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Ab hume naye topic discussion karna chaiye , is topic pe bahut discussion ho chuka😆

I want 2 know why pandavas dint had kids after d war ?

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

See Satyavati asking from Bheeshm is mentioned, but Pandu who was in forest has a discussion with Kunti n they decide for Niyog, no Bheeshm in the process of decision making. He would have been mentioned if he was a part of this decision making

Vyas lineage to throne is definitely not something he was bound too, I added that point to show that why Dhritrastra Pandu were acceptable over Pandavas.

I am saying it is about preference. Definitely Suyodhan or his brothers were not some Extra affectionate of Bheeshm

Had say Ambika had a blind Dhritrashtra by Vichitraveer and later Ambalika had a fit Pandu from Vyas by Niyog, he would have probably preferred Dhritrashtra over fit Pandu. But that wasn't the case here, both were Kshetraj born by Niyog so he prefers Pandu

Coming to next generation, Dhritrashtra has biological children, Pandu's are through Niyog (for him now Dhritrashtra n Pandu are both equals,) Niyog permission is not taken from him, he doesn't know who the father is(I am sure he wouldn't have believed in divine birth theory) and probably the Kunti angle too, he won't he have a clear favourite?

Had Pandavas accepted their position as some needy submissive cousins, Bheeshm would have welcomed them whole heartedly, but they were clear from day 1 that they want their land back. He was witnessing the tension between the two sets, he knew that it could grow high enough to destroy Hastinapur n it's might.

Wouldn't he do something to stop it,??

Had u read raavan putra meghnath the prince of lanka book ?

Originally posted by: deepikagupta9

Ab hume naye topic discussion karna chaiye , is topic pe bahut discussion ho chuka😆

I want 2 know why pandavas dint had kids after d war ?

Isi bahaane 50 pages ho gaye na, ye to Dekho. I hope we reach 150

I think age ho gayi thi unki

Originally posted by: deepikagupta9

Had u read raavan putra meghnath the prince of lanka book ?

No. Is it good?

Congratulations for completing 50 pages 🥳.

You should change the title of the topic to "Whatever you want to argue about."😆

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

^^^ This would mean that Bheeshm was actually playing both sides, just Hastinapur was important to him.

Even I never believe that Duryodhan was some beloved of Bheeshm, there is no reason why he would be, I am saying he was preferable to Bheeshm, being only one level Kshetraj (Pandavas were two level Kshetraj and him having the probability to doubt Kunti. Who knows he might have thought Pandavas to be the result of some extra marital relationship instead of simple Niyog). Satyavati lineage is an added advantage I do feel.

If he wanted Hastinapur to prosper, he definitely needed a king on the throne, he himself wasn't a contender it had to be therefore either Duryodhan or Yudhishtir n his brothers. In such scenario he had a clear favourite.

Suyodhan wasn't rude or arrogant to Bheeshm as TV series Duryodhan, nor was he hated by public who flowered Pandavas by their love(@Nora that's what I wanted to say that his involvement in murder attempts was never exposed). Infact the point you made about him arranging for Pandavas to do the dirty work of killing Jarasangh actually support my stance. He didn't give that dirty work to Suyodhan or the Kauravas but to Yudhishtir n Pandavas. He definitely felt Dhritrashtra and sons as main Kuru family which had to be protected for Hastinapur.

In such scenario think of their childhood, Bheem was a big time bully but not a criminal, Kaurav brothers actually stooped down to murder attempts (poisoning wasn't the only one its clear,) @Nora, I agree to your point that had Bheeshm wished he would have succeeded in killing, but why don't you think that of he wished he could have punished the culprits? Stopped the attacks. There were multiple attacks and thinking that he never got to know means he was highly incapable, and Pandavas never approached him shows he was not trustworthy.

Neither is the projection of Bheeshm in the epic. Hence he definitely knew about that, if he wasn't the one planning, then in this case he didn't do anything, that according to me would make him a bigger mastermind. I do feel it was his plan, just he didn't get successful

I am not making Bheeshm a villian, he was doing his politics just like nearly every one else. Just he was better at being able to hide it.

@All never intended to hurt the feelings of anyone

Saying that at the dice hall if nothing else, he could have at least tried to stop Karna. Karna was an outsider, like a servant to them and Draupadi (even if she was) wasn't his slave. Bheeshm if wasn't pro activities that happened there, would have at least attempted to stop Karna once

@bold -

This is what I believe, he didn't really have any special love for Yudhishtira or Duryodhana, Old people hide molestation attempts in their home because they want to keep a united image in front of everyone. Duryodhan was aggressive, anything against Duryodhana would have meant an angry Dhritarashtra, Pandu wasn't there and they needed a face for Hastinapur

You see Hastinapur's downfall began with division, This fight was the reason for end of Kuru race, The crown was more important than any individual

Bhishma didn't punish Duryodhana for poisoning incident for this reason only, that's why Vidur asked Pandavas not to tell anyone about it because they didn't have evidence, son of King can't be wrong

If Bhishma was to take a side, who would it be? Pandavas were too young, their father was dead, he couldn't rule, Dhritarashtra knew every state secret, they could have joined an enemy to take over Hastinapur

Bhishma didn't let Pandavas die at the same time he didn't punish Kauravas, this explains someone trying to keep his lineage together

From what I see the state (Dhritarashtra) was one center of power and Bhishma was another power center

If I combine these two power centers against Pandavas, They don't survive, These two power centers weren't working together that's the reason Pandavas survived and got good education.

Bhishma was good towards both, He wasn't righteous or someone who would go against his King like he didn't in Dyut Sabha, He was speaking from both sides, nothing suggests that Pandavas had a bad deprived childhood, they got everything and it wouldn't have been possible if Bhishma wasn't there because Dhritarashtra didn't care about them

Was there any other power center?

They didn't listen to Vidur openly in dice hall, so I am ruling him out

Kunti didn't have backing, she didn't even go back to her home

Sages could be manipulated because state sets the narrative, they could have felt that Pandava murder was conspiracy but they could not blame Bhishma who was statue of righteousness, a man who left everything for his family

Note - Of course you didn't hurt anyone 🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

My 2 cents.

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Bheeshma was a young man when he made that vow. Imagine growing up thinking he was going to inherit and become king and then finding out you're going to an employee all your life. Realistically speaking, Bheeshma must've hated both Shanthanu and Satyavati. Unfortunately, the king wasn't offering to abdicate and go live with Satyavati while leaving Bheeshma as king. So the vow was taken.

Fast forward to Vichitraveera's death. Bheeshma refused to do Niyog. He knew at the time the kingdom would fall to Jarasandha if there were no heir. Bheeshma still refused. Could be from ego or could be because he wanted kingdom to fall.

He did not agree to do niyog himself. He was however the one to suggest niyog by another Brahmin so I do not think here he was okay with kingdom going to Jarasandha. He simply suggested to bring another Brahmin for niyog and I am sure even if Satya did not bring in Vyasa there were other Brahmins who could be brought in. So here he is not paving way for kingdom to fall.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01106.htm

I don't buy into the idea of Bheeshma favoring Dhritharashtra because Vidura and Bheeshma were the ones who put Pandu on the throne. Pandu strengthened Hastinapuri.

Fast forward to their weddings. Keep in mind impotence and infertility are two different things. Impotence would likely have been known to Pandu before. Infertility would not. Gandhari became pregnant. I think she had Dusshala, and that's why there was no 2nd wife for Dhritharashtra in spite of there being no son yet. General contention is that Pandu's sons were born first, and Gandhari had a 2-year pregnancy which is not possible. So either Dusshala was first, or Suyodhana was actually older which was later changed to suggest the opposite.

I was also wondering how come they did not get Dhrit married again. However, maybe she had a miscarriage because Yudhishthir is mentioned to be born before Gandhari's first son ie while she was pregnant. So maybe Dushala was born, then she had like miscarriages or something or did not conceive and then by the time she did conceive again Yudhi was born.

This would explain why Suyodhana grew up thinking he would be king.

Pandu died, and Pandavas entered Hastinapuri. There were huge fights between the two groups, including Bheema breaking bones and Suyodhana arranging a poisoning attempt. Bheeshma did absolutely nothing. It is impossible for me to believe he didn't know. If he still did nothing, it was because he didn't want to. He was the patriarch, and he let the enmity fester. Vidura was still young at the time. He might or might not have considered interfering, but people take time to grow into their personalities. He didn't intervene, either.

Yudhishtira was crowned yuvraj. Now, Vyasa clearly says that Suyodhana was well-loved by the citizens.

Lac house happened. Interesting to note that Bheeshma who admittedly kept spies on everyone in the kingdom didn't realize what the prince of the realm was getting up to. Vidura informed Yudhishtira but supposedly didn't tell Bheeshma? Vyasa clearly knew but also didn't tell Bheeshma?

Here two things can happen - 1) I don't think every conversation these people had was recorded so maybe for urgency Vidur informed Ps first and then did tell BHishma? Maybe it is not recorded just like it is not mentioned that Bhishma knew or spies coming and telling Bhishma about stuff. 😆 2) Vidur did tell Bhishma and both of them planned and informed Ps, ie Vidur went but Bhishma knew or Vidur did not think it necessary to inform Bhishma and THEN GO tell Yudhishthir. He just did the urgent bit first and later he could tell Bhishma what he did and he was sure Bhishma would not be unsupportive of him.

TBH I believe Bhishma did not have so much love for Satya to make sure her progeny gets throne. Infact I believe the opposite and I feel he would do everything to make sure her sons do not get any happiness. Honestly his promise cannot imply Satya's lineage. Can't believe that.

Then, swayamvara happened.

Afterward, the supposedly clueless patriarch arranged the division of the kingdom against the wishes of the supposedly powerful crown prince.

Jarasandha was defeated, and Yudhishtira became a mighty king. Dice hall happened. Bheeshma didn't inform Vyasa, the one person who could've stopped it. Vidura also didn't inform Vyasa. Krishna was en route to Dwaraka and was attacked by mercenary danavas as he himself reported later. I'm assuming that's why neither Arjuna nor Panchali were able to send a message. I doubt Panchali was dense enough to assume there would be no danger in Hastinapuri especially after Vidura's warnings.

@bold - How?

The might of the kingdom passed to Hastinapuri.

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Two things to consider:

1) Politics. Everyone wanted Jarasandha out. But Jarasandha was relentlessly vengeful. If there was an attack which failed, he'd destroy that kingdom. See what happened to Krishna and Mathura. Any attack on Jarasandha had to be arranged with plausible deniability for Hastinapuri and Panchala. Imagine if Krishna, Arjuna, and Bheema failed. Who would be blamed? Only Shakraprastha and Krishna because Krishna was acting as an individual then. Pandava kingdom would be destroyed and Krishna would be killed. Hastinapuri and Panchala would live to see another day.

Having said this, think back. Pandavas were surely not dumb enough to agree to this while Yudhishtira was living a cushy life as crown prince. The plotters needed them desperate. I believe the idea for murder was planted in Suyodhana's head by the constant mockery. Everyone knew he'd do something, and Bheeshma had spies. Through Vidura, who probably wasn't a plotter, they informed Pandavas.

Now, the 5 brothers were in a desperate situation. Now, they were ready to agree to anything.

Panchali was adopted. Drupada was the king, so he could order her marriage, but she was no mutely obedient woman not to know at least part of the plot. Perhaps the part which said they'd be taking down Jarasandha.

Dice hall happened with Bheeshma's blessing because he wanted the might back with Hastinapuri.

So yeah, I do believe Bheeshma wasn't the loving grandfather he is portrayed to be. He deliberately manipulated both sets of grandsons to make sure of a certain outcome. Once it was achieved, he sat back and let Suyodhana do the dirty deed of dice hall.

2) Bheeshma's personal thoughts. There is a book which states that Bheeshma had to have seen the enmity between cousins and let it go on because of anger at Satyavati's manipulation. He was simply letting her progeny fight each other and die.

@bold - seems more probable

This is entirely possible.

The other possibility is that during all the political manipulation he did, he started seeing himself in Suyodhana. Like Bheeshma, Suyodhana also grew up thinking he'd be king and had it yanked away in adulthood.

@bold - but he was very much a clear biological heir to Shantanu. Duryodhan was still at the end a product of niyog. Bhishma was literally the rightful heir and the right he had to give up while Duryodhan at the end may not be the rightful heir and if he was so was Yudi being elder. So technically Bhishma I do not think considered Duryodhan even equal to him. I believe he hated him as well as had no fascination for Yudhishthir either.

I more or less agree with your POV . I strongly believe he did not care about Yudhishthir or Duryodhan. I prefer to go with with Dharmakshetra showed in this case- I think he always believed it is HIM who deserved to be there and not whole of chandal chaukdi who came in and he was quite a sadist and I am sure he was like - let these hooligans do what they want. Anyway, my parts in bold in reply.

I just do not think it is viable to say he preferred Duryodhan over Yudhishthir and assume he was part of the conspiracies to kill them because he was so inclined to have Satya's line on throne and hated Kunti so much.

He may have not cared to stop them but he was not a part. Dury being king would not give him extra happiness.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

No. Is it good?

No I was asking, I was thinking 2 read , as meghnad is an other interesting character 4 me

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

obviously he went for Shantanu and meant their children, but in absence of either of them he would prefer lineage of at least one over a complete outsider. Have given a priority thing

Bhishma was someone like Yudhisthir - a blind follower of flawed dharma of aryavarta which was just thinly veiled patriarchy just as manusmriti is (not even veiled). And as per that niyog is absolutely a noble act of dharma. Why exactly would he be so intolerant to Dharma (niyog kids) is something I do not understand. Maybe he was angry that Pandu did not ask him, but if he did he could have suggested Dhritarashtra for niyog or Vyasa himself.

How would his hatred for Kunti fit in here. I do not think he knew of Karna at THIS stage. We are unsure of the time.