~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 42

Originally posted by: deepikagupta9

No I was asking, I was thinking 2 read , as meghnad is an other interesting character 4 me

he is my favourite 😆 btw read what?

Originally posted by: NoraSM

@bold -

This is what I believe, he didn't really have any special love for Yudhishtira or Duryodhana, Old people hide molestation attempts in their home because they want to keep a united image in front of everyone. Duryodhan was aggressive, anything against Duryodhana would have meant an angry Dhritarashtra, Pandu wasn't there and they needed a face for Hastinapur

You see Hastinapur's downfall began with division, This fight was the reason for end of Kuru race, The crown was more important than any individual

Bhishma didn't punish Duryodhana for poisoning incident for this reason only, that's why Vidur asked Pandavas not to tell anyone about it because they didn't have evidence, son of King can't be wrong

If Bhishma was to take a side, who would it be? Pandavas were too young, their father was dead, he couldn't rule, Dhritarashtra knew every state secret, they could have joined an enemy to take over Hastinapur

Bhishma didn't let Pandavas die at the same time he didn't punish Kauravas, this explains someone trying to keep his lineage together

From what I see the state (Dhritarashtra) was one center of power and Bhishma was another power center

If I combine these two power centers against Pandavas, They don't survive, These two power centers weren't working together that's the reason Pandavas survived and got good education.

Bhishma was good towards both, He wasn't righteous or someone who would go against his King like he didn't in Dyut Sabha, He was speaking from both sides, nothing suggests that Pandavas had a bad deprived childhood, they got everything and it wouldn't have been possible if Bhishma wasn't there because Dhritarashtra didn't care about them

Was there any other power center?

They didn't listen to Vidur openly in dice hall, so I am ruling him out

Kunti didn't have backing, she didn't even go back to her home

Sages could be manipulated because state sets the narrative, they could have felt that Pandava murder was conspiracy but they could not blame Bhishma who was statue of righteousness, a man who left everything for his family

Note - Of course you didn't hurt anyone 🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗

Actually my bold lines were to About the post of HearMeRoar, that he wanted both to die fighting each other not the one you said that he wanted both happy.

That in no way is a possibility. If it's not mentioned that Bheeshm was involved then it's also not mentioned that he saved them, you want to believe in the second without any reasons, I feel the first because he by actions did support Kauravas n their cause

According to me, he preferred Suyodhan, by his actions he always did. According to HearMeRoar he was against both and wanted both to kill each other so that his revenge is over with Satyavati's lineage getting over. And he got that at least partially, the biological lineage of Satyavati was finished. (Not literally since Sukna muni was still there but from, Hastinapur politics)

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

Bhishma was someone like Yudhisthir - a blind follower of flawed dharma of aryavarta which was just thinly veiled patriarchy just as manusmriti is (not even veiled). And as per that niyog is absolutely a noble act of dharma. Why exactly would he be so intolerant to Dharma (niyog kids) is something I do not understand. Maybe he was angry that Pandu did not ask him, but if he did he could have suggested Dhritarashtra for niyog or Vyasa himself.

How would his hatred for Kunti fit in here. I do not think he knew of Karna at THIS stage. We are unsure of the time.

He was a patriarch and a misogynist not being consulted would have actually hurt his ego. Especially when he didn't know the father.

Also to bring in here that the reason that Bheeshm was not consulted was probably exactly this, he would have suggested Dhritrashtra and Dhritrashtra would have ensured that his child is born earlier

Can someone tell me why is Karna Duryodhan friendship so much highlighted?

Isn't it pretty clear that Shusharma was the best friend of Duryodhan who sacrificed himself for his friend without any expectations??

Lately I am feeling bad for Shusharma, guy gave hardest time to Arjun, did for Duryodhan what only a very dedicated and honest friend can do and yet both these positions go to Karna😡

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01106.htm

I don't buy into the idea of Bheeshma favoring Dhritharashtra because Vidura and Bheeshma were the ones who put Pandu on the throne. Pandu strengthened Hastinapuri.

I don't think he favored either. I think he was playing both sides or indifferent.

I was also wondering how come they did not get Dhrit married again. However, maybe she had a miscarriage because Yudhishthir is mentioned to be born before Gandhari's first son ie while she was pregnant. So maybe Dushala was born, then she had like miscarriages or something or did not conceive and then by the time she did conceive again Yudhi was born.

Either is possible but not 2-year pregnancy

Here two things can happen - 1) I don't think every conversation these people had was recorded so maybe for urgency Vidur informed Ps first and then did tell BHishma? Maybe it is not recorded just like it is not mentioned that Bhishma knew or spies coming and telling Bhishma about stuff. 2) Vidur did tell Bhishma and both of them planned and informed Ps, ie Vidur went but Bhishma knew or Vidur did not think it necessary to inform Bhishma and THEN GO tell Yudhishthir. He just did the urgent bit first and later he could tell Bhishma what he did and he was sure Bhishma would not be unsupportive of him.

TBH I believe Bhishma did not have so much love for Satya to make sure her progeny gets throne. Infact I believe the opposite and I feel he would do everything to make sure her sons do not get any happiness. Honestly his promise cannot imply Satya's lineage. Can't believe that.

I didn't think I implied that Bheeshma wanted Satyvati's lineage? If I did, that was my poor phrasing.

@bold - How?

Vyasa was the only one who could change Yudhishtira's mind. See: Panchali swayamvara (though it didn't involve "change"), the promise not to indulge in hostilities with Kurus at the end of rajasuya, the argument between Yudhishtira and Panchali in Vana Parva; he was deriding Panchali until Vyasa came in and ordered everyone to do exactly the same thing Panchali wanted (he didn't so do what she says, but you get the gist), and Yudhishtira immediately started preparing for war, the post war conversation and once again argument with brothers and Panchali where Vyasa came in told Yudhishtira to do his duty, and he immediately complied, finally the Vidura bit where Yudhishtira blamed his bio father without knowing the fact, and Vyasa came in and told him to treat the man with respect.

@bold - but he was very much a clear biological heir to Shantanu. Duryodhan was still at the end a product of niyog. Bhishma was literally the rightful heir and the right he had to give up while Duryodhan at the end may not be the rightful heir and if he was so was Yudi being elder. So technically Bhishma I do not think considered Duryodhan even equal to him. I believe he hated him as well as had no fascination for Yudhishthir either.

Agreed

I more or less agree with your POV . I strongly believe he did not care about Yudhishthir or Duryodhan. I prefer to go with with Dharmakshetra showed in this case- I think he always believed it is HIM who deserved to be there and not whole of chandal chaukdi who came in and he was quite a sadist and I am sure he was like - let these hooligans do what they want. Anyway, my parts in bold in reply.

I just do not think it is viable to say he preferred Duryodhan over Yudhishthir and assume he was part of the conspiracies to kill them because he was so inclined to have Satya's line on throne and hated Kunti so much.

He may have not cared to stop them but he was not a part. Dury being king would not give him extra happiness.

I didn't intend to imply Bheeshma wanted Suyodhana to be king. I intended to say the whole enmity between cousins was tacitly encouraged initially likely because Bheeshma disliked all of them, later because of political situation with Jarasandha. Lac house and division and dice hall, i'm sure were done with Bheeshma's blessing. Bheeshma says he had spies and knew every bit of what went on in the kingdom. It's in Anushasana Parva. I can't give you citation because it wasn't interesting enough at the time for me to add it to my notes, but it's there.

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

he is my favourite 😆 btw read what?

Novel based on him.

Ravan putra meghnad prince of lanka

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

You should change the title of the topic to "Whatever you want to argue about."😆

This is more into discussion than the Mahabharata discussion thread

@Adhya please change the topic title

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

Just did.

🤣

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Can someone tell me why is Karna Duryodhan friendship so much highlighted?

Isn't it pretty clear that Shusharma was the best friend of Duryodhan who sacrificed himself for his friend without any expectations??

Lately I am feeling bad for Shusharma, guy gave hardest time to Arjun, did for Duryodhan what only a very dedicated and honest friend can do and yet both these positions go to Karna😡

Ashwattama too. The pain he felt on duryodhan s death. He did really loved him like a brother. Karna duryodhan s friendship is highly exaggerated. The character karna itself is highly exaggerated half of things about him are blown out of proportion to glorify that guy

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

He was a patriarch and a misogynist not being consulted would have actually hurt his ego. Especially when he didn't know the father.

Also to bring in here that the reason that Bheeshm was not consulted was probably exactly this, he would have suggested Dhritrashtra and Dhritrashtra would have ensured that his child is born earlier

I have already agreed him not being consulted would not go well with him but this is too minor a reason for him to prefer Duryodhan. I don't think he preferred anyone neither was he against anyone because he has no reason to support either.