~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 40

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

These born from fish or virginity after childbirth etc. is not practically possible so definitely let's not go there

She did Brahmin sewa to beget Parashar a son. Parashar took the son n left, Vyas knew that Satyavati is his mother. Aside Satyavati wasn't a big princess to have hid her pregnancy for months unlike Kunti. Definitely people knew about it

She didn't hesitate to tell about Vyas as need arose unlike Kunti who didn't reveal even when it was known that Pandu won't have children

Sadly noone know about it , if it was known then most probably Shantanu or bheesam would never agreed for marriage. Satyavati told bheesam when vedvyas called 4 niyog.

Shantanu was obsessed not a mad king who will marry a grl who had child before marriage.

If bheesam had a low thinking 4 Kunti then what make satyavati great ? Both had child before marriage.

Bheesam vowed 4 Shantanu not 4 satyavati.

Originally posted by: deepikagupta9

I m also saying this but it was for Shantanu's son not any son of satyavati . Without Shantanu involved bheesam would had never approached only forget taking vow & satyavati was not a royal birth nor related 2 bheesam then why will he take vow 4 satyavati & leave his crownship.

Reason of bheesam approaching Satyavati's father was Shantanu's obsession 4 satyavati.

Bheesam took this vow coz his father not coz of satyavati .

Later Shantanu granted him d boon of iccha mrityu

Originally posted by: deepikagupta9

Sadly noone know about it , if it was known then most probably Shantanu or bheesam would never agreed for marriage. Satyavati told bheesam when vedvyas called 4 niyog.

Shantanu was obsessed not a mad king who will marry a grl who had child before marriage.

If bheesam had a low thinking 4 Kunti then what make satyavati great ? Both had child before marriage.

Bheesam vowed 4 Shantanu not 4 satyavati.

Because Satyavati had the kid due to Brahmin sewa, and it's highly unlikely that a girl can hide that she has given birth aside Vyas knew that Satyavati is the mom so it doesn't seem a secret to me

Satyavati asked Bheeshm if Vyas could be called for Niyog

Obviously Bheeshm vowed for Shantanu but now its time to chose among non Shantanu kids obviously the one with at least one parent will be preferred

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

But who else would be overlord after partition? Yudhishthir isn't here so obviously it will be Duryodhan.

I still don't understand why he did not anything if he didn't want Yudhishthir besides again, he never promised descendants of Satya.

Also if it was so accepted how come Satyavati never told this to Shantanu and her dad also never mentioned above Vyas.

Kunti hides it because i think she was most probably r***d and not naturally asked to do it. Moreover why didn't she wish to marry Solar dynasty prince or choose him etc like Amba planned to do if it is a solar dynasty prince. Why choose Pandu.

@Bold Duryodhan was the overlord of Yudhishtir

I am not blaming Kunti am simply saying that Bheeshm wouldn't have had good notion about Kunti

About Satyavati we don't know if or not she ever Said Shantanu. But she was a normal girl, who couldn't have hid her pregnancy unlike Kunti. Vyas knew that she is his mom, she immidiately mentioned his name for Niyog, when Bheeshm refused, so I don't think it was much of a secret

Originally posted by: NoraSM

King Dhritarashtra should be honoured both by myself and you all. He. indeed, is a well-wisher of mine who is obedient to the commands of Dhritarashtra. He, on the other hand, who behaves otherwise towards him, is my enemy. Such a man should certainly be punished by me

This is Yudhishtir on Dhritarashtra, Is there anything to suggest that Bhishma was loved and people won't accept him as wrong but Dhritarashtra being wrong is acceptable?

We are just overlooking everything and trying to see Mahabharata from one perspective of Bhishma being villain, I don't believe there's enough evidence for it to be true

@bold -

Law and State machinery was with The King

Bhishma conspired to send Duryodhana to kill Bhima because Bhishma wanted Duryodhana as King

If Bhishma wanted to kill Pandavas would have hired someone to do it, arrest him after he does so and punish him in front of sages and public, if Sages were the problem then kill 2-3 sons of Dhritarashtra too

IF Bhishma was doing everything to see Duryodhana as King, he wouldn't ask a kid Duryodhana to be a part of murder plan of future King.

I wouldn't trust a child with my important documents and this is risking image of Crown Prince

Well Karna and Shakuni were for that purpose (killing) Duryodhan just oversaw it. He might have punished them if they succeeded but they didn't. Now that can't have anything in support/out support

This statement of Yudi is just to give him a kind benevolent image.

Duryodhan stood out as villian during Dyut Sabha, rejection of Shanti Varta etc. Making him the villian was easy. (His posioning crime never came out in public before the war) Bheeshm was always in closet, so no way he could have been given a wrong name

You think that Bheeshm failed hence he didn't try, I feel that Pandavas didn't approach means he wasn't trustworthy unlike Vidur

My 2 cents.

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Bheeshma was a young man when he made that vow. Imagine growing up thinking he was going to inherit and become king and then finding out you're going to an employee all your life. Realistically speaking, Bheeshma must've hated both Shanthanu and Satyavati. Unfortunately, the king wasn't offering to abdicate and go live with Satyavati while leaving Bheeshma as king. So the vow was taken.

Fast forward to Vichitraveera's death. Bheeshma refused to do Niyog. He knew at the time the kingdom would fall to Jarasandha if there were no heir. Bheeshma still refused. Could be from ego or could be because he wanted kingdom to fall.

I don't buy into the idea of Bheeshma favoring Dhritharashtra because Vidura and Bheeshma were the ones who put Pandu on the throne. Pandu strengthened Hastinapuri.

Fast forward to their weddings. Keep in mind impotence and infertility are two different things. Impotence would likely have been known to Pandu before. Infertility would not. Gandhari became pregnant. I think she had Dusshala, and that's why there was no 2nd wife for Dhritharashtra in spite of there being no son yet. General contention is that Pandu's sons were born first, and Gandhari had a 2-year pregnancy which is not possible. So either Dusshala was first, or Suyodhana was actually older which was later changed to suggest the opposite.

This would explain why Suyodhana grew up thinking he would be king.

Pandu died, and Pandavas entered Hastinapuri. There were huge fights between the two groups, including Bheema breaking bones and Suyodhana arranging a poisoning attempt. Bheeshma did absolutely nothing. It is impossible for me to believe he didn't know. If he still did nothing, it was because he didn't want to. He was the patriarch, and he let the enmity fester. Vidura was still young at the time. He might or might not have considered interfering, but people take time to grow into their personalities. He didn't intervene, either.

Yudhishtira was crowned yuvraj. Now, Vyasa clearly says that Suyodhana was well-loved by the citizens.

Lac house happened. Interesting to note that Bheeshma who admittedly kept spies on everyone in the kingdom didn't realize what the prince of the realm was getting up to. Vidura informed Yudhishtira but supposedly didn't tell Bheeshma? Vyasa clearly knew but also didn't tell Bheeshma?

Then, swayamvara happened.

Afterward, the supposedly clueless patriarch arranged the division of the kingdom against the wishes of the supposedly powerful crown prince.

Jarasandha was defeated, and Yudhishtira became a mighty king. Dice hall happened. Bheeshma didn't inform Vyasa, the one person who could've stopped it. Vidura also didn't inform Vyasa. Krishna was en route to Dwaraka and was attacked by mercenary danavas as he himself reported later. I'm assuming that's why neither Arjuna nor Panchali were able to send a message. I doubt Panchali was dense enough to assume there would be no danger in Hastinapuri especially after Vidura's warnings.

The might of the kingdom passed to Hastinapuri.

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Two things to consider:

1) Politics. Everyone wanted Jarasandha out. But Jarasandha was relentlessly vengeful. If there was an attack which failed, he'd destroy that kingdom. See what happened to Krishna and Mathura. Any attack on Jarasandha had to be arranged with plausible deniability for Hastinapuri and Panchala. Imagine if Krishna, Arjuna, and Bheema failed. Who would be blamed? Only Shakraprastha and Krishna because Krishna was acting as an individual then. Pandava kingdom would be destroyed and Krishna would be killed. Hastinapuri and Panchala would live to see another day.

Having said this, think back. Pandavas were surely not dumb enough to agree to this while Yudhishtira was living a cushy life as crown prince. The plotters needed them desperate. I believe the idea for murder was planted in Suyodhana's head by the constant mockery. Everyone knew he'd do something, and Bheeshma had spies. Through Vidura, who probably wasn't a plotter, they informed Pandavas.

Now, the 5 brothers were in a desperate situation. Now, they were ready to agree to anything.

Panchali was adopted. Drupada was the king, so he could order her marriage, but she was no mutely obedient woman not to know at least part of the plot. Perhaps the part which said they'd be taking down Jarasandha.

Dice hall happened with Bheeshma's blessing because he wanted the might back with Hastinapuri.

So yeah, I do believe Bheeshma wasn't the loving grandfather he is portrayed to be. He deliberately manipulated both sets of grandsons to make sure of a certain outcome. Once it was achieved, he sat back and let Suyodhana do the dirty deed of dice hall.

2) Bheeshma's personal thoughts. There is a book which states that Bheeshma had to have seen the enmity between cousins and let it go on because of anger at Satyavati's manipulation. He was simply letting her progeny fight each other and die.

This is entirely possible.

The other possibility is that during all the political manipulation he did, he started seeing himself in Suyodhana. Like Bheeshma, Suyodhana also grew up thinking he'd be king and had it yanked away in adulthood.

^^^ This would mean that Bheeshm was actually playing both sides, just Hastinapur was important to him.

Even I never believe that Duryodhan was some beloved of Bheeshm, there is no reason why he would be, I am saying he was preferable to Bheeshm, being only one level Kshetraj (Pandavas were two level Kshetraj and him having the probability to doubt Kunti. Who knows he might have thought Pandavas to be the result of some extra marital relationship instead of simple Niyog). Satyavati lineage is an added advantage I do feel.

If he wanted Hastinapur to prosper, he definitely needed a king on the throne, he himself wasn't a contender it had to be therefore either Duryodhan or Yudhishtir n his brothers. In such scenario he had a clear favourite.

Suyodhan wasn't rude or arrogant to Bheeshm as TV series Duryodhan, nor was he hated by public who flowered Pandavas by their love(@Nora that's what I wanted to say that his involvement in murder attempts was never exposed). Infact the point you made about him arranging for Pandavas to do the dirty work of killing Jarasangh actually support my stance. He didn't give that dirty work to Suyodhan or the Kauravas but to Yudhishtir n Pandavas. He definitely felt Dhritrashtra and sons as main Kuru family which had to be protected for Hastinapur.

In such scenario think of their childhood, Bheem was a big time bully but not a criminal, Kaurav brothers actually stooped down to murder attempts (poisoning wasn't the only one its clear,) @Nora, I agree to your point that had Bheeshm wished he would have succeeded in killing, but why don't you think that of he wished he could have punished the culprits? Stopped the attacks. There were multiple attacks and thinking that he never got to know means he was highly incapable, and Pandavas never approached him shows he was not trustworthy.

Neither is the projection of Bheeshm in the epic. Hence he definitely knew about that, if he wasn't the one planning, then in this case he didn't do anything, that according to me would make him a bigger mastermind. I do feel it was his plan, just he didn't get successful

I am not making Bheeshm a villian, he was doing his politics just like nearly every one else. Just he was better at being able to hide it.

@All never intended to hurt the feelings of anyone

Saying that at the dice hall if nothing else, he could have at least tried to stop Karna. Karna was an outsider, like a servant to them and Draupadi (even if she was) wasn't his slave. Bheeshm if wasn't pro activities that happened there, would have at least attempted to stop Karna once

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

I didn't say he didn't know,, I said he wasn't informed

There is a difference between not being told and not knowing. The decision was taken without informing him ( no mention that Pandu asked for his permission or even informed him) he definitely knew but he wasn't a part of decision making

Pandu did it himself without his advice, Satyavati took his permission, can't you see the difference

Agreed he didn't say Satyavati's lineage but that's what was implied. Again as i have mentioned in other post it's priorities

Alright accepted that he was not informed about niyog or taken permission of.

However i don't understand how it was implied.. Reading the part doesn't make me feel so. I have already given reasons why i felt differently. I don't think it was his responsibility to make sure Vyasa's lineage got throne because he is satya ka son.

I am not saying Bhishma loved Pandavas too much or something but I don't see if he was a part he will be categorically left out and him being a patriarch he would in anyway have to work so much to her rid of 5 kids keeping aside their special powers. Also, we do not know WHEN he got to know about Karna whether it was before niyog or not.

@FP Bheehma gave the dirty work to Yudhishtira and his brothers more likely because 1) Yudhishtira could eventually be more easily manipulated if/when he won and formed a powerful kingdom and 2) it wouldn't have worked if Bheeshma tried to manipulate Pandavas into killing Suyodhana. They'd have waited to take permission from all elders 😆 like Yudhishtira did before war which would've put paid to any and all plans.

Yeah, Bheeshma COULD have felt Suyodhana was the rightful heir also.

IMO, Bheeshma didn't care about either side and possibly was happy at the thought of them killing each other.

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

Alright accepted that he was not informed about niyog or taken permission of.

However i don't understand how it was implied.. Reading the part doesn't make me feel so. I have already given reasons why i felt differently. I don't think it was his responsibility to make sure Vyasa's lineage got throne because he is satya ka son.

I am not saying Bhishma loved Pandavas too much or something but I don't see if he was a part he will be categorically left out and him being a patriarch he would in anyway have to work so much to her rid of 5 kids keeping aside their special powers. Also, we do not know WHEN he got to know about Karna whether it was before niyog or not.

See Satyavati asking from Bheeshm is mentioned, but Pandu who was in forest has a discussion with Kunti n they decide for Niyog, no Bheeshm in the process of decision making. He would have been mentioned if he was a part of this decision making

Vyas lineage to throne is definitely not something he was bound too, I added that point to show that why Dhritrastra Pandu were acceptable over Pandavas.

I am saying it is about preference. Definitely Suyodhan or his brothers were not some Extra affectionate of Bheeshm

Had say Ambika had a blind Dhritrashtra by Vichitraveer and later Ambalika had a fit Pandu from Vyas by Niyog, he would have probably preferred Dhritrashtra over fit Pandu. But that wasn't the case here, both were Kshetraj born by Niyog so he prefers Pandu

Coming to next generation, Dhritrashtra has biological children, Pandu's are through Niyog (for him now Dhritrashtra n Pandu are both equals,) Niyog permission is not taken from him, he doesn't know who the father is(I am sure he wouldn't have believed in divine birth theory) and probably the Kunti angle too, he won't he have a clear favourite?

Had Pandavas accepted their position as some needy submissive cousins, Bheeshm would have welcomed them whole heartedly, but they were clear from day 1 that they want their land back. He was witnessing the tension between the two sets, he knew that it could grow high enough to destroy Hastinapur n it's might.

Wouldn't he do something to stop it,??