Saif : " we will justify abduction of Sita and war with ram" - Page 14

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Fact 5 - Arjuna went to Drona to inform him. Appropriately! 😆 Arjuna was a prince of the kingdom. It was the responsible thing to do. He didn't complain. He reported. There is a difference.

Fact 5 updated - Arjun went crying to Drona, complaining to Drona and reminding of the promise he made to him, that Drona was going to make him the best archer in the world.

Excerpt from that very same link - https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01135.htm

"Vaisampayana continued, 'The Pandavas then, having made themselves acquainted with everything connected with him, returned (to the city), and going unto Drona, told him of that wonderful feat of archery which they had witnessed in the woods. Arjuna, in particular, thinking all the while, O king, Ekalavya, saw Drona in private and relying upon his preceptor's affection for him, said, 'Thou hadst lovingly told me, clasping me, to thy bosom, that no pupil of thine should be equal to me. Why then is there a pupil of thine, the mighty son of the Nishada king, superior to me?"

"Vaisampayana continued, 'Hearing these cruel words of Drona, who had asked of him his thumb as tuition-fee, Ekalavya, ever devoted to truth and desirous also of keeping his promise, with a cheerful face and an unafflicted heart cut off without ado his thumb, and gave it unto Drona. After this, when the Nishada prince began once more to shoot with the help of his remaining fingers, he found, O king, that he had lost his former lightness of hand. And at this Arjuna became happy, the fever (of jealousy) having left him.

🤣

Originally posted by: Heisenberg17_

Let's go through the link you provided....

And hearing reports of his skill, kings and princes, desirous of learning the science of arms, flocked to Drona by thousands. Amongst those that came there, O monarch, was a prince named Ekalavya, who was the son of Hiranyadhanus, king of the Nishadas (the lowest of the mixed orders). Drona, however, cognisant of all rules of morality, accepted not the prince as his pupil in archery, seeing that he was a Nishada who might (in time) excel all his high-born pupils. But, O oppressor of all enemies, the Nishada prince, touching Drona's feet with bent head, wended his way into the forest, and there he made a clay-image of Drona, and began to worship it respectfully, as if it was his real preceptor, and practised weapons before it with the most rigid regularity. In consequence of his exceptional reverence for his preceptor and his devotion to his purpose, all the three processes of fixing arrows on the bowstring, aiming, and letting off became very easy for him.

So from that very page, the text tells us that Eklavya was a Nishada, that he was of a "low caste", that according to the "rules of morality", Drona rejects him, because he was a Nishada, fearing he will excel all his "high-born" pupils. A distinction is made between him and his "high-born" pupils, because despite being a prince of a forest-tribal community, the Nishada's were not considered "upper-caste" by mainstream society.

The passage also states that after being rejected he goes back to the forest where he builds a clay image of Drona, where he worships and practices his art in front of it. How is this considered espionage? LOL.... how does being self-taught get characterised as stealing state-secret? 🤣

And where is it mentioned in the Mahabharata that Eklavya is related to Krishna and Pandavas?

Please check Harivamsa for Eklavya's bio origins. His alliance with Jarasandha and attack on krishna are clearly stated in SB. Google is your friend.

Eklavya was born a Yadava, adopted by a Nishada king. His bio father was Devashrava, brother to Vasudev and Kunti.

Also note: his adoptive father was a king. Allied to Jarasandha, to boot.

If Eklavya could self-teach, why did he go to Drona? Why was he in Kurujangala instead of his father's kingdom? He was there to steal. Unless you imagine knowledge travelling by telepathy or osmosis, he wasn't self-taught. I don't believe in magic, so I don't believe Eklavya learned by any means other than direct instruction or clandestine activity. if you want to prove he somehow did so, go ahead.

He was neither low caste, nor underprivileged, nor without allies. He went to an enemy kingdom's guru and was rejected. He then proceeded to steal secrets. He was fool enough to brag. He got caught. He got punished.

Imagining it as some caste crime gives the reader a kind of moral superiority I assume. But stealing military know-how is still a crime, no matter what the caste of the criminal.

😆 Best part of the whole argument is this: even if Eklavya were low caste, even if he didn't INTEND to steal, he did steal.

Originally posted by: Heisenberg17_

Fact 5 updated - Arjun went crying to Drona, complaining to Drona and reminding of the promise he made to him, that Drona was going to make him the best archer in the world.

Excerpt from that very same link - https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01135.htm

"Vaisampayana continued, 'The Pandavas then, having made themselves acquainted with everything connected with him, returned (to the city), and going unto Drona, told him of that wonderful feat of archery which they had witnessed in the woods. Arjuna, in particular, thinking all the while, O king, Ekalavya, saw Drona in private and relying upon his preceptor's affection for him, said, 'Thou hadst lovingly told me, clasping me, to thy bosom, that no pupil of thine should be equal to me. Why then is there a pupil of thine, the mighty son of the Nishada king, superior to me?"

"Vaisampayana continued, 'Hearing these cruel words of Drona, who had asked of him his thumb as tuition-fee, Ekalavya, ever devoted to truth and desirous also of keeping his promise, with a cheerful face and an unafflicted heart cut off without ado his thumb, and gave it unto Drona. After this, when the Nishada prince began once more to shoot with the help of his remaining fingers, he found, O king, that he had lost his former lightness of hand. And at this Arjuna became happy, the fever (of jealousy) having left him.

🤣

And? Eklavya was still an enemy prince. Hastinapuri couldn't let him steal secrets. You seem to imagine MBh as some sort of teen drama on TV. These were kingdoms battling for supremacy. Lives were at stake. You really think Drona cut off the thumb of a prince allied to Jarasandha to please a boy? You don't imagine Jarasandha would've attacked if it weren't justified?

Most of KMG is available online. Do some reading first.

Originally posted by: .Lonewalker.

That's Lord Vishnu. Not Krishna. (As per my understanding)

He states in Bhagwad Gita that he is kaal, par brahm.... he’s the ruler or time and space.

Even Kabir Sahib states him having 10 avatars. Even Gautam Buddha is from the region.. the region prescribed to lord Vishnu in part is actually lower.. which is just a manifestation of the whole.. Brahma Vishnu Mahesha being sons of Niranjan Jyoti..(starting point of Brahm..)

most major religions of the world are deities till brahm... par brahm is beyond.. the description isn’t there in even the vedas.. it just leaves at the brahm being boundless.

. ..except for Sikhism and saints that are from even a higher region..

Originally posted by: Aanandaa

Fosho.👍🏼My personal favorite, and apparently even Lord Krishna’s, happens to be Vidhura though. The only one who NEVER uttered or done a wrong deed and always took the side of the Dharma, in the entire Epic! ⭐️

According to some, he’s actually an incarnation of Dharmraj.. reborn as a result of a curse.

Originally posted by: Wistfulness

Haha! Why is it so surprising? 😅

No no. I just meant how do you understand such ancient Indian languages. I find it quite impressive that you love reading such tough books.

I mean just look at this. You are pretty good. Kudos to you.

पितामहस्य भवनम् गच्चन्तीम् पुञ्जिकस्थलाम् |

चञ्चूर्यमाणामद्राक्षमाकाशेऽग्निशिखामिव || ६-१३-११

सा प्रसह्य मया भुक्ता कृता विवसना ततः |

स्वयम्भूभवनम् प्राप्ता लोलिता नलिनी यथा || ६-१३-१२

तच्च तस्य तदा मन्ये ज्ञातमासीन्महात्मनः |

अथ सम्कुपितो वेधा मामिदम् वाक्यमब्रवी || ६-१३-१३

अद्यप्रभृति यामन्याम् बलान्नारीम् गमिष्यसि |

तदा ते शतधा मुर्धा फलिष्यति न संशयः || ६-१३-१४

😎

Are we now victimizing Eklavya over caste too? 😆 Even if his biological origin is ignored, he was still a Prince, belonged to a kingdom who had strong allies like Jarasandha. No way he was a caste victim. Even if he belonged to Brahman or Kshatriya race, he would have met the same fate. Him being an ally of Magadha, which was arch rival of Hastinapur sealed his fate. Not his caste.

Drona himself was a problematic character, but he was not particularly inclined towards caste supremacy. Drona had other students apart from the Kuru Princess & contrary to popular beliefs, Adhirath's adopted son Karna was one of them. If Drona did caste favouritism, he wouldn't have taken him in. Also neither Arjuna's childish jealousy towards Eklavya nor Drona's promise to make Arjuna the best archer had anything to do with it otherwise Karna wouldn't have been left with 2 perfect thumbs till the last day of his life. 😆 Drona did not have any problem with Karna because he was from Hastinapur & not from any rival kingdom.

Drona’s foremost duty was to protect Hastinapur and eliminate threats. Ekalavya was one such catastrophe waiting to happen. Even if we leave the whole "stealing knowledge" thing out, Drona could not let Eklavya roam around announcing everywhere he is Drona's student because then Drona would have been accused of treason. Without Drona committing any such thing. Drona was caught in a very tight spot there & he did his best to wiggle out of it with minimum damage imparted. Had he dragged Eklavya to Bhisma or Dhritarashtra it would have been his neck & not just a thumb. And that, also wouldn't have had anything to do with his caste.

Originally posted by: .Lonewalker.

Are we now victimizing Eklavya over caste too? 😆 Even if his biological origin is ignored, he was still a Prince, belonged to a kingdom who had strong allies like Jarasandha. No way he was a caste victim. Even if he belonged to Brahman or Kshatriya race, he would have met the same fate. Him being an ally of Magadha, which was arch rival of Hastinapur sealed his fate. Not his caste.

Drona himself was a problematic character, but he was not particularly inclined towards caste supremacy. Drona had other students apart from the Kuru Princess & contrary to popular beliefs, Adhirath's adopted son Karna was one of them. If Drona did caste favouritism, he wouldn't have taken him in. Also neither Arjuna's childish jealousy towards Eklavya nor Drona's promise to make Arjuna the best archer had anything to do with it otherwise Karna wouldn't have been left with 2 perfect thumbs till the last day of his life. 😆 Drona did not have any problem with Karna because he was from Hastinapur & not from any rival kingdom.

Drona’s foremost duty was to protect Hastinapur and eliminate threats. Ekalavya was one such catastrophe waiting to happen. Even if we leave the whole "stealing knowledge" thing out, Drona could not let Eklavya roam around announcing everywhere he is Drona's student because then Drona would have been accused of treason. Without Drona committing any such thing. Drona was caught in a very tight spot there & he did his best to wiggle out of it with minimum damage imparted. Had he dragged Eklavya to Bhisma or Dhritarashtra it would have been his neck & not just a thumb. And that, also wouldn't have had anything to do with his caste.

Succinctly put!

Just because the folklore decided to carry a rather dramatized version of the story, doesn’t mean facts can be ignored.

It only proves that the conspiracy theorists have always had a job. 😆

Originally posted by: .Lonewalker.

Are we now victimizing Eklavya over caste too? 😆 Even if his biological origin is ignored, he was still a Prince, belonged to a kingdom who had strong allies like Jarasandha. No way he was a caste victim. Even if he belonged to Brahman or Kshatriya race, he would have met the same fate. Him being an ally of Magadha, which was arch rival of Hastinapur sealed his fate. Not his caste.

Drona himself was a problematic character, but he was not particularly inclined towards caste supremacy. Drona had other students apart from the Kuru Princess & contrary to popular beliefs, Adhirath's adopted son Karna was one of them. If Drona did caste favouritism, he wouldn't have taken him in. Also neither Arjuna's childish jealousy towards Eklavya nor Drona's promise to make Arjuna the best archer had anything to do with it otherwise Karna wouldn't have been left with 2 perfect thumbs till the last day of his life. 😆 Drona did not have any problem with Karna because he was from Hastinapur & not from any rival kingdom.

Drona’s foremost duty was to protect Hastinapur and eliminate threats. Ekalavya was one such catastrophe waiting to happen. Even if we leave the whole "stealing knowledge" thing out, Drona could not let Eklavya roam around announcing everywhere he is Drona's student because then Drona would have been accused of treason. Without Drona committing any such thing. Drona was caught in a very tight spot there & he did his best to wiggle out of it with minimum damage imparted. Had he dragged Eklavya to Bhisma or Dhritarashtra it would have been his neck & not just a thumb. And that, also wouldn't have had anything to do with his caste.

Thank you!

I don't even like Drona as a character and ended up defending him because this was one situation he did absolutely nothing wrong.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Please check Harivamsa for Eklavya's bio origins. His alliance with Jarasandha and attack on krishna are clearly stated in SB. Google is your friend.

Eklavya was born a Yadava, adopted by a Nishada king. His bio father was Devashrava, brother to Vasudev and Kunti.

Also note: his adoptive father was a king. Allied to Jarasandha, to boot.

If Eklavya could self-teach, why did he go to Drona? Why was he in Kurujangala instead of his father's kingdom? He was there to steal. Unless you imagine knowledge travelling by telepathy or osmosis, he wasn't self-taught. I don't believe in magic, so I don't believe Eklavya learned by any means other than direct instruction or clandestine activity. if you want to prove he somehow did so, go ahead.

He was neither low caste, nor underprivileged, nor without allies. He went to an enemy kingdom's guru and was rejected. He then proceeded to steal secrets. He was fool enough to brag. He got caught. He got punished.

Imagining it as some caste crime gives the reader a kind of moral superiority I assume. But stealing military know-how is still a crime, no matter what the caste of the criminal.

😆 Best part of the whole argument is this: even if Eklavya were low caste, even if he didn't INTEND to steal, he did steal.

I asked you where in the Mahabharata does it state that Eklavya was related to Krishna and Pandavas, and you're giving me Harivamsha. Exactly my point, it isn't mentioned anywhere in the Mbh, but in Harivamsha, which is a late text, an appendix/sequel of the Mahabharata, but was composed at a much later date.

I mean, you have a wonderful imagination and everything, but the text says it black and white that Drona rejected him because he was a Nishada - lowest of the mixed orders, and was afraid that he would excel his "high-born" students. I mean if his caste wasn't an issue, they simply wouldn't have mentioned it. It also doesn't say that he was rejected because he was allied to an enemy, or that he was secretly observing them, or that he was a spy, or any of the whimsical tales you're coming up with.

Notice how Drona only acts AFTER Arjuna complains to him, everyone else was praising Eklavya, but it's only after Arjuna complains about Eklavya being superior, and reminding Drona of his promise, does Drona go to Eklavya, taking Arjuna with him. Even then, Drona does not accuse him of espionage/spy/stealing state secrets.

None of your claims are backed by the Mbh.