Please try to answer - Page 4

Originally posted by: wayward

I am feeling even more bad after reading 2-3 paragraphs vo upar wale.

sometimes I feel what kind of life he had, I mean what life was he living, was there any peace or happiness I don't know.

Why he did not call people of Vrindavan to Dwarka, I mean the city was big enough to accomodate more people naa? so they all could live there aaram se?

and one more thing, if he could not go there then at least he could have sent someone like Arjun to meet his people, his mother, his father and his gopis, I mean Arjun or someone could be in disguise and see them there.

btw I wonder was Arjun even aware about his childhood, I mean even he must be knowing that much only jitna everyone must be knowing What do you think? was he even aware about his Ras Lila and gopis and all?

Although they both were kind of best friends but did Arjun know all this?

accha how was Nand benefitted by sending Krishna to Mathura? He toh lost his son, he did not get anything from all this so why would Nand do this?

Wait who got STD? Which version is this? What happened?

and one more thing

Was Arjun upset about Draupadi division because the things he told to Yudhishthir on 16-17th day was not just because he had to do? It did not look as if he could not kill his brother so just on Krishna's advise he said all those things. If we read the text then by reading that incident it felt as someone is venting out and taking years and years of frustration out on his eldest brother and nothing else

however after that both Yudhishthir and Arjun felt bad so I don't know what's true, what do you think?

I am pasting the quote in the separate post.

So it goes like this

Yudhishthir was about to kill Arjun because he disrespected him and more than him he disrespected his Gandiv (Gandiva), I don't know about Arjun but after reading this even I am getting angry even though I have not taken any vow Yudhishthir said something like this

'I did not know that you were affectionate towards Suyodhana. Nor did I know that you feared Adhiratha’s son. You are borne on a vehicle that has been created by Tvashtra. 592 Its axles rattle. The ape sits astride your auspicious standard. You have girded a sword that is decorated with gold. Gandiva bow is as long as a palm tree. O Partha! Keshava drives you. How have you withdrawn as a result of your fear of Karna? O evil-souled one! Had you given the bow to Keshava and become his charioteer in the battle, then Keshava would have slain the fierce Karna, like the lord of the Maruts 593 bringing down Vritra with his vajra. It would have been better had you not been born in Pritha’s womb, but had been aborted in the fifth month itself. O prince! O evil-souled one! That would have been better than withdrawing from the field of battle.’” ’

Then Arjun was about to kill Yudhishthir toh Krishn stopped him and asked the reason, he told everything toh he narrated the story of Kausika, matlab basically he told ki don't hold on to such vows, tthen he told Arjun to say harsh words to Yudhishthir as uttering harsh to your elders is equal to their death.

Then Arjun said something like this to Yudhishthir

I don't know what to say, it felt as if Krishna is saying ki "dost yahi mauka hai, nikal le apni bhadas, aaj mauka bhi hai, tera dharm bhi nahi tootega aur tere man ki bhadas bhi nikal jaegi"

I am imagining Arjun closing his eyes and thinking about all that happened and then

‘Sanjaya said, “Having been thus addressed by Janardana, Partha applauded what his well-wisher had told him. And Arjuna used harsh words towards Dharmaraja, the likes of which he had never spoken earlier. ‘O king! You604 should not censure me about having withdrawn, since you have yourself been stationed more than one krosha away from the battle. You should not censure Bhima either. He is fighting with the foremost of the warriors. At this time, he has been afflicted by the enemies in the battle and has slain brave kings. He has killed more than one thousand elephants, emitting fierce roars like a lion. The brave one has performed an extremely difficult deed. You605 have never done anything like this.

O descendant of the Bharata lineage! You are cruel and your strength is in speech. You think that I am also like you. I have always sought to act for your benefit, with my wives, sons and with my own life and soul. And you have struck a person like me with the arrows of your words. Therefore, we will never be able to obtain any happiness from you. I have killed maharathas for your sake. But you lie down on Droupadi’s bed and slight me. O descendant of the Bharata lineage! You are suspicious and cruel. Therefore, we will never be able to know any happiness through you. O lord among men! He 608 was always devoted to the truth and in the battle, for the sake of your welfare, himself told you about the means of his death. Protected by me, Drupada’s great-souled and brave son, Shikhandi, killed him. Since you are addicted to the vice of gambling, I am not delighted at the prospect of your winning back the kingdom. There are many sins associated with gambling and it is against dharma. You heard Sahadeva recount them. 609 But you have always been addicted to that practice of wicked ones and that is the reason all of us have been reduced to this hardship. O Indra among kings! It was because of your gambling that the kingdom was lost and our difficulties are due to you. O king! O unfortunate one! Therefore, do not anger us by using these cruel words against us again.’

Originally posted by: wayward

May be he knew because Ved Vyas has not written their personal conversations if he would have written then it would have been even more longer already Mahabharat is very big

but if they were friends then in friendship toh we don't think before asking anything from each other naa?

accha and Krishna was shy? where did this come from?

and Sambh had AIDS? Really? Then how he was cured, till today I don't think there is any cure for AIDS, was the medical science even more advanced than today?

accha did Radha exist? I mean in MB there is no mention of Radha, in HV there is no mention of Radha, I am not sure about SB but I have heard that it is only mentioned that there was a gopi who was his favorite and nothing else.

and one more thing, Krishna was so small that how people could think about him in that way? even if Radha existed then also she was elder and was already married, so how can she think of a child who was just 7-8 years if we o by northern versions then Radha was elder, if we look at the Southern texts then there was no Radha, however some texts in Southern India say that Krishna was married to a girl when he was 7-8, it is quite possible because in those days children were married off earlier, but an elder women thinking about a kid in that way, is it possible?

Originally posted by: wayward

OK now I think Yamraj will make my pakora in hellfire after I will ask this question and even if Yamraj will leave me then someone on this forum will do that for sure but still I think I should ask this

**no offence to anyone, till this second I don't hate Yudi, but I want to know so many things related to his actions, but it is also true that till today (this second) I don't like him as well, I am on a thin boarder line of liking and disliking for him.

Was Yudhishthir really a Dharmraj? What he did, yes, he ws very knowledgable, yes he knew so many things, but the question is that could he look outside of books? What he did, first Draupadi was divided, again no one said anything neither Draupadi nor Arjun (although Arjun said all that on the 17th day) but still on that day no one said, so I don't know what they were thinking

However, I get that, but what after that, he gambled everything, I am sorry to say this but what did he do to earn that city? his brothers gave each drop of their sweat and blood for Indraprast but he gambled everything in just one go, then he gambled his brother, then Dharmraj gambled himself and then he gambled their wife who was not only his wife, even if she would have been just his wife then also he cannot gamble a human, its not about male and female but its about human, how can he gamble a human?

I don't know whether that dice game happened 2 times or 1 time but if it really happened twice and still he went for that game for the 2nd time then isn't it really shameful? What he thought?

OK even after that when they went for exile then also he just kept asking Arjun for more and more weapons as you said in your above post, then what he did? He had Nakul and Sahdev, Bhim also did earn some blessings and weapons (weapons kaa I am not sure) Nakul and Sahdev gained more medical knowledge but what he did? He said that he was doing penance, but wasn't everyone doing that? OK protection of Draupadi was also there so he waited there, I understood, but everyone except Arjun returned before 13th year, in fact 4-5 years before 13th year, then why did he not go to do something on his own?

Even Ram was elder, but the amount of hardwork he did was amazing, yes, even he was supported by Lord Hanuman

and so many others but still, at least he did something on his own, here what he was doing? and on top of that he was never satisfied with Arjun, why?

He said that he loved Bhim and he wanted to revive Nakul from dead so I assume (only I am assuming I am not sure) that he loved Nakul as well, but then also he expected so much from Arjun? Did he not realize that after he decide to that Draupadi should marry all 5 and if it would have been any other brother then he would have been revolted against Yudishthir, considering Arjun's strength he would have moved easily to some other place taking Draupadi and no one could even stop him, but he remained silent for God knows what reason for which the poor man is still blamed, I know that was wrong but I still feel bad for Arjun even after seeing that he was quiet, vaise even Draupadi was silent. But here the point is not that the marriage was wrong or right, but my point is that Arjun could have said no and no one could even object to that.

he always supported Yudi but what all things Yudi said on 17th day was unbelievable, he literally said that he could have been aborted in the 5th month, this is disgusting to the core Only after that Arjun said all those things.

and on the final day he literally told duryodhan to choose any of the 5 brothers for dual, what was he thinking? What if he would have chosen Nakul or Sahdev or even in that case Arjun as I don't know how much mace fighting Arjun knew as but this is mentioned that dury was an excellent mace fighter which I am not sure Arjun was or notthen, but what would have happened then? Leave everything but what if he would have chosen Yudi himself, kya karte vo phir?

on the final day he finally managed to piss Krishna off and he really got angry.

accha btw Krishna blamed Yudi for that dice game here and there matlab in direct and indirect manner but I could not find Krishna anywhere blaming remaining 4 pandavs for the same incident? why? Was there any reason for doing that?

Originally posted by: wayward

Accha what do you think about Indonesian Mahabharat? How much can be true? so that's why I am asking, what's your opinion?

actually I am writing everything in a separate post as it will become veryyyyyy big.

Originally posted by: wayward

hey, I saw a question on quora (I hope we can take name of the website)

I am pasting the question and the answer here, would like to know your opinion, howmuch you agree and what can/cannot be true

warning: the Answer is big, actually not big its huge, I myself have not read the entire thing.

so the question was

Q. In the age of Mahabharata, if everyone knew Krishna was the incarnation of God himself, why were the Kauravas not afraid of him? Why is Dhuryodhana so eager to fight with him?

Ans

Because Godhood was attributed to him long after the compilation of the story. The texts such as Harivamsa and Bhagavata Purana which were compiled much later elevated Krishna to God's status. The story of Mahabharata by itself makes complete sense for Duryodhana to fight his cousins.

Let’s try to understand events before the setting of the Mahabharata and motivations behind them without bringing any divinity aspect, which is emphasized in later Puranas, into the analysis.

Krishna was born in the Yadava clan concentrated in and around the kingdom of Surasena. By the time of his birth, Surasena was ruled by his uncle Kamsa who was closely allied with Jarasandha of Magadha.

main-qimg-98e0eee65c6d4c9e281d…

By the time of Krishna’s birth, it’s apparent that there were two main power blocs

1. Western bloc with Kuru as the main power centre allied with Trigarta, Madra, Kekaya, Sindhu, Gandhara, Kamboja, Bahlika. Panchala was to some extent leaned towards Kuru at that time. Avanti was also allied with Kuru. Vinda and Anuvinda, princes of Avanti, wanted a strong relationship with Kuru. They didn’t like Krishna marrying their sister Mitravinda.

2. Eastern bloc with Magadha as the main power centre allied with Chedi (Sisupala), Vanga, Prajyotisha (Bhagadatta), Karusha (Dantavakra), Surasena (under Kamsa)

These two power blocs do not seem to be in any serious rivalry to expand. They were more interested in maintaining their existing power structure.

Kamsa, the king of Surasena, married two daughters of Jarasandha, the king of Magadha. He imprisoned his sister Devaki and her husband Vasudeva. To end the suffering of his parents, Krishna had to kill Kamsa with the support of Balarama. By killing Kamsa and reinstating Ugrasena as the king, Krishna practically alienated the new power structure of Surasena from Eastern bloc dominated by Magadha. Upon the death of Kamsa, Jarsandha repeatedly attacked Yadavas.

Having alienated from Eastern bloc, Surasena couldn’t find any reliable ally from Western bloc too. Even though Kunti was married to Pandu of the Kuru kingdom, he was no longer in power. His brother Dhritarashtra was the king at that time.

Unable to withstand attacks from Jarasandha, without support from any of the major powers of either bloc, Krishna found it prudent to retreat from Surasena and establish their kingdom in Dwaraka. Yadavas started living peacefully again. However, deep inside, Krishna was probably waiting for an opportunity to bring the downfall of Jarasandha and claim back Surasena.

And he did find such opportunity in the family feud of Kuru princes, Pandavas, and Kauravas

Contrary to popular belief, the first serious interaction of Krishna with Pandavas was during swayamavara of Draupadi.

Arjuna, in the guise of a brahmin, wins the contest and hand of Draupadi. The assembled kings desired to kill Arjuna. However, Arjuna and Bhima defeated all the assembled kings. With the defeat of Karna and Shalya, the kings accept their defeat.

Krishna was silently observing the entire episode with his brother Balarama. He noticed the unmatched prowess of Bhima and Arjuna. He also understood the legitimacy of Yudhisthira’s claim to the throne of Kuru. Remembering his relationship with Pandavas through his aunt Kunti, Krishna realized that through Pandavas, he could find two strong reliable allies in Kuru and Panchala.

However, he still didn’t commit to any serious political alliance and waited for Yudhisthira to ascend the throne of Kuru. Meanwhile, in an unexpected turn of events, the kingdom of Kuru was split into two parts. Kauravas continued to rule from Hastinapura. Pandavas made Indraprastha their capital and began to rule the other half.

The split of the Kuru kingdom made work of Krishna easier. All the old alliances of the Kuru kingdom continued with Hastinapura ruled by Duryodhana. The newly formed Indraprastha was equally desperate as Krishna for allies and power consolidation. Under these circumstances, Krishna ensured Arjuna marries his sister Subhadra against the wishes of his brother Balarama.

With the marriage of Arjuna and Subhadra, Krishna secured his ties with Indraprastha and Panchala.

Duryodhana observed the new alliance of Yadavas-Pandavas-Panchalas but maybe he was not too worried at the time considering that Panchala was already divided into two parts by Drona with one part under control of Ashwattama while Pandavas were affectionate to elders of Kuru. Thus, Duryodhana saw no real threat to his power from the new alliance.

Meanwhile, Krishna continued with his agenda. He encouraged Yudhisthira to perform the Rajasuya Yaga. He also warned Yudhisthira about how powerful Jarasandha was and how he cant perform Rajasuya as long as Jarasandha is alive. He manipulated Bhima to kill Jarasandha and appointed his son Sahadeva as king of Magadha in return for an alliance with Magadha. During Rajasuya, he killed Sisupala and ensured ties with the Chedi kingdom too by appointing Dhristaketu as the new king. The new kings of Magadha (Sahadeva) and Chedi (Dhristaketu) were allied with Pandavas.

So, by manipulating Pandavas, Krishna not only succeeded in claiming back Surasena but also destroyed the old power structure of Eastern bloc. Krishna through Pandavas effectively controlled the entire Eastern bloc now. He also heavily influenced Western bloc through the soft power of Pandavas (remember that Pandavas still identified themselves with Kuru).

It was at this point that some people started viewing him as a God due to his unparalleled influence on the entire Bharatavarsha.

Duryodhana started to really worry about the meteoric rise of Pandavas and also the emergence of Krishna as a kingmaker.

The real reason behind Duryodhana resorting to gambling to win over Pandavas was this increased military might of Pandavas. Duryodhana realized that he was too late in preventing Pandavas from acquiring so many strong allies. Adding to the military strength of Pandavas, Duryodhana was also worried about Vidura who seemed to be carrying out propaganda and espionage in favor of Pandavas. He felt he had no option but to eliminate Pandavas by hook or crook. He won the gambling match and exiled Pandavas to a forest and hoped to eliminate Pandavas in the forest when they are not supported by anyone.

Meanwhile, Pandavas completed their exile and emerged strong with one more strong ally in the form of the Matsya kingdom.

At this point, Duryodhana realized that the war with Pandavas was inevitable as he had no other choice. But, maybe he was still ready for peace negotiations with Pandavas. Yudhisthira too was ready for peace with his cousins.

However, Krishna realized that peace is not in his best interests. He rightly guessed that the episode of Draupadi’s humiliation would rejuvenate the Pandavas army while the kings allied with Duryodhana may not fight at their full potential due to their sense of guilt for wronging Pandavas. He capitalized on these circumstances during his visit for peace talks with Duryodhana. Instead of genuinely trying for peace, he repeatedly provoked Duryodhana while at the same time made other kings feel guilty for siding with Duryodhana.

In short, he ensured there was no scope for peace and made war inevitable. He also succeeded in creating a hostile environment among the allies of Duryodhana.

In the Kurukshetra war, he employed sophisticated philosophical and psychological methods to prepare Arjuna to fight with the people most dear to him viz. Bhishma, Drona, Kripa, Ashwattama, Bahlika, Somadatta, Shalya, Bhurishrava.

He used the death of Abhimanyu to fuel the rage of Arjuna in the war.

He ensured his dear friend Satyaki lived by manipulating Arjuna to cut off the hands of Bhurishrava.

Even after the war, he ensured his dear friend Satyaki survived the onslaught of Ashwattama by taking him out of the camp along with Pandavas.

He provoked Pandavas to punish Ashwattama for the massacre on the night of the 18th day of war but somehow he never found any fault with his fellow Yadava Kritavarma who was equally responsible.

By the end of the Kurukshetra war, Pandavas lost everyone dear to them…father, grandfathers, teachers, brothers, friends…everyone. Only Parikshit, the son of Abhimanyu survived to continue the line of Pandavas. Remember who was Abhimanyu? son of Krishna’s sister Subhadra.

Now, what did Krishna lose in the war? Nothing. His brother Balarama, his sons, his best friends….all of them were safe. Even the prominent ones who participated in the Kurukshetra war, Satyaki and Kritavarma, survived. They happily lived for 36 years, at least, after the war.

Krishna succeeded in consolidating the political power across the Bharatavarsha without sacrificing anyone dear to him.

Krishna was a genius and a rare political mastermind. Could anyone imagine a child born in prison without any support will eventually establish a new political order on such a grand scale?

Edit 1: There are questions about Krishna’s army fighting on behalf of Duryodhana. Let’s see the composition of 11 akshounis of Duryodhana army as per the epic.

1 akshouni each from

1. Bhagadatta of Prajyotisha

2. Bhurishrava of Bahlika

3. Shalya of Madra

4. Kritavarma of Andhaka clan of Yadavas

5. Jayadratha of Sindhu

6. Sudakshina of Kambhoja

7. Nila of Mahishmati

8. Vinda and Anuvinda of Avanti

9. Kekaya brothers

Shakuni of Gandhara, Brihadbala of Kosala, Susharma of Trigarta, Kalinga’s army and Kuru’s own army made up remaining 2 akshounis.

Among the above divisions, it is believed that the army brought by Kritavarma is Krishna’s army and Kritavarma was a commander of that army. But, this doesn’t appear to be authentic. Duryodhana visited Kritavarma for help just as he visited Krishna. Kritavarma committed his 1 akshouni to Duryodhana. His decision was independent of Krishna’s decision. So was the decision of Satyaki to side with Pandavas. Krishna had no influence on their decisions. Also, Kritavarma was not a mere commander. He was the leader of one of the prominent Yadava clans called Andhakas. So, if Kritavarma’s army is not the Narayani sena then which among other 10 divisions consisted of Krishna’s army? The answer is none. Krishna’s army never fought for Duryodhana.

Also, the marriage proposal between Subhadra and Duryodhana was never mentioned. It is based on folklore. Even if we assume hypothetically that such proposal was in place, will Duryodhana and Kuru army fight with Jarasandha for Krishna’s sake? I don’t think so. Pandavas were the most affectionate ones to Krishna owing to their close relationship through Kunti.

Originally posted by: wayward

Then someone said that

While this is a great interpretation. This will still be not possible without powers mentioned whether it is Krishna or pandavas. There is no way you can frighten almost everyone at the svayamvara and there is no way Krishna would live after being born in a prison and it is nearly impossible for him to survive till his teens. Krishna’s whole life would be considences which makes this answer totally foolish. As per spirituality I’m not saying there is God but at the same time want to inform you, you are not intelligent enough to ridicule possibility of supreme beings we can't even reach our neighbouring planets and there's a vast unknown sized universe (or multi universe). Krishna can be the smartest person but without supreme strength he wouldn't survive the threats he faced and pandavas (without considering they're sons of God's) are just another five guys who can fight well which means in an open war an arrow from a solider will end them considering they battled for 18 days. And importantly Krishna if powerless would have never known that ashavatama is going to kill young pandavas to save his frnd . This total view makes Krishna an evil intelligent considering he let young pandavas to die so his selected hier would rule, pandavas could have sensed this at least someone would have and considering how powerful they are they would've simply finished Krishna along with his kingdom (you just can't act your whole life deceiving others no matter how intelligent you are vileness is always spotted )If considering writers hyped Krishna’s character and made him look like a God this whole story is worth nothing considering writers could have just made up everything which makes your political view of story senseless, we can't say our favourable points of story are the one’s made up( as you said in comments) and rest are authentically written.

Reply

Appreciate your views

(i) I actually agree that the entire life of Krishna in the story is a consequence of lucky coincidences. We do find such people in real life too with far more unbelievable coincidences. For example, let’s take one of the most familiar names to Indian Cricket fans, MS Dhoni. The legendary captaincy brilliance of Dhoni in ICC tournaments is attributable to a large extent to luck/coincidence (A capable batsman such as Misbah faltering against mediocre Joginder Sharma in the 2007 T20 world cup, Morgan and Bopara throwing away their wickets to super expensive Ishant Sharma in 2013 Champions Trophy final, etc.). Dhoni would have been fired for such terrible decisions. But, he is hailed as the captain born to win ICC tournaments for India. In the hindsight, people mistake such flukes as brilliant tactics and discount the role of luck.

(ii) Yes, it was perfectly possible for Krishna and Pandavas to die within 18 days. But, they did survive (due to a combination of luck/skill/coincidence), and hence the legend is written about their invincibility which was further exaggerated by later authors (there are more than 1,200 versions of Mahabharat (with some variations) as per BORI. So, which one is perfect?)

(iii) The swayamvara fight was not a group attack. It’s a series of one on one fights with decisive battles between Arjuna vs Karna and Bhima vs Shalya. The defeat of Karna and Shalya (arguably best among the warriors present in swayamvara) was a signal to other kings about the superior skill of Arjuna and Bhima

(iv) I am not dismissing the possibility of a supreme force behind the universe. I am only against the fanatic view that this supreme force exhibits human traits and it demands our worship/submission. There is no demonstrative evidence to support this view. And lack of such evidence renders such views as just faith and the world is full of such diverse faiths (especially from the middle east deserts) which can be used to brainwash gullible people for malicious purposes

(v) Regarding Ashwattama’s attack, it’s reasonable to anticipate some kind of retaliation from surviving Kauravas. I didn’t say Krishna knew what exactly was going to happen. Since Pandavas and himself are not in the camp, he ensured his friend Satyaki is also along with them to ensure his safety. Why Dhrishtadyumna, Pandavas’ sons, and other Panchalas who were much closer to Pandavas than Satyaki didn’t follow them? And why Kritavarma was not punished? No explanation

(vi) Yes, Krishna was an evil intelligent person but was a necessary evil for Pandavas to overcome their pathetic condition

Further, I have written this political answer with the assumption that the core story was some actual event in the distant past. It is highly likely (almost 100%) that the whole story and its characters are pure fiction. This answer is to highlight the selfish/dark human traits of the so-called supreme force even in a well-crafted fictional story.

Another question

Your answer gives a different perspective to look at all the events mentioned in Mahabharata. However, I would like to know how you see the following incidents

1. Why was Duryodhanas not able to capture Krishna (when krishna came as a messenger of peace from Pandavas side)

2. Draupadi vastraharan incident?

3. How was krishna able to bring back the life of the son of abhimanyu (after Aswathama attacked him with a brahmsatra)

Answer

1. The attempt of Duryodhana trying to capture Krishna itself sounds illogical. Duryodhana had a great relationship with Balarama. Balarama was extremely affectionate to Duryodhana. I really doubt Duryodhana would capture the brother of his beloved teacher that too when he arrived for peace talks. This part must have been a later addition to glorify Krishna

2. As I mentioned earlier, probably Duryodhana and co got carried away with an overenthusiastic victory in the dice game. We can infer that Draupadi was actually disrobed and no one saved her. Krishna saving her must have been a later addition to glorify him

3. This is simply a myth. We are not dealing in our analysis with some supernatural weapons which somehow only target wombs but not kill mothers. Again, this is clearly a later addition to glorify Krishna. Parikshit was never killed

Another question

So why his narayani sena fought against pandavas in kurukshetra

Reply

You could see it as a backup plan you know

Even if the Pandavas were defeated Krishna could maintain good relations with Kauravas and make them feel indebt to him for lending them his army

@wayward

Hey I am sorry to ask so many questions, Actually now I realized that I am taking out questions out of your replies but what to do, I wanted to ask so many things, even yesterday I asked at least 4-5 questions and that too itne bade bade posts karke but now you are the only one who is replying so asking.

Have you watched BR Mahabharat? I think almost everyone has watched, so which one did you like, I mean BR was more authentic so facts ke according toh yes BR has + points, but what all things you did not like in BR and what all things you liked. Same with starplus wala MB, what all things you did not like and what all things you liked

May be he knew because Ved Vyas

Yeah, Vyasa has not written about their personal lives/emotions very much, more just the big events and facts.

accha and Krishna was shy?

Shy, as in not this

https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYmFlNWZ6N3A1aDcxaDdqZzgwbHo5Nnp1aW4yNG95amtwN2k4ZHlobSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/l2YWnhW0jFTUs3i7u/giphy.gif

Rather, I meant he was reserved. Like, he didn't usually go up to just chat with people, or like, he didn't really like talking about himself.

and Sambh had AIDS?

No one really knows man. Poora Dury+100 ka birth, Balaram's birth, Shikhandi's transition etc, there are a lot of unclear parts regarding the level of science. Maybe, they had something or maybe it was some other s t d and not a i d s.

accha did Radha exist?

Radha, as far as I know, her earliest explicit purana mention is in Brahma-Vaivarta purana. Apart from that, the earliest works involving her are Nibarkacharya's works, Vallabhacharya's works and Jayadeva's Geeta Govindam (this shot this couple to fame, leading to their eventual deification together, although the book was very much criticized when it was written and I think banned also for some time). This is all around 12-13th Century. SB hinted at that special gopi who later evolved into Radha, but that doesn't guarantee they're the same person. I personally love this character that I believe developed as a response to the conservative patriarchal society.

So, you see this outspoken, dissatisfied, married, young woman, who takes the young Krishna as her lover. She isn't afraid of the society, and her husband, or family; she carves out for herself a small piece of freedom in her mostly mundane life. I would personally go as far as to call her Krishna's first guru. She teaches him the ways of love and life, and is the driving force in their relationship (the dehi pada-pallavam-udaaram stanza you can check). He was young, and Radha was his first love...I think that went a long way to mold him into the revolutionary that he became. As for the kalankini epithet is considered, that was the result of a long-standing smear campaign against Radha, led by the more conservative factions of the society. Only later, did poets reclaim the 'insult', and made it into an inside joke between Radha-Krishna, making them point and laugh at the people who tried to get rid of her. Love that!

I am also adding a small bit that I had written on Radha earlier.

Jayadeva notes a more rugged form of Krishna, one that is almost hungry for love. His Radha smiles down upon Radharaman Dutta's kalankini. Of course, she would accept even infamy if it was in relation to her Krishna. However, in time, this epithet has been reclaimed as a celebration of the meteoric, tempestuous love that this unseemly duo had carved out for themselves of the pages of a mostly unwilling history.

Tagore's Krishna is mysterious, eagerly anticipated but rarely seen. Rather, here Radha's pining is crushing and all-encompassing, inherited from Chandidas' virahini. Radha's guttural desire to transform Krishna into herself, subjecting him to the same suffering that she undergoes as a woman in love with a furious ideology more than a man, reverberates eerily against the lighthearted cross-dressing tale of Surdas'.

and one more thing, Krishna was so small that how people could think about him in that way?

See, Radha is a product of Bengal only. So, child marriage (from bride's side) was the norm back then. So, even though Radha was Krishna's aunt by marriage and older than him, I don't think she was that old that the relationship would be inappropriate. Mostly, in Geeta Govindam etc, Krishna himself is imagined to be around 17-18 only, so I feel that's okay.

Southern texts, I am not that much familiar, so I am not sure, maybe @BA can help?

Originally posted by: IWasHareeshFan

Was Yudhishthir really a Dharmraj?

Wow, Seemanti di would've loved to be part of this convo!

I'll just say from what my interpretation is, given Yudi isn't my expertise.

One thing is that yes, Yudi was very bookish. Whatever he did, if you go by the law-books only, then Yudi wasn't technically wrong. Everything he did was permitted by the international law back then. That's the crux of MB right, that was what Krishna and all were fighting for...to change what was considered acceptable. Yudi followed the constitution blindly, and Krishna argued that they should change the constitution only.

Which is also why Draupadi's questions during the dice game were so important. Even then, she knew, morality argue karke there's no faida, yeh sab ke sab nalayak hai waise bhi. So she's doubles down on the legal technicality...did Yudi lose himself first or Draupadi, and if he lost himself first, what right did he have to stake Draupadi, since slaves weren't allowed to have wives. But then, there's one other nautanki, that women were considered the husband's property, so if Yudi lost all his 'wealth', he technically lost Draupadi then itself. So if Draupadi argued if he had already lost her, then the last round of dice wasn't valid only, then also it didn't help her with getting Dushshan off of her.

However, I get that, but what after that, he gambled everything,

Again, it was despicable, but legal. If you ask why Yudi deserved the throne however, I would point out Drona's bird-eye test. Arjun succeeded in what Drona was looking for, but Yudi's performance revealed a lot about him as a young prince. When Drona asked Yudi what he sees, he replied that he sees everything from the topmost leaf to the ant at the root. So, he is observant, and that is an important quality in a monarch, who intends to keep his ministers and administration in line. Also, Yudi is extremely well-versed in the law, and he is fair. He doesn't go into whether the law itself is fair or not, but if something is written there, he will see to it that it is enforced. No matter however much the other brothers fought for the land, among them only Yudi was impartial enough to be the kind of King their kingdom needed.

I don't know whether that dice game happened

It happened two times. I feel like there was a political pressure right, because the invitation both times officially came from Dhritarashtra, not Duryodhana. So, king-to-king Yudi was under he obligatino to accept. If he didn't accept, then all the other kings would say ki deko budhhe uncle itne pyar se bulaya phir bhi mana kar diya ungrateful ladke ne. Then, they'll be much more unwilling to cooperate with Indraprastha, resulting in a bunch of useless wars.

Yudi knew exactly what trap he was walking into, he just chose to ignore the warning signs for the greater good (and he didn't expect that it would go that bad, till Draupadi ka basically, he was also relying on Bhishma/Drona/Vidura/someone to keep Dury in check). Obviously, the gambling part was terribly wrong, but bande ka initial intention galat nahi tha.

OK even after that when they went for exile

He learnt to play dice properly. Also, they weren't alone there, they had a whole baraat-sized entourage of servants and brahmins following them everywhere right. He was basically managing the whole party. Not everyone has to be a big, splashy warrior right, someone has to also just slow down and ensure everyone was eating and sleeping and resting...Yudi was doing that.

As for the pushing is considered, Yudi was worried right, it just came out in a kinda toxic way. Yudi was naive, not foolish. Even though, he hoped he could avoid the war, in his heart he knew it was coming, and he knew it would be devastating, the biggest war anyone had ever seen. He just wanted his brothers to come out of it alive.

He said that he loved Bhim and he wanted to revive

Arjun is not blameless here though, when the question came, he went basically, "Yudi isn't married so I won't marry also?" I mean what was he expecting, Yudi spawns a wife out of thin air then and there?! Yaar, shaadi ka socha nahi tha toh challenge karne ko kisne bola tha. I'd said right, isko dhanush-baan pakda do, phir bande ko na dikhta hai na soojhta hai aur kuch. Shadi nahi kar sakta yeh pehle sochna tha na! Nahi, hum toh bandi ko mandap pe almost bitha ke phir sochenge! Bhai, machli chaiye thi, toh baan nadi mein chala deta, Draupadi ka future dao par lagane ki kya zaroorat thi?!

Draupadi was silent probably from the shock of yeh kis family mein phas gayi main. Arjun was silent because subah se woh jitni bar muh khola, situation at least 50% aur complicated ho gayi, so usne bolna hi band kar diya, ki yaar tumlog hi dekh lo decide ho jaye to bata dena bas.

he always supported Yudi but what all things Yudi said

Yeh khali-pili ki heropanti thi bas aur kuch nahi.

And Arjun+Mace fight not very much. Krishna tried a similar thing once with Jarasandha right, Arjun bechara was soo relieved when he didn't get picked to wrestle, and a bit annoyed with Krishna for leaving the possibility open.

accha btw Krishna blamed Yudi for that dice game

Yudi created the whole thing himself right, why will he blame the brothers? They were protesting also right, on and off? Also, they got gambled away too, if Draupadi hadn't saved them, they would've ended up as slaves only. They were victims, jsut like Drau.