and maintain peace. There has been a lot of terrorist infiltration into Kashmir and innocent children are being recruited and trained. Will independent Kashmir be able to keep its citizens safe from these rogue forces? Do they even have the power and resources to do that? What Kashmir really needs is stability and security. To be part of a nation that can secure the region, and promote growth and development – and revive a once flourishing tourism industry. They are in too dire straits to do it independently.

The only country that can offer Kashmir that is India. Pakistan cannot control terror in their own half pint size country for now. They have lost SWAT to Taliban and surely do not have the political atmosphere to stabilize Kashmir. It could turn bleaker for Muslims in Kashmir too. Unless Pakistan dramatically changes over the next few years and hard core eliminates terror within their country they are not responsible to take over a new difficult terrain. China may seem like a third party, but I would trust China less than Pakistan. Look what they did in Tibet. Will the Buddhists in Ladakh be secure for long and be ensured safety from persecution? Then there is also the question of whether displaced Hindus can be able to return to their original homes. The status quo of over the years is not working, and a stance needs to be taken.

Negotiations can take place the day Pakistan can eliminate most terrorist camps in their country and China can stop its human rights violations (Don't see it in my lifetime).

A lot of people who speak on Kashmir, have never really lived in Kashmir (Including me that is). My only interaction with Kashimiris was a Kashmiri family that migrated to Mumbai with their kids. The teenage boys would often call home to speak to extended family. Once they were at the phone booth calling and we heard really loud sounds from the phone.(It was around the time of Kargil). We asked WTH was that? They replied that the neighbors house just got razed in across the border shelling. That's life in Kashmir, and all the family and everyone in the village back home wanted was peace and stability so they could tend to their fields and goats than worry whose house will be razed next. Independent Kashmir will not give them really give them that.

PS: As mod I also need to add, this topic better not turn into bashing of any nation or religion otherwise it will be locked.

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479445

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Posted: 15 years ago

Return_To_Hades: Your last line ... is that a threat?... If you want you can close this topic any moment.

And others who want Article 370 being scrapped... keep dreaming.

Coming back to Sarina ... well its the largest Kashmiri group (correction).

Kashmir had been stable and secure before... it can be again. Where there is an independence movement ... such organisations are created. They have a mission ... a reason to surivive... once the occupation by India and Pakistan is over ... they will go down the drain aswell.

Bangladesh had Mukti Jodhas and other organisations with children recruits. Once the country got free these things ended. Bangladesh might not be very successful, but it was always a place of drought and flood. Kashmir is a whole different story and I believe that those people have what it takes to be a very successful country.

We in India had the Indian Army by Subhash Chandra Bose... more small organisation which wanted to get freedom aggressively rose up. Things got calm when legitamacy to Indian Freedom organisations were acheived.

Being land-locked do not in any way take their right to be independent away.

I have read all your points .. you seem to be in two minds about Kashmir. The best is to give it freedom in my view ... and this is rightful aswell. The nature of these people is to be secular...

As for suoro ... pushing in people inside Kashmir (todays hell) will keep it with India?.... Grow up.

Have a nice time guyz ... for a change think with your heart and mind together.

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chal_phek_mat

@chal_phek_mat

Inactive

Posted: 15 years ago

First of all one needs to understand all the angles of the situation to have a conversation about it(and I am not saying I know all the angles, but atleast I know more than 2 angles to the situation), if you look at it only from one perspective, you will come only with one answer which will not work on a long term.

J&K has 3 prominent region, Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh. Yes the combined state has a largely Muslim Population and technically should have been a part of Pakistan. However it also had a largely Hindu dominated political structure. The people were the most inclusive of other regions.

There was always a feeling that their brethren joined the "Islamic nation" and they were left behind. But over a period of time seeing how things worked in Pakistan and "Azad Kashmir' a lot of Kashmiris came around to seeing either a independant J&K or being a part of India as a lesser evil.

But then economic development came to a standstill, their political rights started getting trampled around late 80's early 90's.

If economic development would have been prioritized in Kashmir we wouldnt be having the current problem.

If Kashmir breaks away in the current state, Pakistan will have 2 Afghanistan to deal with. India will have immediate Afghanistan situation to deal with. To deflect the issue Pakistan will encourage the "other" independance struggles and we will have more and more problems in Hyderabad, Maharashtra, UP and Bihar and guess what instead of currently Azad Kashmir being the launching pad, it will be the current Kashmir that will be the launching pad for the activities. There went the peace and freedom of Kashmir.

Yep religion does play a large part. Muslims have seen lesser growth throught Inda than other religions in India, most of it is their fault, part of it is also the fault of the Indian state. Part of it has been the leaders that they have chosen to follow and part of it has been the culture in India,

If Kashmir breaks away from India, Hindu's have a valid demand to ask all Muslims to take the minority status, declare India as a Hindu state and whoever objects to leave the country with Kashmir.

It is very simplistic to say, Oh Kashmir has a large Muslim population and they should cease to be part of "Predominatly" Hindu India.