Balaram on Dice Game - Page 3

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Posted: 5 years ago
#21

Originally posted by: NoraSM


That's what I wanted to know, if the rules in Dyut actually allowed Yudi to leave or not because till yesterday I thought he played because he couldn't stop the game in the middle.


Actually, It is quite weird how Krishna, Satyaki, Balaram, Even Drupad do not mention what happened to Draupadi, Drupad asked their messenger to tell people in Hastinapur about the hardship Pandavas have faced in these 13 years but he doesn't say anything about his daughter who faced the same/worse fate in both Dyut and Vanvas with assaults and abduction


Balaram was 😯, I don't have words, Never liked him


OK. I went on a reading spree😆.


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03012.htm

'In that assembly of heroes Vasudeva then spake unto the weeping Draupadi as follows, 'O fair lady, the wives of those with whom thou art angry, shall weep even like thee, beholding their husbands dead on the ground, weltering in blood and their bodies covered with the arrows of Vivatsu! Weep not, lady, for I will exert to the utmost of my powers for the sons of Pandu! I promise thou shalt (once more) be the queen of kings! The heavens might fall, or the Himavat might split, the earth might be rent, or the waters of the ocean might dry up, but my words shall never be futile!'


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03118.htm

While he was acting thus,

p. 253

information reached both Valarama and Krishna that the king was practising penances of a most austere form and these two leaders of the entire Vrishni tribe accompanied with troops came to Yudhishthira of Ajamidha's race. And when the Vrishnis beheld that the sons of Pandu lay down on the ground, their bodies besmeared all over with dirt and when they beheld the daughter of Drupada in a sad state, their grief was great and they could not refrain from breaking out in loud lamentations. Then the king, whose courage was such that misfortune never could cast him down, cordially met Rama and Krishna and Samva, Krishna's son, and the grand-son of Sini and other Vrishnis, and paid honour to them in a suitable form.


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03119.htm

This daughter of a king, who is a great soldier when mounted on a car, took her rise from beneath the altar, during the pomp of sacrificial rites. She hath been always accustomed to a life of happiness; how is she now enduring this exceedingly miserable life in this wood


This was Balram. For once, he had some sympathy for Panchali.


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03182.htm

When the population of Kuru-jangala beheld Krishna outraged in the assembly hall, who but yourself could brook that conduct, O Pandu's son, which was so repugnant both to virtue and usage? No doubt, you will, before long, rule over men in a praiseworthy way, all your desires being fulfilled. Here are we prepared to chastise the Kurus, as soon as the stipulation made by you is fully performed!


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05082.htm

The mighty-armed Kesava then spoke, comforting her in these words, 'Soon wilt thou, O Krishna, behold the ladies of Bharata's race weep as thou dost. Even they, O timid one, will weep like thee, their kinsmen and friends being slain. They with whom, O lady, thou art angry, have their kinsmen and warriors already slain. With Bhima and Arjuna and the twins, at Yudhishthira's command, and agreeably to fate, and what hath been ordained by the Ordainer, I will accomplish all this. Their hour having arrived, the sons

p. 171

of Dhritarashtra, if they do not listen to my words, will surely lie down on the earth turned as morsels of dogs and jackals. The mountains of Himavat might shift their site, the Earth herself might spilt into a hundred fragments, the firmament itself with its myriads of stars might fall down, still my words can never be futile. Stop thy tears, I swear to thee, O Krishna, soon wilt thou see thy husbands, with their enemies slain, and with prosperity crowning them.'"


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07194.htm

Dragging the wife Draupadi to the assembly, thy foes insulted her.


This was Bheema


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07196.htm

that preceptor, who with his son, sat indifferently, without answering, when Krishna in such distress, dragged into the assembly and sought to be made a slave, asked him to say the truth,


Even Yudhishtira said stuff😆


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08001.htm

he Suta's son (Karna), and king Suyodhana and Duhshasana and Shakuni, in special, could not compose themselves to sleep. Those four passed that night together in Duryodhana's tent, reflecting upon the woes they had inflicted upon the high-souled Pandavas. Formerly they had brought Draupadi, plunged into woe on account of the match at dice, into the assembly. Recollecting it they experienced great regret, their hearts being filled with anxiety.


From the enemy


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08073.htm

(Thou rememberest also) the harsh and bitter words that Karna cruelly said unto Krishna in the (Kuru) assembly, in the presence of the Pandavas and Kurus, 'The Pandavas, O Krishna, are dead! They have sunk into eternal hell! O thou of large hips, choose other lords now, O thou of sweet speeches! Enter now the abode of Dhritarashtra as a serving woman, for, O thou of curving eye-lashes, thy husbands are no more! The Pandavas will not, O Krishna, be of any service to thee today! Thou art the wife of men that are slaves, O princess of Pancala, and thou art thyself, O beautiful lady, a slave! Today only Duryodhana is regarded as the one king on earth; all other kings of the world are worshipping the agency by which his administration is kept up. Behold now, O amiable one, how all the sons of Pandu have equally fallen! Overwhelmed by the energy of Dhritarashtra's son, they are now silently eyeing one another. It is evident that they are all sesame seeds without kernel, and have sunk into hell. They will have to serve the Kaurava (Duryodhana), that king of kings, as his slaves.' Even these were the foul words that that wretch, viz., the sinful Karna of exceedingly wicked heart, spoke on that occasion, in thy hearing, O Bharata!


Krishna, again


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08083.htm

"O wretch amongst men, here I drink thy life-blood from thy throat. Filled with joy, abuse us once more, saying 'beast, beast' (as thou didst before)." And he continued, "They that danced at us then, saying, 'beast, beast,' even we will dance at them now, repeating their own words. Our sleep at the palace at Pramanakoti, the administration of deadly poison to our food, the bites of black cobras, the setting fire to the house of lac, the robbing of our kingdom by gambling, our exile in the woods, the cruel seizure of Draupadi's beautiful tresses, the strokes of shafts and weapons in battle, our miseries at home, the other kinds of sufferings we endured at Virata's abode, all these woes borne by us through the counsels of Shakuni and Duryodhana and Radha's son, proceeded from thee as their cause. Through the wickedness of Dhritarashtra and his son, we have endured all these woes. Happiness has never been ours." Having said these words, O king, the victorious Vrikodara, once more spoke these words unto Keshava and Arjuna. Indeed, bathed in blood, with blood flowing from his wounds, with face exceedingly red, filled with great wrath, Bhimasena endued with great activity, said these words, "Ye heroes, that which I had vowed in respect of Duhshasana in battle, I have accomplished today.


Bheema


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08091.htm

"Sanjaya said, 'Then Vasudeva, stationed on the car, addressed Karna, saying, "By good luck it is, O son of Radha, that thou rememberest virtue! It is generally seen that they that are mean, when they sink into distress, rail at Providence but never at their own misdeeds. Thyself and Suyodhana and Duhshasana and Shakuni, the son of Subala, had caused Draupadi, clad in a single piece of raiment, to be brought into the midst of the assembly. On that occasion, O Karna, this virtue of thine did not manifest itself. When at the assembly Shakuni, an adept in dice, vanquished Kunti's son Yudhishthira who was unacquainted with it, whither had this virtue of thine gone? When the Kuru king (Duryodhana), acting under thy counsels, treated Bhimasena in that way with the aid of snakes and poisoned food, whither had this virtue of thine then gone? When the period of exile into the woods was over as also the thirteenth year, thou didst not make over to the Pandavas their kingdom. Whither had this virtue of thine then gone? Thou didst set fire to the house of lac at Varanavata for burning to death the sleeping Pandavas. Whither then, O son of Radha, had this virtue of thine gone? Thou laughedest at Krishna while she stood in the midst of the assembly, scantily dressed because in her season and obedient to Duhshasana's will, whither, then, O Karna, had this virtue of thine gone? When from the apartment reserved for the females innocent Krishna was dragged, thou didst not interfere. Whither, O son of Radha, had this virtue of thine gone? Thyself addressing the princess Draupadi, that lady whose tread is as dignified as that of the elephant, in these words, viz., 'The Pandavas, O Krishna, are lost. They have sunk into eternal hell. Do thou choose another husband!' thou lookedest on the scene with delight. Whither then, O Karna, had this virtue of thine gone? Covetous of kingdom and relying on the ruler of the Gandharvas, thou summonedest the Pandavas (to a match of dice). Whither then had this virtue of thine gone? When many mighty car-warriors, encompassing the boy Abhimanyu in battle, slew him, whither had this virtue of thine then gone? If this virtue that thou now invokest was nowhere on those occasions, what is the use then of parching thy palate now, by uttering that word? Thou art now for the practice of virtue, O Suta, but thou shalt not escape with life. Like Nala who was defeated by Pushkara with the aid of dice but who regained his kingdom by prowess, the Pandavas, who are free from cupidity, will recover their kingdom by the prowess of their arms, aided with all their friends. Having slain in battle their powerful foes, they, with the Somakas, will recover their kingdom. The Dhartarashtras will meet with destruction at the hands of those lions among men (viz., the sons of Pandu), that are always protected by virtue!'"


This was 3 days after Abhimanyu's death. Krishna definitely had some anger inside him about the assault on Panchali.


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m09/m09005.htm

While clad in a single raiment and in her season, the princess Krishna was treated cruelly by Duhshasana in the midst of the assembly and before the eyes of all. Those scorchers of foes, the Pandavas, who still remember the naked Draupadi plunged into distress, can never be dissuaded from battle.

"'"Then again, Krishna, the daughter of Drupada, is in sorrow, undergoing the austerest of penances for my destruction and the success of the objects cherished by her husbands, and sleepeth every day on the bare ground, intending to do so till the end of the hostilities is attained. Abandoning honour and pride, the uterine sister of Vasudeva (Subhadra) is always serving Draupadi as veritable waiting woman.


From Suyodhana. He mentions disrobing.


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m09/m09059.htm

Having attained to the other shores of those fierce hostilities, Vrikodara once more laughingly said these words slowly unto Yudhishthira and Keshava and Srinjaya and Dhananjaya and the two sons of Madri, "They that had dragged Draupadi, while ill, into the assembly and had disrobed her there, behold those Dhartarashtras slain in battle by the Pandavas through the ascetic penances of Yajnasena's daughter! Those wicked-hearted sons of king Dhritarashtra who had called us 'Sesame seeds without kernel,' have all been slain by us with their relatives and followers! It matters little whether (as a consequence of those deeds) we go to heaven or fall into hell!"


Bheema, again. He also mentions disrobing.


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m09/m09061.htm

On the occasion also of the gambling, thou hadst persecuted the daughter of Yajnasena, while in her season, in the midst of the assembly!


Krishna to Suyodhana.


None of the other Yadavas talk about it, but neither do they talk about Kunti who was one of their own. Plus, Balram wanted to join Suyodhana in spite of his own sister being on the other side.


_______________________________________


Drupada was never a good father to Panchali. After Yudhishtira says Arjuna cannot marry until Yudhishtira does, Drupada says he doesn't care who married her.


________________________________________


Dhrishtadyumna most definitely cared.


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03012.htm

"Dhrishtadyumna said, 'I will slay Drona, Sikhandin will slay the grandfather. And Bhimasena will slay Duryodhana, and Dhananjaya will slay Karna. And, O sister, assisted by Rama and Krishna, we are invincible in battle by even the slayer himself of Vritra--what are the sons of Dhritarashtra?'

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07194.htm

I forgive all the faults of thy speech, O Arjuna, for the sake of Draupadi and Draupadi's children and not for any other reason.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07195.htm

m. O Satyaki, Draupadi also was persecuted by them unrighteously.

NoraSM thumbnail
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Posted: 5 years ago
#22

^^^ Why?

Did my post insinuated that I don't believe that Draupadi was assaulted?


I was just referring to this particular section where Krishna, Balaram, Satyaki and Drupad are having a pity party for pandavas but they don't mention what happened to draupadi


I figured it could be because they are talking about peace offering and if you include what happened with Draupadi, there can't be any talk of peace


Or because Upa-Pandavas and Abhimanyu were there and maybe they didn't know what happened with Draupadi



I never doubted it


Adding to that list


Arjun mentions it in front of Karna during virat war



'Do thou now, O Radha's son, contending with me in the sight of the Kurus, make good what thou hadst said before in disregard of myself. Thou who hadst witnessed Panchala's princess outraged by villains in the midst of the court,


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m04/m04060.htm


Shalya mentions it in front of Yudhistir


Whatever troubles were suffered by thee together with Draupadi on the occasion of the game at dice, the rude inhuman words uttered by the Suta's son, the misery inflicted by the Asura Jata and by Kichaka, O illustrious one, all the miseries experienced by Draupadi, like those formerly experienced by Damayanti,--will all, O hero, end in joy.


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05008.htm

Edited by NoraSM - 5 years ago
Chiillii thumbnail
11th Anniversary Thumbnail Visit Streak 90 Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 5 years ago
#23

No Rukmi did not cheat. Balrama lost because he did the same mistake Yudhishtir did. Went up drunk in his ego against a calm and better player.

He could not bear it and killed the guy. But he was advising Yudhishtir to seek peace . A hypocrite. Balrama was drunk fool and a bully who sided with Duryodhan because he was exactly like him in nature.

1123225 thumbnail
Posted: 5 years ago
#24

Originally posted by: NoraSM

^^^ Why?

Did my post insinuated that I don't believe that Draupadi was assaulted?


I was just referring to this particular section where Krishna, Balaram, Satyaki and Drupad are having a pity party for pandavas but they don't mention what happened to draupadi


I figured it could be because they are talking about peace offering and if you include what happened with Draupadi, there can't be any talk of peace


Or because Upa-Pandavas and Abhimanyu were there and maybe they didn't know what happened with Draupadi



I never doubted it


Adding to that list


Arjun mentions it in front of Karna during virat


Shalya mentions it in front of Yudhistir


I actually started reading only to point out Krishna's out of control words each time the assault is mentioned. I mean... he swears genocide in Kamyaka and I think in Virat also.


Then, the tirade at Karna... Krishna raged about an assault which happened more than 13 years ago than the death of his nephew which happened merely 3 days prior.


As for the pity party for the Pandavas... Krishna was a savvy man. The Pandavas clearly weren't moved enough by the assault to even mention it. he likely brought up what would hurt. Anyone else can be accused of not putting Panchali's interests at the forefront, but not Krishna.


Also, Dhristadyumna made it quite clear he was in it for his sister.

NoraSM thumbnail
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Posted: 5 years ago
#25

Originally posted by: Chiillii

No Rukmi did not cheat. Balrama lost because he did the same mistake Yudhishtir did. Went up drunk in his ego against a calm and better player.

He could not bear it and killed the guy. But he was advising Yudhishtir to seek peace . A hypocrite. Balrama was drunk fool and a bully who sided with Duryodhan because he was exactly like him in nature.

I don't know about this incident so I looked it up, this person has illustrated the incident from 3 different sources all say that Balaram had won and Rukmi cheated


http://mahabharata-resources.org/harivamsa/vishnuparva/killingofrukmi.html


That's what happens when you call out people for cheating, one won't take the blame easily and this resulted in a duel at least in the west till Duels were ruled illegal

NoraSM thumbnail
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Posted: 5 years ago
#26

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar


I actually started reading only to point out Krishna's out of control words each time the assault is mentioned. I mean... he swears genocide in Kamyaka and I think in Virat also.


Then, the tirade at Karna... Krishna raged about an assault which happened more than 13 years ago than the death of his nephew which happened merely 3 days prior.


As for the pity party for the Pandavas... Krishna was a savvy man. The Pandavas clearly weren't moved enough by the assault to even mention it. he likely brought up what would hurt. Anyone else can be accused of not putting Panchali's interests at the forefront, but not Krishna.


Also, Dhristadyumna made it quite clear he was in it for his sister.

I didn't accuse anyone, I read this part and when you mentioned Draupadi's name in your post it struck me that none has mentioned her so far and I wrote it

731627 thumbnail
Posted: 5 years ago
#27

Is there really any Rule or option that yudhishthir can change partner. I have not seen nor heard any where that if somone is loosing he can change partner


And if yudhishthir change partner then should not game start from beginning again .? Then will it not be waste of time ?


And can new partner play game from middle and if new patner can play from middle then would it not unfair to yudhishthir because yudhishthir is playing game from beginning and if new partner would play game from middle then new partner would have also easily win because shakuni have already move pieces very farther than yudhishthir pieces then it would have take no time for new partner to put pieces in home


And will suppose if yudhishthir want to change partner but will like shakuni like to change partner ?


And if suppose shakuni agree that yudhishthir can change partner then will shakuni return all that thing to yudhishthir which shakuni won through dice?

I don't think it easy to change partner thing would have more complicated

Agni_Jytsona thumbnail
Posted: 5 years ago
#28

Adding on to krishna remembering krishnaa s assault

Here is another one -

--I mean those dull-headed fools who have been assembled together by Dhritarashtra's son, and who are already under the clutches of death. Look once more at that vilest of all their acts,--the conduct of the Kurus in the council-hall. That those Kurus, at whose head stood Bhishma did not interfere when the beloved wife of the sons of Pandu, daughter of Drupada, of fare fame, pure life, and conduct worthy of praise, was seized, while weeping, by that slave of

p. 50

lust. The Kurus all, including young and old, were present there. If they had then prevented that indignity offered to her, then I should have been pleased with Dhritarashtra's behaviour. It would have been for the final good of his sons also. Dussasana forcibly took Krishna into the midst of the public hall wherein were seated her fathers-in-law. Carried there, expecting sympathy, she found none to take her part, except Vidura. The kings uttered not a word of protest, solely because they were a set of imbeciles. Vidura alone spoke words of opposition, from a sense of duty,--words conceived in righteousness addressed to that man (Duryodhana) of little sense. Thou didst not, O Sanjaya, then say what law and morality were, but now thou comest to instruct the son of Pandu! Krishna, however, having repaired to the hall at that time made everything right, for like a vessel in the sea, she rescued the Pandavas as also herself, from that gathering ocean (of misfortunes)! Then in that hall, while Krishna stood, the charioteer's son addressed her in the presence of her fathers-in-law saying, 'O Daughter of Drupada thou hast no refuge. Better betake thyself as a bond-woman to the house of Dhritarashtra's son. Thy husbands, being defeated, no longer exist. Thou hast a loving soul, choose some one else for thy lord.' This speech, proceeding from Karna, was a wordy arrow, sharp, cutting all hopes, hitting the tenderest parts of the organisation, and frightful. It buried itself deep in Arjuna's heart. When the sons of Pandu were about to adopt the garments made of the skins of black deer, Dussasana spoke the following pungent words, 'These all are mean eunuchs, ruined, and damned for a lengthened time.' And Sakuni, the king of the Gandhara land, spoke to Yudhishthira at the time of the game of dice the following words by way of a wily trick, 'Nakula hath been won by me from you, what else have you got? Now you should better stake your wife Draupadi'. You know, O Sanjaya, all these words of an approbrious kind which were spoken at the time of the game of dice


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05029.htm


Another one

When the population of Kuru-jangala beheld Krishna outraged in the assembly hall, who but yourself could brook that conduct,

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03182.htm

NoraSM thumbnail
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Posted: 5 years ago
#29

Originally posted by: surabhi01

Is there really any Rule or option that yudhishthir can change partner. I have not seen nor heard any where that if somone is loosing he can change partner


And if yudhishthir change partner then should not game start from beginning again .? Then will it not be waste of time ?


And can new partner play game from middle and if new patner can play from middle then would it not unfair to yudhishthir because yudhishthir is playing game from beginning and if new partner would play game from middle then new partner would have also easily win because shakuni have already move pieces very farther than yudhishthir pieces then it would have take no time for new partner to put pieces in home


And will suppose if yudhishthir want to change partner but will like shakuni like to change partner ?


And if suppose shakuni agree that yudhishthir can change partner then will shakuni return all that thing to yudhishthir which shakuni won through dice?

I don't think it easy to change partner thing would have more complicated


Balaram's words insinuate that Yudi challenged Sakuni


I don't really know rules of dice, that's why created this post

Chiillii thumbnail
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Posted: 5 years ago
#30

There was absolutely no cheating in Dyut game, neither were there any rules that prevented Yudhishtir from walking away.

Players were free to either play by themselves or designate a proxy.


Now do note the timing of Dyut challenge, it was done after Rajasuya where Yudhishtir was coronated as emperor.

Rajasuya is not just yagya and feast.

Rajasuya is preceded by the kings army winning over all the territories.

During the Rajasuya chariot races, wrestling and other matches are also organized where the emperor designates his representatives who have to win to again showcase his supremacy.

Gambling match was also a part of the protocol.

Though it didn't happen then, but an elder in the family hosting it was ritual or tradition being followed and Yudhishtir had an oath that he will never refuse his elders that he made in front of Vyasa just after Rajasuya

So he did have to participate. He however was free to designate a proxy.

But he presumed that it would be Duryodhan against him. He was confident that he could defeat Duryodhan because it was gambling and not mace fight so he accepted the challenge. In the last minute Durydodhan brought Shakuni as proxy.


Yudhishtir still had the option of designating a proxy too. But he didn't hoping that it's just ritual and not a serious game they may win some wealth and end it with a last stake that Yudhishtir will win as an emperor.

Yudhishtir states in vanaparva that he went with an intention to win the Dyut and Hastinapur.

He meant as an emperor,


But once Yudhishtir started losing everything he must have realised he is being fooled and he walked in to a trap. But his ego and vanity and pride made him continue. He was now an emperor losing miserably in front of everyone, if he walked away he will become laughing stock in front of the whole world forever.

He was hoping at somepoint this will end, either Kouravas wouldn't dare or atleast elders will put an end to it, he will get the final stake and walk away as emperor.

He was wrong.


However Shakuni did not cheat, he did not have to cheat. Even the dice was not rigged at all. Shakuni played fair. Rules were also fair. It was just that Shakuni was Virat Kohli of Dyut and Yudhishtir was a novice who played Dyut like an occassionaly gully cricket player.

It was first Yudhishtir's stupidity and then his ego which was responsible for what happened

Edited by Chiillii - 5 years ago

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