Keechak was Suta - Page 4

Thankyou Chhilli so my first assumption was right Karna faced more of Class discrimination than caste discrimination

Caste system might have been there by Dwapar end but at least Sutas didn't face it

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Thankyou Chhilli so my first assumption was right Karna faced more of Class discrimination than caste discrimination

Caste system might have been there by Dwapar end but at least Sutas didn't face it

Yes. Also another interesting thing, Shantanu married Satyavati who was a fisherwoman's daughter. I am sure she was not a Kshatriya then? So if discrimination existed so much, then Shantanu would not be able to marry her so easily. Was Satya the daughter of a king? Because if it is so, then here too class comes into play. Despite being non Kshatriya she was royal so was welcome to the family.

Marrying some girl from lower caste wasn't a problem ever. Issues whenever, were in marrying girl from higher caste

Even for Shrawan Kumar, his father was a Vaishya and mom a Shudra

In Dwapar the varna was indeed being assigned by birth. But people were respected for their deeds and behavior.

Choice of profession was free and abundant for everyone.

Choice of marriage as well. Brahmin girls were marrying Kshatriya kings if they fell in love with them like Devyani or Shakuntala or Ganga. The women had that choice to marry a boy from lower Varna.

Parshuram happily trained Bhishma a suta and gave him every weapon. Drona did not give Brahmashira to Duryodhan a Kshatriya, whom as per varna rules he can

Like Hear me Roar mentioned Suta were kings, queens, commander in chief like Keechaka or Bhishma, ministers. There must have been priests too. Ashwatthama was a Brahmin King.

Adhirath Karna's father was younger son of King Satyavrat of Anga. He was not in line to the throne but he was still a prince. He chose to be charioteer to bigger King's.

Of course politics and power play existed. But that did in Ramayana too, otherwise why would Rama have to go for exile.

^^^ not talking about Suta Brahmins or Kshatriyas but Vaishyas and Shudras might had not have many career opportunities

Originally posted by: Chiillii

In Dwapar the varna was indeed being assigned by birth. But people were respected for their deeds and behavior.

Choice of profession was free and abundant for everyone.

Choice of marriage as well. Brahmin girls were marrying Kshatriya kings if they fell in love with them like Devyani or Shakuntala or Ganga. The women had that choice to marry a boy from lower Varna.

Parshuram happily trained Bhishma a suta and gave him every weapon. Drona did not give Brahmashira to Duryodhan a Kshatriya, whom as per varna rules he can

Like Hear me Roar mentioned Suta were kings, queens, commander in chief like Keechaka or Bhishma, ministers. There must have been priests too. Ashwatthama was a Brahmin King.

Adhirath Karna's father was younger son of King Satyavrat of Anga. He was not in line to the throne but he was still a prince. He chose to be charioteer to bigger King's.

Of course politics and power play existed. But that did in Ramayana too, otherwise why would Rama have to go for exile.

@bold - so Arjuna could be a teacher if he wanted? But the concept of caste is professional choice at least then - that a Brahmin's duty was to teach and impart knowledge and Kshatriyas had the duty of protection. How can they choose anything else.

Drona was Brahmin, he was a teacher by profession. Arjun, Yudhishthir etc were Kshatriyas and hence warriors.

How come choice of profession was free?

@Underlined- why would a prince decide to be a charioteer. If he was a prince why was Anga gifted to Karna by Duryodhan.

Also pratiloma marriage is denounced by scriptures. It wasn't as easy as you say it was. Anuloma was alright.

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

@bold - so Arjuna could be a teacher if he wanted? But the concept of caste is professional choice at least then - that a Brahmin's duty was to teach and impart knowledge and Kshatriyas had the duty of protection. How can they choose anything else.

Drona was Brahmin, he was a teacher by profession. Arjun, Yudhishthir etc were Kshatriyas and hence warriors.

How come choice of profession was free?

@Underlined- why would a prince decide to be a charioteer. If he was a prince why was Anga gifted to Karna by Duryodhan.

Also pratiloma marriage is denounced by scriptures. It wasn't as easy as you say it was. Anuloma was alright.

Probably Pandu had won over Anga Pradesh by Sutas. Duryodhan just returned his land to him (not mine it's HearMeRoar's theory)

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Probably Pandu had won over Anga Pradesh by Sutas. Duryodhan just returned his land to him (not mine it's HearMeRoar's theory)

Yeah I read her post as well. But still don't understand Adhirath's sudden Choice of profession.

Below is part where Kripa mentions sons of Kings don't fight sons of people below their lineage. Now, if Sutas were free to choose any profession, how is this possible. Karna was taught by Drona as well, so I am taking that his lineage is considered inferior to that of Pandavas and Kauravas.

Kripa, knowing all duties and cognisant of the rules regulating duels, addressed Karna, saying 'This Pandava, who is the youngest son of Kunti, belongeth to the Kaurava race: he will engage in combat with thee. But, O mighty-armed one, thou too must tell us thy lineage and the names of thy father and mother and the royal line of which thou art the ornament. Learning all this, Partha will fight with thee or not (as he will think fit). Sons of kings never fight with men of inglorious lineage.'

Now this part is where Duryodhan clearly states Karna is a KSHATRIYA of low birth. But Bheem does discriminate against him by virtue of the profession his father belongs to. Hence, occupational hierarchy did exist.

Seeing the charioteer, the Pandava Bhimasena took Karna for a charioteer's son, and said by way of ridicule, 'O son of a charioteer, thou dost not deserve death in fight at the hands of Partha. As befits thy race take thou anon the whip. And, O worst of mortals, surely thou art not worthy to sway the kingdom of Anga, even as a dog doth not deserve the butter placed before the sacrificial fire.' Karna, thus addressed, with slightly quivering lips fetched a deep sigh, looked at the God of the day in the skies. And even as a mad elephant riseth from an assemblage of lotuses, the mighty Duryodhana rose in wrath from among his brothers, and addressed that performer of dreadful deeds, Bhimasena, present there, 'O Vrikodara, it behoveth thee not to speak such words. Might is the cardinal virtue of a Kshatriya, and even a Kshatriya of inferior birth deserveth to be fought with. The lineage of heroes, like the sources of a lordly river, is ever unknown

Ashwatthama was Brahmin, but he became a King.

Vishwamitra was King he became a teacher.

Didn't Krishna become a charioteer by choice to Arjuna.

Wasn't Kaikeyi a queen charioteer for Dasrath in Devasur war. It was her skills as charioteer that got her the two boons from Dasrath.

Charioteer on a regular day may be just a servant but charioteer on battlefield used to save the King's lives. How many times did Krishna do that.

I repeat my previous statement here, Karna was not insulted for being a Suta because there were other Suta and even lower caste than Suta Vidur (a kshatra) who were never insulted.

Karna was insulted for being Karna. If he had been a Kshatriya he would still have been insulted.

I'll give you the example of the citation you have given. For what Kripacharya says

Sons of kings never fight with men of inglorious lineage.'

Reference is specifix to Karna's inglorious lineage here. His biological father was unknown and adoptive father a nobody. His adoptive father's lineage from Anga had done nothing worth talking about and were Infact conquered by Pandu

Kripa compares him to Arjun and says Arjun is son of Pandu, youngest son of Kunti (daughter of king Kuntibhoj and sister to Vasudeva) and belongs to the famous family of Kurus.

Fact of the matter is Adhirat did not do anything famous in life neither did his forefathers for Karna to call his family glorious.

After that Bhima ridicules him as son of charioteer, calls him undeserving of throne just as a dog undeserving of the homa butter.

Again reference is to Adhirath who himself has never ruled any kingdom and his son Karna too just obtained a kingdom in charity. A kingdom that Bhim'S father had conquered. And he dare to threaten to kill his younger brother in public.

There is absolutely no single verse in the entire epic, where any other Suta or a lower caste person ever gets insulted by others

It is Karna Or Duryodhan who insult people or get insulted. And that is totally on them, not anything to do with their Varna. The insults are specifically for Karna. He would have been insulted even if he had been adopted by an unknown Kshatriya King, unless that King was someone famous already