Why Parikshit? - Page 13

Originally posted by: Chiillii

Similarly when someone says in Draupadi Swayamavr Krishna was present with his son Pradyumna and Grandson Aniruddh's.

If it is faith this discussion is not needed Abhimanyu was indeed 16 because Soma did not wish for his son incarnate to live beyond 16 years on earth and Drona was 85 because text says so and Then Bhishma will have to be two generations prior around 150 years old because he had recieved IcchaMrityu from his father.

But if you guys are using logic then we'll.....

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I have heard that both krishna and arjun were of 90yrs (with few months gap)at the time of war and abhimanyu was of 36yrs old.But definitely abhimanyu was not 16.

Exactly you got my point.

If you want to calculate correct age of the charachter's within logical framework then you will have to ignore those statements that involve age and divinity

For eg,

Drona at 85 during war

Moon God Soma seeking his son Varchas/Abhimanyu back after 18 years.

Both do not work with logic

If discard divine magic then you are right about Pradyumna that only way an Krishna, Arjun and Pradyumna can be in the same generation if Pradyumna is not biological child of Krishna but an adult adopted by him as his son.

Harivansh gives an indication of this that Pradyumna may have been born to Vasudev's older brother Gandusha but adopted by Krishna, and Krishna's son born to Rukmini got kidnapped and killed soon after birth.

That's rational and believable and then makes sense that Abhimanyu is born 15 years or so later. He is 20s at the time of war, Arjun and Krishna in their 50s,

Arjun at 50s however cannot be consistent with Drona at 85. Because of Kripa Kripi and Vicjitravirya

Drona at 85 makes Kripacharya 5 to 10 years younger because Kripa has a twin kripi same age as him who is Drona's wife. She has to be younger as was the norm in those days.

Which messes up Vicjitravirya, Pandu and Arjun's timeline.

If Vicjitravirya, Kripa and Kripi are born in the same year then Drona becomes older than Vicjitravirya by atleast 5 years. So Adult vicjitravirya has Pandu (20 yrs) ± Adult Pandu has Arjun (25 yrs) + Arjun at his 50 during war makes

5+20+25= 50 years gap between Drona and Arjun

Also How old will be Ashwatthama then, he has to be atleast Pandu's generation, if his wife is Vicjitravirya's generation even if he was born very late and he was still learning archery with Arjuna.

How old will be Bhishma who was an adult as per the epic when Vicjitravirya, Kripa etc were born.

Therefore if Arjun is in his 50s during war then Drona cannot be 85 he has to be 100 at the very least

What further complicates the timelines are statements like

Arjun had Gandeev for 33 years during Virat war

There was a 12 year exile for him after he became an adult and only after that Abhimanyu was born.

They had 13 year exile after Dyut Sabha

When you consider all these numbers you should throw logic away because then Drona and Bhishma get into 150 and 180 during war and that is not logical.

Anyone says people in Dwapar had 200 year life span are using faith as a reason not logic.

So my suggestion again either follow faith and accept all the age and year numbers as is.

Or follow logic and ignore all these age and year numbers completely and make your own timeline. just like can be done if Krishna adopts an Adult Pradyumna

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Also they are clearly mentioned working in Rajsuya yagya -

'The powerful Dhrishtadyumna followed without loss of time king Virata: and Dhananjaya followed the illustrious and mighty charioteer Yajnasena; and the mighty Bhimasena followed Bhishma and Dhritarashtra: and Sahadeva, that master of battle, followed the brave Drona and his son; and Nakula, O king, followed Suvala with his son; and the sons of Draupadi with the son of Subhadra followed those mighty warriors--the kings of the mountainous countries.

Note that Upapandavas are not mentioned during wedding celebration of Subhadra and Arjuna, so maybe they were born after Arjuna's exile or were too Young to participate in celebration

Ghatothkach had a son who fought in the war

Even If 33 is wrong, Its just difficult for me to believe that Abhimanyu and Upapandavas were teenager

Anyway, I concede this here

My point was that Arjuna was definitely a part of Abhimanyu's childhood, even if for 10 years, he did teach him and Upapandavas, so he wasn't a father only in 'name'

Here you're conveniently stopping calculating Arjuna's age ar Abhimayu's death, without checking prior incidents to see how old would Arjuna have been at swayamvar, gurdakshina war etc., if your calculations are true. You're also calculating as though they lived in a vacuum without other people around such as Bheeshma, Drona etc. who would've been in mid 100s by war.

I won't repeat any of my calculations, because people can fairly easily check back.

If you account for the idea they lived in a real world, no Arjuna not 33. At the most early 20s.

^^^ that's what I said, Abhimanyu at the time of war asshould have been around 24-25, Arjun around 50 and Bheeshm+Dron around 95-98.

Not everything can be literal in a poem (which Mahabharata is.) People use the words which suits the best to go with flow. Not necessarily the people used the exact same words that we know, those words are changed ensuring the meaning remains same. Aside there is also something like poetic exaggeration, if for example I say I heard a thousand blended notes doesn't mean I counted that there were thousand notes, it's just a way to say that there were a lot of notes that I heard

16 here refers to Abhimanyu being a kid in front of the warriors who attacked him

33 years with Gandeev refers to the concern of Dhritrashtra about Arjun having become a pro with the use of Gandeev after using it for so long

85 refers to how aged Dronacharya was.

None of those are literal numbers

To give an example from recent history

In Bihar there was a kind Kunwar Singh who fought the first war of independence with British at old age. He was 76 during 1857, but the song of his Itihas is nabbe baras me chadhal jawaani meaning he became like a youth at the age of 90

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Here you're conveniently stopping calculating Arjuna's age ar Abhimayu's death, without checking prior incidents to see how old would Arjuna have been at swayamvar, gurdakshina war etc., if your calculations are true. You're also calculating as though they lived in a vacuum without other people around such as Bheeshma, Drona etc. who would've been in mid 100s by war.

I won't repeat any of my calculations, because people can fairly easily check back.

If you account for the idea they lived in a real world, no Arjuna not 33. At the most early 20s.

I already told you, according to your and my calculations Arjun's age does not change back in time, it increases during the war

I gave you an example of it -

Arjun - 45 and Abhimanyu - 23 is your calculation

That was your calculation, I just told you that in 33 years time frame

Arjuna = 55 and Abhimanyu = 33

55-33 = 22

You see their age is not changing back in time, it is increasing during the war

Arjuna being 45 and Abhimanyu being 23 is accepted by you and I told you how my calculation is working, Arjun remains 22 either ways, so there's no point of sending him in diapers with changes in calculations, because I am not decreasing numbers

Now, I don't think Arjun was only 22 when Abhimanyu was born, even younger when he met Subhadra and it doesn't go with Arjun's education, Guru dakshina, lac house time, Ekachakra time, Draupadi Swayamvar, Building indraprastha and Arjun's exile (12 months or 12 years whichever one picks)

Bheeshma was Arjun's grandfather, He was already an adult or teenager when he took the oath for his father, then in any case Bheeshma was in early 20s by the time Vichitraveerya was born, add years of Vichitraveerya being old enough to be married (16-24), Here Bheeshma is already 36-44, now add birth and adulthood of Dhritarashtra and Pandu, as you said Pandu married late then even if I let go of the age difference and years here and there, Bheeshma is already 60-68, For Bheeshma to be 90 during the war, I have to make Arjuna 30 by the time of war

Arjuna 30 in war is a little weird

Now the problem is Drona's age, He went to school with Drupad, was Drupad from Bheeshma's generation or Dhritrastra's generation?

That Kripa - Kripi being Vichitraveerya's age and Drona being older than them again makes it difficult for Arjuna to be more than 30, which also makes Drupad older than Dhritarashtra and Vichitraveerya

That's why I don't take these old people in consideration while calculating age of young people, I don't believe someone can do what Drona did at the age of 85, biology doesn't allow an 85 years old man to be faster and better than someone who is at his prime, so I am already giving them a leeway and it's a completely different discussion because the epic has a consensus of old people being stronger than young people that's how it is written, but biology doesn't allow old people to be stronger than young

Coming to Abhimanyu's age -

How much do I have to ignore for him to be a teenager?

Bheem's grandson

Arjun training him

Rajyasu Yagya

Even if he was 24, then according to accepted timeline, Arjun was with him for 11 years, so not only a father in name

One more thing, Krishna, Drupad, Dhrishtdumya raised Draupadi's kids too, how come they are not called Krishna, Drupad and Dhrishtadyumna's son?

The discussion was about Vyasa calling Krishna, Abhimanyu's father because Arjuna was his father only in name, it wasn't about Abhimanyu being 33, that was just a number like Drona being 85

I think we could go with Drupad being elder than Vichitraveer. In this case maybe Draupadi was born after Drupad's defeat in GuruDakshina war

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

This was not directed to you, your message came while I was responding to the comment I wished to

Anyhow Kshatriyas were of many clans and different clans did have different rules. Cousin marriage for example was completely forbidden in Suryavanshis but so wasn't the rule in Yadavs. Chandravanshis did take daughters from first cousins but avoided sending their daughters to first cousins. Different clans different types

Even the Lichhavis are called Kshatriyas the father in law of Buddha was her mother's brother while his wife I.e. hiw mother in law was the sister of his father. Hence that rule which you said isn't valid here

How exactly did that work? I'm assuming here that both branches are Chandravanshis. Take Krishna and Bhadra. If Bhadra was a daughter of one of Vasudev's sisters, then why would her parents agree to her marryihng Krishna, since that would involve violating the above rule?

Also, when Krishna abducted Mitravindya (Rukmini style), he was actively opposed by his cousins Vinda and Anuvinda. While they were indeed his enemies, like Rukmi was, wouldn't they have raised that rule w/ Mitravindya?

Originally posted by: surabhi01

Because yaudheya did not fight on behalf of pandav. He fight on behalf of kaurav in mahabharat war

Which text exactly has that?

^^^ Krishna and Bhardra are both Yaduvanshi Yadavas. They had repeated cousin marriages. The Chandravanshis are different

The Kauravas and Pandavas were true Chandravanshis. They for example were fine with taking Subhadra into their family by marriage but Dushhala for example couldn't have been married to Shakuni's son.