~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 113

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Yes sovereign like no other kingdom has any right on them they are independent for their decisions and policies

Yes. Sovereignity is the right term used for Rajasuya. It means independence. It does not mean rule over others.

India is a sovereign country. i.e. India is independent. It does not mean India rules over nepal, pakistan and bangladesh

The term used for the emperor is Lord of all the lands.

Bhu natha...

Vassal is called Raja

Independent king after Rajasuya Maharaja

After Ashwamedha Samrat

After Vajpeya Chakravartin Samrat

Originally posted by: Chiillii

Yes. Sovereignity is the right term used for Rajasuya. It means independence. It does not mean rule over others.

India is a sovereign country. i.e. India is independent. It does not mean India rules over nepal, pakistan and bangladesh

The term used for the emperor is Lord of all the lands.

Bhu natha...

Vassal is called Raja

Independent king after Rajasuya Maharaja

After Ashwamedha Samrat

After Vajpeya Chakravartin Samrat

Anga was a vassal state to Hastinapur right? So wasn't it mandatory for Karna to support Hastinapur? How could Krishna offer him to change sides then?

I mean I know he was just being a politician and wasn't much into actually offering him a thing, but still by which rationale did he even ask to switch sides?

Second question-- from what I had read in Ashwamedh it's not necessary to win over entire country, few states could be independent while there is a Samrat in the country but for Chakravarti Samrat he needed to be the head of entire country. Could you confirm on this

Also giving money as dowry and monetary help to Pandavas does not mean Krishna was helping them.establish an empire. It means he was helping them stand on their feet.

Kuru were just one branch of a puru part of Yayati's huge chandravanshi family. They had no birth right on empire.

Yayati was long dead and no one cared what curse he gave to his son Yadu.

Anyone who had the might to be the emperor could be one.

There were surya vanshi kings in Kasi and Kosala.

Yayati himself was not an emperor. Yayati only did a Rajsuya, he had a territory comprising very small part near Saraswati river.

His sons separated and eatablished independent kingdoms and slowly built cities by burning down forests and Just like Arjun burned down Khandavvan

And only two of Yayatï's sons had any might to become an emperor

1. Kartavirya Arjun who was killed by Parshuram. He was a Yadu

2. Bharat son of Dushyant who was a puru.

When Kartavirya arjun lived, purus had a very tiny teritory, samvarna puru was chased away by a suryavanshi king and had to beg vashishta to get his land back.

So no Krishna never had the problem of not being a kuru.

His problem was Kansa. Jarasandh. amd Jarasandh's allies. Shishupal. Salwa. Dantavakra. Paundraka. Vinda/Anuvinda. Rukmi. Kalayavana. Bhaumasura. Dwividha and Mainda, and Hansa and Dimbhaka and finally, Nikumbha and Banasura

And he used bhima / arjun to kill Jarasandha. But before that he used Pandavas and specifically Arjun as a friend and important ally whom he needed, because he could not take on all the above mentioned kings alone if they chose to attack.together. like in the past.

Like I have mentioned Kuru blood doesnt mean anything.

Krishna was called a cowherd because his father actually became a cowherd after being dethroned. Shurasen was a kshatriya king. Yadus ruled entire central India before as Haihaiya yadavas till they got killed by Parshuram

Originally posted by: Chiillii

Subhadra was not in a neutral space too. Its very clear in Krishna's words that there was a possibility she would not choose Arjun. Why would that possibility be. Was Arjun not the literally the best guy around. As in if Arjun walks into a swayamvar why would any girl even look at any other man, except maybe Krishna. But Krishna is the brother here. So most likely scenario, she already had someone else in mind, that Krishna knew and therefore instead of formally arranging a marriage that he could have done in minutes. He makes Arjun kidnap her

why he dint arrange a formal marriage is questionable. maybe he wasnt sure balram or other yadavas would accept his proposal

The list of kings who could build empire was limited to Kuru and Panchal which was one of the reasons Jarasandha was considered an usurper.

Krishna would have been, too. Which is why in spite of all the military wins he had, he never aspired to the throne. Moreover, he had no way of making Pradyumna the emperor regardless of Jarasandha's fall.

If Panchali married Arjuna alone, there still would've been no reason for Pandavas to help Krishna. THAT help was given in return for Krishna's help in setting up the kingdom. The kingdom would not have been possible if Panchali married Arjuna. She was always meant to marry Yudhishtira. Idea doesn't make me happy, but it was what it was. No way Krishna didn't know it.

Once Panchali was married to Yudhishtira, all chances of a Yadava supremacy were done as far as Krishna knew at the time. It would've been the son born to Yudhishtira and Panchali.

Pradyumna, Aniruddha et al didn't feature in line to inherit.

I'm willing to buy that Krishna's views were limited to getting rid of Jarasandha but not that he wanted Yadavas to rule the land. Because it simply wouldn't have been possible the way it went down, and it's not believable that Krishna didn't understand only the eldest could sit on the throne absent compeling reason like blindness.

Moreover, Krishna was offered the crown by Ugradena out of fear, which was refused. Krishna politely states he didn't do any of it for the power. Later, he wasn't accepted as legitimate even by the Yadavas. He was accused of being thief and murderer. If Krishna wasn't accepted as legitimate, his son wouldn't have been, either.

When Pandavas did Rajasuya, they did not have many enemies. Shishupal happily welcomed Bhima and offered him his sister. Rukmi was equally nice to him. Kekaya kings and the ones beyond let Arjun rest and collected tributes on his behalf as they were his cousins.

Sahadev had a very easy time in south. Nakul had absolutely no battles.

Everyone just accepted their independence happily.

Krishna was staunch enemy for everyone. He was independent only because he established the kingdom in a no man's land. In Mathura he could not, everyone was on Jarasandh's side whose son in law Krishna had killed. And Kansa was not the demon that he was made out to be for all these kings, he was a friend killed unfairly.

And Krishna finally killed his last enemies Bhagadutta and Vinda Anuvinda and their samsaptakas only in the war through Arjun. Rukmi, Paundraka, Eklavya, Banasur were killed during the Pandavas exile. Salwa during dice game. Shishupal during Rajasuya. Jarasandh, Dantavakra, Bhaumasur etc before it.

So Krishna only after the war got to a position where he could start working towards his empire. But that was his goal always.

And Krishna wanted Arjun. He did not want Yudhishtir. Getting permission was needed only if Arjun was commander in chief of IP. And that was because of Polyandry.

For all we know Krishna could have made Arjun king of Uttar panchal by dethroning Drona and made Draupadi the queen.

Brothers moved out and established their own kingdoms all the time. Rama's brothers who loved him more than BANS loved Yudhi moved out and ruled their own kingdoms.

Only thing would be that Arjun would never attack IP himself and protect it if someone else attacked that is all.

Bhima would have stayed on or moved to Hidimbvan. Twins would have gone to Madra.

Vyasa realised it and prevented it. Draupadi was meant to get Arjun out. Vyasa used her to bind him even more.

Since Krishna was preoccupied with his enemies, he accepted it. Because his priority was finishing them, Pandavas could be dealt with later.

Subhadra marriage to Arjun was not planned initially but done eventually to be taken advantage of at a later stage.

O Duryodhana! Why are you travelling with all these sighs?”

‘Duryodhana replied, “O maternal uncle!8 I saw the entire earth brought under

Yudhishthira’s suzerainty, conquered with the power and weapons of the great-souled one

with white horses.9 I witnessed the sacrifice of Partha,10 like that of the immensely radiant

Shakra among the gods. I am full of envy and am burning day and night. I am drying up like

a shallow pond in the hot season.11 Witness—when Shishupala was felled by the foremost of

the Satvatas,12 there wasn’t a single man who stood by his side. The kings were burnt with

the flames of the Pandavas and pardoned the crime. Who can pardon that crime? Vasudeva’s

great deed was improper and succeeded only because of the power of the great-souled

Pandavas. Various kings brought many jewels to King Kounteya13 and worshipped him, like

vaishyas who pay taxes. On seeing the blazing prosperity of the Pandavas, I am afflicted with

jealousy and am burning, though I am not made that way. I will throw myself into the fire, or

consume poison, or immerse myself in water. I cannot bear to be alive. What true man in the

worlds has the fortitude to see his rivals prosper, while his own self is in decline? If today I

bore the prosperity that has befallen them, I would not be a woman, or one who is not a

woman, or a man, or one who is not a man. On witnessing their lordship over the earth, the

likes of their riches and the likes of their sacrifice, how can a man like me not be feverish?

Alone, I am not capable of acquiring such royal prosperity, nor do I see any help. Therefore, I

am thinking of death. On seeing the pure prosperity of Kunti’s son, I consider destiny to be

supreme and endeavour to be meaningless. O Soubala! In the past, I have made attempts to

kill him.14 But he overcame all of them and prospered like a lotus in the water. Therefore, I

consider destiny to be supreme and endeavour to be meaningless. The Dhritarashtras15 are

declining and the Parthas are always prospering. When I see their prosperity and that

beautiful sabha and the derisive laughter of the guards, I burn as if with fire. O maternal

uncle! Please allow me now to suffer in misery and tell Dhritarashtra about the envy that has

pervaded me.

CE, VOL 2

Krishna did not work towards any empire after war. He didn't go on Ashwamedha.

Yes, he was grey, but not as much as he's being painted.

Originally posted by: Chiillii

Ok so both were being sarcastic to each other

And people make it like Krishna admired and cared for Karna the most after Arjun n Panchali and hence approached him since he didn't want Karna to support Adharma.🤓

And they make it sound like Karna did a great sacrifice for Duryodhan by not leaving his side despite knowing that he would die/lose, heck he would have had to leave his state and kingdom to switch side and shift to Pandavas who till then had nothing at all, why would he do that, he wasn't a fool😎. And why would he think he would end up on the losing side/die (well death could have had happened at either side) Kauravas were the stronger side on paper

Thank you for confirming about Ashwamedh, even I had read it, but was slightly confused.

Actually in true sense only a Chakravarti Samrat could be called an emperor, but since we had an additional level (Samrat) between Maharaj (monarch) and Emperor (Chakravarti Samrat), we might loosely translate Samrat to emperor as well

I'd like to know how Pradyumna would've been king if Arjuna married Panchali.