~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 76

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

She blamed Vasudev and Shurasena for giving her away and this putting her in a position of getting raped.

Except rape part, she says this to Krishna in MBh.

Kunti was barely in her teens when she had Karna. And she didn't float him in the river. She sent him BY the river with identifying marks to the land ruled by the solar dynasty. Ie, to his father's people. Athiratha was a brother or cousin of King of Anga.

When Kunti made the comment about 4 men: Panchali was nowhere in the picture. Also Kunti said 4 MEN, not husbands.

She went to Karna later to avoid war. By that time, she loathed him for what he did. Her asking was a political ploy to save her other sons and Panchali. She already knew Krishna would protect Arjuna.

@Bold she didn't specifically ask for the lives of her 4 sons, Karna granted her that on his own in his overconfidence.

She however could have definitely declared when she saw Karna getting into wrong company and plottings but her sons were her preference then.

I still don't think Adhirath or his family were the biological father of Karna, the description of SunGod approaching her is too disturbing and does hint a forced relation. I don't think any man would like to accept a kid he had from his r**e. Solar dynasty was huge, there might have been others too from that dynasty

Regarding Vasudev, she was given for adoption in childhood, and I don't think Vasudev could have had much say in that. Also the prestige of the princess of Kuntibhoj was huge when compared to the princess of the non ruling Yadava clan

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Once again, by Kunti's own words, she was blaming Vasudeva and Shurasena for giving her away. She said nothing to Krishna about Vasudeva not helping her while he was in jail. SHE likely didn't respond to his plea for help because of her grudge.

Ok she was given away but I don't think kuntibhoj mistreated her still it was her emotions , even she did d same with karn .

Why grudge with vasudev I guess he was younger than her , it would be soorsen who had given her away.

She really had a weird mind she holded so much grudge against her father & brother who gave her 2 kuntibhoj but forgave kauravs who made her & Pandavas lives living hell.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Ugrasena was king of Mathura. The proto democracy was established only after the move to Dwaraka. Even then, it wasn't direct democracy, sort of a republicanism with each clan having it's own vote.

Krishna didn't have any position of authority in Dwaraka.

Ok thanks for correcting me

Originally posted by: deepikagupta9

Ok she was given away but I don't think kuntibhoj mistreated her still it was her emotions , even she did d same with karn .

Why grudge with vasudev I guess he was younger than her , it would be soorsen who had given her away.

She really had a weird mind she holded so much grudge against her father & brother who gave her 2 kuntibhoj but forgave kauravs who made her & Pandavas lives living hell.

Vasudeva and Shurasena gave her away either for no particular reason or for political purpose so she could marry Pandu eventually.

Kutnibhoj told her to serve the brahmana. I don't know if you've read the part of Sun God approaching Kunti. It was rape.

There is a difference between what Vasudeva and Shurasena did and what a teenaged Kunti did with her illegitimate child. She sent Karna to his father's family when there was no way she could take care of him herself.

@FP. Anga's lineage is given in HV. Multiple citations from MBh also indicate Athirath was a royal from Anga.

chitra-ratha's son is → dasha-ratha … whose daughter is shAnta, who is given

to the son of sage vibhANDaka, namely sage R^ishya- shR^i~Nga; dasha-ratha’s son

is → catura~Nga whose descent is at the grace of sage R^ishya- shR^i~Nga, who

conducted a vedic ritual called putra-kAmeShTi on behalf of dasha-ratha to

effectuate the birth of chatura~na; from chatura~Nga → pR^ithula-akSha →

champa; this king champa’s capital is champA-puri, aka mAlini-puri; he begot one

prince called harya~Nga

...

This is the patriline from harya~Nga → bR^ihat-karmA → bR^ihad-darbha

→ bR^ihat-manAH → jayadratha →

...

O king janamejaya, king jayadratha is born of lady yashodevi. And from lady

satya is born the celebrated king vijaya, who by his equanimity of mind and other

qualities is superior to the brAhmaNa-s and by heroism and other accomplishments,

is superior to the kshatriya-s...

vijaya's son is dhR^iti whose son is dhR^ita-vrata. His son is the highly

illustrious satya-karma...

The son of satya-vrata through a brAhmaNa lady is a sUta - because of the

rule: brAhmaNyAm kshatriya jAtaH sUta iti abhidhIyate -

and this mighty chariot-warrior draws the suffix of ratha in his name from the

very same dynasty of kshatriya-s with –ratha suffix, and he is called athi-ratha, who later adopted the son of lady kunti, namely karNa as his son. It is therefore karNa is

called the son of a charioteer... the family of the highly powerful karNa has thus been

described. karNa's son is vR^iSha-sena whose son is vR^iSha...

http://mahabharata-resources.org/harivamsa/hv_1_31.html

the child contained in the basket came to the city of Champa ruled by a person of

the Suta tribe. Indeed, the excellent coat of mail and those ear-rings made of Amrita

http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-mbh-03:section-306

Vaisampayana said, And it came to pass that at this time a Suta named Adhiratha, who was a

friend of Dhritarashtra, came to the river Ganga, accompanied by his wife. And, O king, his wife

named Radha was unparalleled on earth for beauty. And although that

http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-mbh-03:section-307

------

His given name was Vasusena, which means “rich,” because he was rich. When Kunti

sent him off on his boat ride, he was loaded with valuable stuff.

Then the well-known husband of Radha, of the Suta caste, took up the child thus cast into

the water, and he and his wife brought him up as their own son.And Radha and her

husband bestowed on him the name of Vasusena born with wealth because he was born

with a natural armour and ear-rings.

http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-mbh-01:section-111

------

After Pandu married Kunti, he starts on his Digvijay. He reaches Madradesh and

marries Madri, installs her in Hastinapuri.

Then he continues on his campaign. Now, Anga/Chapa/Malini is not mentioned in his

campaign, but the image shows how close he got.

http://ancientvoice.wdfiles.com/local--files/travel:pandu-s￾travels/PandusMilitaryExpedition.jpg

And we know from the Rangbhumi episode, Anga was under Hastinapuri. Malini was

later donated to Karna by Jarasandh, so that part was definitely annexed by him.

The following link shows what a BRUTAL conqueror Pandu was. He slaughtered the

royalty of every kingdom captured by him. My guess is that, on account of his

friendship with Dhritharashtra, Athiratha was allowed to live, and he chose to be a

charioteer because that was the one thing he knew well.

http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-mbh-01:section-113

^^^ I know about Adhirath's family being the rulers of AngaPradesh.

But they weren't the only solar dynasty people for sure. I said that I don't think Adhirath or his relatives were actually Karna's biological father.

All the citations you gave prove that Adhirath was from solar dynasty and from the royal family of Anga. Or that he was rich. No doubt about these, but none of these actually prove that Anga's royal family was Karna's biological family. He could very well be the son of other solar dynasty family. Now obviously since he was adopted by Adhirath, he took all the family names, having his son named Vrishsen (I didn't get the last part though, Vrishsen had a son called Vrisha? Wasn't Karna called Vrisha? Did he mean to say Vrishsen means the son of Vrisha)

My point is that Adhirath wasn't Karna's biological father/uncle/ relative, because it seems highly improbable that a person (read man) would readily accept his child from r**e. If I am not mistaken Karna was Adhirath's eldest son. Maybe since he didn't have a child for long, when he got to know about Kunti's pregnancy, he offered her for adoption.

Now we discussed that day about the kind of Yagyas as detailed by Chiilli, so Digvijay was nothing but kind of Hafta Wasooli, "chup chap itne paise nikal nhi to yahin tapka doonga". Ok sorry.

Anyhow so Pandu was in his Digvijay so probably was only looking for money. He didn't annex the states during this voyage, it's only when he reached AngaPradesh (probably at some other time else his voyage would have mentioned the name of this state) he realised that this land could be annexed and he did that. Although I doubt Pandu was so benevolent to have left Adhirath just because he was Dhritrashtra's friend, but maybe a big mistake he did.

I think the then king of Anga faced a two sided attack, with Magadh annexing Malini and Pandu/Hastinapur annexing AngaPradesh. Somehow Karna managed to get back both for his foster family and hence became their favourite

You're right there were other solar dynasties.

But see the trip Baby Karna took in his basket. Btw, he would've drowned if it were actually a basket. I'm assuming Kunti sent him boat. He went all the way from Kuntibhoj to Anga where Athirath adopted him. Could be coincidence, but I doubt it.

On a side note when people make shows on Karna why do they make it a sob story filled with discrimination, they should actually make some thing on his intelligence, political awareness, zeal to get his rights back, strength etc.

Just think of a story premise, an infant abandoned by birth mother, adopted by some distant cousin of a small yet powerful king. Has immense strength and skills, but before he could learn to refine those, their kingdom is snatched away and he is forced to become a servant/guard into the house of another king.

His journey to get back the reign of his foster family without shedding a drop of blood just by his political awareness and Kootniti.

Definitely they need to add the Tadka of friendship, betrayal, mother son melodrama, brothers anger etc. but make them a minor part

This would be a much better and interesting storyline than that of a forever discriminated and howling Karna

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

You're right there were other solar dynasties.

But see the trip Baby Karna took in his basket. Btw, he would've drowned if it were actually a basket. I'm assuming Kunti sent him boat. He went all the way from Kuntibhoj to Anga where Athirath adopted him. Could be coincidence, but I doubt it.

No I agree to the point that she sent it to Adhirath not just flown away, actually I did mention it above, maybe Adhirath got to know about the r**e, and since he didn't have any child of his own by then, he offered to adopt Karna once the child is born. If he somehow knew that the biological father is from solar dynasty all the better for him. So Kunti sent it to him once he was born

Along with no r**ist actually would be willing to take such children, if he actually was Adhirath's son, this also raises doubt on Radha, since she is said to have loved Karna more than her biological children, I don't think you would get ladies who would love the children of their husbands' r**e so dearly

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

On a side note when people make shows on Karna why do they make it a sob story filled with discrimination, they should actually make some thing on his intelligence, political awareness, zeal to get his rights back, strength etc.

Just think of a story premise, an infant abandoned by birth mother, adopted by some distant cousin of a small yet powerful king. Has immense strength and skills, but before he could learn to refine those, their kingdom is snatched away and he is forced to become a servant/guard into the house of another king.

His journey to get back the reign of his foster family without shedding a drop of blood just by his political awareness and Kootniti.

Definitely they need to add the Tadka of friendship, betrayal, mother son melodrama, brothers anger etc. but make them a minor part

This would be a much better and interesting storyline than that of a forever discriminated and howling Karna

THIS!!!👏

Karna was an extremely intelligent man and willing to do whatever it took. Instead of focusing on his strengths which went way beyond his archery, they prefer to focus on an idiotic sob story.

Few facts

Adhirath and his ancestors were not surya vanshi. They were Paurava Chandravanshi

One of the puru lines came all the way to Raudrashwa whose wife was apsara ghritachi. Not the wife of pramati. Two of his eventual descendents were Ushinara and Kaksheyu

Ushinara's son Shibi had 5 sons who established Sivi kaikeya Madra Sindhu and Sauvira in the north west

Second Kaksheyu had a son Bali whose 5 sons established Anga Vanga Paudra Sushma and Kalinga in south east

Lineage after Bali is same as provided by hear me.roar

Also Romapada's son in law rishyaringa helped suryavanshi dasrath get 4 sons. So the Anga chandravanshi kingdom had friendly relations with Kasi and Kosala kingdoms who were suryavnshi.

Coming to Kansa

Kansa was biological son of Drumila King of Sauba, he was most likely son of Salwa King of Sauba of the Amba Bhishma fame. He would go on to have a legal biological son named Salwa after his grandfather who attacks Dwarka as revenge against killing of his step brother kansa and friend Shishupal.

Like I mentioned before anyone not willing to worship vishnu was classified as Asur or born of Asur.

Magadha and their vassals were strongly against Vishnu worship. They worshipped shiva and some of their allies worshipped Devi.

So Drumila Kansa Bhauma Jarasandh Bana etc become Asur or asur incarnations.

That was massive political propaganda going on