Saif : " we will justify abduction of Sita and war with ram" - Page 15

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

And? Eklavya was still an enemy prince. Hastinapuri couldn't let him steal secrets. You seem to imagine MBh as some sort of teen drama on TV. These were kingdoms battling for supremacy. Lives were at stake. You really think Drona cut off the thumb of a prince allied to Jarasandha to please a boy? You don't imagine Jarasandha would've attacked if it weren't justified?

Most of KMG is available online. Do some reading first.

Irony, I am strictly sticking to what's written in the Mbh, whilst you are writing fan fiction, and you accuse me of imagining Mbh as "some sort of teen drama on TV". 🤣

It says it right there!.... here more evidence from Drona Parva that Drona got Eklavya's thumb cut for of Arjuna.

Krishna to Arjuna:

O best of men! for thy good, the Nishada's son also, of prowess incapable of being baffled, was, by an act of guile, deprived of his thumb by Drona, assuming the position of his preceptor. Proud and endued with steady prowess, the Nishada's son, with fingers cased in leathern gloves, looked resplendent like a second Rama. Undeprived of thumb, Ekalavya, O Partha, was incapable of being vanquished in battle by the gods, the Danavas, the Rakshasas, and the Uragas (together). Of firm grasp, accomplished in weapons, and capable of shooting incessantly day and night, he was incapable of being looked at by mere men.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07178.htmhttps://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07178.htm

People on this thread who said Karna has been turned into a Hero, can you please explain or link me to a credible source that explains why. Thanks

Originally posted by: .Lonewalker.

Seeing Saifu's comment about justifying Ravana, I was reminded of another such character who get whitewashed & glorified on a regular basis by modern writers & Indian tv show makers. I commented on that & since then this thread turned into a Mahabharata thread 🙈

Sorry😳

Dont aplogize. For once a thread in this forum has been very interesting.

The quality of arguments and essays here match Saif's intellect in making this statement.

People think they're oh so novel by bringing in parallels that have already been made before, by the likes of Imtiaz Ali no less.

Drona had Eklavya cut his thumb to pacify Arjuna's jealous fit. Arjuna could not stand another being a better archer than him and Drona had promised Arjuna that he would be the best. That is an undeniable fact in every version of Mahabharata.

Now whether it was caste-based violence, motivated by protecting intel, or pure jealousy is open to the reader's interpretation.

Making Eklavya a spy is an interesting interpretation. It makes Drona less harsh and Arjuna less petulant. But I feel, it really goes against every popular narrative of Eklavya as the ideal student - one who excelled against all odds through sheer dedication, practice, and devotion.

Originally posted by: Chameli_billi

People on this thread who said Karna has been turned into a Hero, can you please explain or link me to a credible source that explains why. Thanks

Well if you see any modern day adaptation of Mahabharata then one thing that one finds common in them is the way karna is presented as some great human being who was forced to do duryodhan s bidding and was otherwise a very kind man who everyone was cruel to which is utter nonsense. All his crimes are transferred to duryodhan and shakuni

Here i will give you example from BORI s translation of Mahabharata which as of now is most authentic one you can get Let s stick with respect to one character and about rest you can download the entire volume on an app called - anybook anyday and read it up.sounds good?

Drapaudi. With drapaudi there are two famous interaction that karna has one at her Swamyvaar and other at the dice hall

1) let s start with the Swamyvaar. What is the popular story about this?? That drapaudi rejected karna on basis of his caste. Well the most authentic text bluntly says that he fail to string the bow here -

“O Brahmanas! If Kshatriyas like Karna and Shalya, who are famous in the world, have great strength and are well versed in Dhanur Veda,22 could not string the bow, how can this weakling Brahmana, with no knowledge of weapons, succeed?

BoRI Drapaudi swamyvaar parva.

2) Lets talk about dice hall now everyone know about this game of dice everyone knows what happened in broad strokes but do we really know what the actual text says?? Do producers writers director follow it properly?? No absolutely not

Let see karna s role in dice hall now shall we -

A) On seeing Krishna look at her miserable husbands, Duhshasana dragged her with even greater force, so that she almost lost her senses. He repeatedly called her “slave” and laughed uproariously. Karna was delighted at these words and approved of them by laughing out

Vyasa clearly describes karna as laughing and delighted at someone s misery and humiliation

B)" It has been ordained by the gods that a woman should only have one husband. However, she submits to many and it is therefore certain that she is a courtesan.It is my view that there is nothing surprising in her being brought into the sabha in a single garment, or even if she is naked.

Karna calls her a coutesan

C) "In accordance with dharma, Soubala has won all the riches the Pandavas possessed, including her and themselves. O Duhshasana! This Vikarna is only a child, though he speaks words of wisdom. Strip away the garments from the Pandavas and Droupadi.”

He gives the idea of disrobing.

Tell me is there any show fictional novel play drama actually shows these parts of karna no??

Instead they all these on duryodhan amd shakuni while karna plays the poor he.

You can ofcourse always refer to kmg s translation which freely available online if you can't find BORI though the latter is more authentic.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

And? Eklavya was still an enemy prince. Hastinapuri couldn't let him steal secrets. You seem to imagine MBh as some sort of teen drama on TV. These were kingdoms battling for supremacy. Lives were at stake. You really think Drona cut off the thumb of a prince allied to Jarasandha to please a boy? You don't imagine Jarasandha would've attacked if it weren't justified?

Most of KMG is available online. Do some reading first.

LMAO. Each and every thing you said had been refuted. The text you quoted explicitly mentions him as low-born. It also explicitly mentions that Arjuna went crying to his professor because he would now be lesser.

Bold: That's YOUR interpretation. Does not change the facts. If Drona intended to safeguard secrets then why mention Eklavya's caste at all? And why did Drona mention caste as the reason for rejecting him? Why not mention the "real" reason? The text has an EMPHASIS on the caste and low-born angle. This makes the intention of the text doubly clear. If Drona was so worried about military secrets, then that would've been the focus of the text. Simple common sense.

No, and I repeat NONE of the revered scholars who research Mahabharat have ever come out with such an interpretation of the story. NONE. Generations of people have grown up viewing this as a story of caste injustice. Because there is no space to interpret this otherwise since the caste angle is mentioned in the Mahabharat itself. This is either the propaganda of some caste supremacist group or some random person on Quora or maybe IF. Don't believe whatever theory you read online, use your own logic and common sense. It's clear that you haven't even read the links you furnished, because nobody, NOBODY would think that caste wasn't an angle at all here after reading whatever was written. Interpretation can take you far, but not when it circumvents everything written in the original text.

You're hell-bent on painting Dronacharya a some sort of anti-espionage activist.  If this isn't whitewashing then I don't know what is.

Originally posted by: .Lonewalker.

Are we now victimizing Eklavya over caste too? 😆 Even if his biological origin is ignored, he was still a Prince, belonged to a kingdom who had strong allies like Jarasandh

a. No way he was a caste victim. Even if he belonged to Brahman or Kshatriya race, he would have met the same fate. Him being an ally of Magadha, which was arch rival of Hastinapur sealed his fate. Not his caste.

Drona himself was a problematic character, but he was not particularly inclined towards caste supremacy. Drona had other students apart from the Kuru Princess & contrary to popular beliefs, Adhirath's adopted son Karna was one of them. If Drona did caste favouritism, he wouldn't have taken him in. Also neither Arjuna's childish jealousy towards Eklavya nor Drona's promise to make Arjuna the best archer had anything to do with it otherwise Karna wouldn't have been left with 2 perfect thumbs till the last day of his life. 😆 Drona did not have any problem with Karna because he was from Hastinapur & not from any rival kingdom.

Drona’s foremost duty was to protect Hastinapur and eliminate threats. Ekalavya was one such catastrophe waiting to happen. Even if we leave the whole "stealing knowledge" thing out, Drona could not let Eklavya roam around announcing everywhere he is Drona's student because then Drona would have been accused of treason. Without Drona committing any such thing. Drona was caught in a very tight spot there & he did his best to wiggle out of it with minimum damage imparted. Had he dragged Eklavya to Bhisma or Dhritarashtra it would have been his neck & not just a thumb. And that, also wouldn't have had anything to do with his caste.

What is this alternate Mahabharat that y'all seem to be coming up with? If Eklavya's caste was not important, then why would it be mentioned in the first place? And caste is the reason why Drona refused to teach him, it's EXPLICITLY mentioned. If "stealing state secrets" was so important, why did Drona act ONLY after Arjuna started crying?

I really want to know the source of this "Eklavya was not victim of caste crime" theory that IF-ians seem to have been brainwashed with, when GENERATIONS have grown up knowing it was a caste crime. Even the most ardent Hindu agrees Shambuk Vadh and Eklavya are instances of caste crimes.

The whitewashing theories make Z. E. R. O. sense.

Originally posted by: Chameli_billi

People on this thread who said Karna has been turned into a Hero, can you please explain or link me to a credible source that explains why. Thanks

1. The son of Suta - The false victimization begins here. Suta was third in the hierarchy of Varnas, after Brahmin and Kshatriya. The portrayal of Sutas as a low, oppressed class is totally wrong. Suta was a son of a Brahmin mother and a Kshatriya father. Karna's foster father was a royal man and a friend of Dhritarashtra. Unlike the Pandavas who were born in a forest and led a difficult life amid deadly conspiracies, Karna's life was very comfortable.

2. Drona's rejection - Unlike the popular belief, Karna wasn't rejected by Drona on caste basis. He was very much a part of the Gurukul with the Kuru princes. That's where he befriended Duryodhana and developed a sense of jealousy towards Arjuna. Once he went to Drona and expressed his desire to possess the Brahmashira weapon. This desire was obviously fueled by his jealousy. Drona, refused because Karna did not deserve the weapon.

3. Karna was Duryodhana's active co-conspirator in all the crimes the latter did. This also includes Bhima's poisoning which took place when the Kurus and Pandavas were children.

4. Draupadi did NOT insult Karna. The latter couldn't string the bow.

5. Karna is the one who verbally abused Draupadi, called her a prostitute, and ordered Dussasana to disrobe her.

6. When Pandavas and Draupadi were in forest exile, Karna suggested Duryodhana to march there to revel in their misery and to humiliate them.

However, this plan backfired when Gandharvas attacked the conspirators and Karna fled leaving his dearest friend at the mercy of the attackers. 😆

7. Karna's so-called Kavach Kundal daan was actually a TRADE. When Indra arrived in the guise of a Brahmin, Karna blatantly refused to part with his armour and ear rings without the possession of a deadly weapon in exchange. Hence, the greatest Daanveer tag is bogus.

8. Karna had a huge hand in blocking the peace talks. Even the likes of Shakuni advised Duryodhana to make peace with the Pandavas, Karna never failed in being an instigator.

9. Contrary to what TV serials show, Bheeshma didn't oust Karna from the Kuru army. It was Karna who directed insulting words towards him and swore he wouldn't step in to fight until Bheeshma is eliminated.

He even advised Duryodhana to oust Bheeshma. 🤪

In Karna Parva, Krishna calls out Karna's hypocrisy and lists his major crimes -

Sanjaya said, 'Then Vasudeva, stationed on the car, addressed Karna, saying, "By good luck it is, O son of Radha, that thou rememberest virtue! It is generally seen that they that are mean, when they sink into distress, rail at Providence but never at their own misdeeds. Thyself and Suyodhana and Duhshasana and Shakuni, the son of Subala, had caused Draupadi, clad in a single piece of raiment, to be brought into the midst of the assembly. On that occasion, O Karna, this virtue of thine did not manifest itself. When at the assembly Shakuni, an adept in dice, vanquished Kunti's son Yudhishthira who was unacquainted with it, whither had this virtue of thine gone? When the Kuru king (Duryodhana), acting under thy counsels, treated Bhimasena in that way with the aid of snakes and poisoned food, whither had this virtue of thine then gone? When the period of exile into the woods was over as also the thirteenth year, thou didst not make over to the Pandavas their kingdom. Whither had this virtue of thine then gone? Thou didst set fire to the house of lac at Varanavata for burning to death the sleeping Pandavas. Whither then, O son of Radha, had this virtue of thine gone? Thou laughedest at Krishna while she stood in the midst of the assembly, scantily dressed because in her season and obedient to Duhshasana's will, whither, then, O Karna, had this virtue of thine gone? When from the apartment reserved for the females innocent Krishna was dragged, thou didst not interfere. Whither, O son of Radha, had this virtue of thine gone? Thyself addressing the princess Draupadi, that lady whose tread is as dignified as that of the elephant, in these words, viz., 'The Pandavas, O Krishna, are lost. They have sunk into eternal hell. Do thou choose another husband!' thou lookedest on the scene with delight. Whither then, O Karna, had this virtue of thine gone? Covetous of kingdom and relying on the ruler of the Gandharvas, thou summonedest the Pandavas (to a match of dice). Whither then had this virtue of thine gone? When many mighty car-warriors, encompassing the boy Abhimanyu in battle, slew him, whither had this virtue of thine then gone? If this virtue that thou now invokest was nowhere on those occasions, what is the use then of parching thy palate now, by uttering that word? Thou art now for the practice of virtue, O Suta, but thou shalt not escape with life.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08091.htm

I remember once in Karn Sangini forum there was some discussion going on about Karna vs Arjuna. When someone quoted authentic sources proving how Karna was anything but a hero to a Karna fanboy, he went on saying that he wouldn't believe what is written in the texts but would believe the stories and serials that depicted the greatness of Karna🤣That is the amount of brainwashing that goes into making one believe that Karna is the hero🤣 Karna fans even call Sri Krishna as the villain. Seems like Ravana is the next one in the line.