Your thoughts on... Karn? - Page 27

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.Lonewalker. thumbnail
Posted: 4 years ago

@Roshanloverria We were discussing Karn, as he has been depicted in Mahabharata, the original Mahabharata by Vyasa. People in this thread have provided enough citation to back up their points from authentic versions of Mahabharata available to read, mostly KMG & Bibek Debroy's translation of CE Mahabharata by BORI. Aap mano ya na mano, those are the most authentic version of Mahabharata in terms of accuracy.

These tv serials have whitewashed & glorified Karn because that's how they earn trp. We were not discussing tv serials' Karn, because he is not the Karn Vyasa had created.

In original Mahabharata, neither Draupadi insulted Karn by saying she will not marry a Suta nor did she insult Duryodhan with that Andhe Ka Putra Andha comment. In original Mahabharata, Draupadi is the central female character & she is not this insensitive like these tv serials show. Also, in original Mahabharata, Karn has always been depicted as an antagonist. He is not someone so goody goody like these tv serials show. He is in the same league of Duryodhan tbh. 

If you want to argue in favour of Karn, at least provide some citations from some authentic version of Mahabharata. This thread's main discussion topic was how these tv serials have distorted the original story and twisted things to glorify Karn and you are doing the same thing. You are not getting the point of this thread at all.

HearMeRoar thumbnail
Posted: 4 years ago

So many opinions from the Karna person and very few facts!


• Karna was a lower caste boy. Wrong!

Karna's adoptive father, Athiratha,  was of Suta caste which is an intercaste of Kshatriya father and Brahmin mother.

NOTE: SUTA ≠ SHUDRA

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu/manu10.htm


• Sutas could only dive chariots. Wrong!

Suta were story tellers (Ugrasrava), charioteers (Adhirath), ministers (Sanjaya), generals (Keechak), queens (Sudeshna - queen of Matsya), kings (Anga was ruled by Suta descended from Suta king Vijaya). They were free to choose an occupation that interested them.

Santi Parva: Rajadharmanusasana Parva: Section II


• His adoptive father was a charioteer. Wrong!

Athiratha was a prince of the Ikshvaku dynasty, descended from Dasharath. He might have been king, I think, of Anga


chitra-ratha's son is → dasha-ratha … whose daughter is shAnta, who is given to the son of sage vibhANDaka, namely sage R^ishya- shR^i~Nga; dasha-ratha’s son is → catura~Nga whose descent is at the grace of sage R^ishya- shR^i~Nga, who conducted a vedic ritual called putra-kAmeShTi on behalf of dasha-ratha to effectuate the birth of chatura~na; from chatura~Nga → pR^ithula-akSha → champa; this king champa’s capital is champA-puri, aka mAlini-puri; he begot one prince called harya~Nga 

...

This is the patriline from harya~Nga → bR^ihat-karmA → bR^ihad-darbha → bR^ihat-manAH → jayadratha → 

...

 O king janamejaya, king jayadratha is born of lady yashodevi. And from lady satya is born the celebrated king vijaya, who by his equanimity of mind and other qualities is superior to the brAhmaNa-s and by heroism and other accomplishments, is superior to the kshatriya-s...

vijaya's son is dhR^iti whose son is dhR^ita-vrata. His son is the highly illustrious satya-karma...

The son of satya-vrata through a brAhmaNa lady is a sUta - because of the rule: brAhmaNyAm kshatriya jAtaH sUta iti abhidhIyate -

 

and this mighty chariot-warrior draws the suffix of ratha in his name from the very same dynasty of kshatriya-s with –ratha suffix, and he is called athi-ratha, who later adopted the son of lady kunti, namely karNa as his son. It is therefore karNa is called the son of a charioteer... the family of the highly powerful karNa has thus been described. karNa's son is vR^iSha-sena whose son is vR^iSha... 

http://mahabharata-resources.org/harivamsa/hv_1_31.html


the child contained in the basket came to the city of Champa ruled by a person of the Suta tribe. Indeed, the excellent coat of mail and those ear-rings made of Amrita 

http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-mbh-03:section-306


 Vaisampayana said, And it came to pass that at this time a Suta named Adhiratha, who was a friend of Dhritarashtra, came to the river Ganga, accompanied by his wife. And, O king, his wife named Radha was unparalleled on earth for beauty. And although that 

http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-mbh-03:section-307


• He was poor, Wrong!

His given name was Vasusena, which means “rich,” because he was rich. When Kunti sent him off on his boat ride, he was loaded with valuable stuff.


Then the well-known husband of Radha, of the Suta caste, took up the child thus cast into the water, and he and his wife brought him up as their own son.And Radha and her husband bestowed on him the name of Vasusena born with wealth because he was born with a natural armour and ear-rings. 

http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-mbh-01:section-111


• So how did Athiratha become Dhritharashtra’s charioteer?

After Pandu married Kunti, he starts on his Digvijay. He reaches Madradesh and marries Madri, installs her in Hastinapuri.

Then he continues on his campaign. Now, Anga/Chapa/Malini is not mentioned in his campaign, but the image shows how close he got. 

http://ancientvoice.wdfiles.com/local--files/travel:pandu-s-travels/PandusMilitaryExpedition.jpg


And we know from the Rangbhumi episode, Anga was under Hastinapuri. Malini was later donated to Karna by Jarasandh, so that part was definitely annexed by him.


The following link shows what a BRUTAL conqueror Pandu was. He slaughtered the royalty of every kingdom captured by him. My guess is that, on account of his friendship with Dhritharashtra, Athiratha was allowed to live, and he chose to be a charioteer because that was the one thing he knew well.

http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-mbh-01:section-113


• Karna was denied weapons training due to his caste. Wrong!


The Vrishnis and the Andhakas, and princes from various lands, and the adopted son of Radha of the Suta caste, Karna, all became pupils of Drona.

http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-mbh-01:section-134


See whose name is not mentioned here even though Vrishnis are? Krishna! That’s right. The only one who wasn’t part of the elite group was KRISHNA. 


Karna was accepted by Drona as his student, only one specific weapon was denied by Drona to him that was Brahmashira as he wanted that weapon to defeat Arjun. Since Drona loved Arjun dearly and felt it was wrong to hand over a weapon of mass destruction to someone who only wanted to use it to prove his superiority he refused. Karna then went ahead to Parashuram lied to him that he was a Brahman and gained the weapon but got cursed when his truth was revealed.


• Suyodhana met Karna for the first time in Rangabhoomi and made him a king when he was humiliated by Bhima. Wrong!

Suyodhana and Karna met in Drona's gurukul; they became friends as their fathers were already friends, and Karna became rival of Arjun while Suyodhana rivalled Bhima, and this cemented their friendship.


And seeing that in process of time his son had grown up, Adhiratha sent him to the city named after the elephant. And there Karna put up with Drona, for the purpose of learning arms. And that powerful youth contracted a friendship with Duryodhana. And having acquired all the four kinds of weapons from Drona, Kripa, and Rama, he became famous in the world as a mighty bowman. And after having contracted a friendship with Dhritarashtra's son, he became intent on injuring the sons of Pritha. And he was always desirous of fighting with the high-souled Falguna. And, O king, ever since they first saw each other, Karna always used to challenge Arjuna, and Arjuna, on his part, used to challenge him.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03307.htm


And isn’t it funny that Suyodhana offers Karna his own family’s kingdom back for challenging Arjuna in Rangabhoomi? And that later Jarasandh gives back Malini, which was the other half of said kingdom?


Karna was on a campaign to win back his father’s kingdom, and he was willing to sink to any level to do it. He did it to make Suyodhana happy. See for yourselves:


For those harsh words, O Krishna, that I said before unto the sons of Pandu for the gratification of Dhritarashtra's son,--for that wicked conduct of mine,--I am consumed with repentance.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05141.htm


• Some more facts.

Karna was atleast 5 - 7 years older than Yudhishtir that means he was an adult when he conspired with Suyodhana to kill the Pandavas, Bhima, specifically.


"When that terrible poison intended for the destruction of Bhima failed of its effect, Duryodhana. Karna and Sakuni, without giving up their wicked design had recourse to numerous other contrivances for accomplishing the death of the Pandavas. And though every one of these contrivances was fully known to the Pandavas, yet in accordance with the advice of Vidura they suppressed their indignation.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01130.htm


During the Pramanakoti poisoning and other attempts after it, no one had insulted Karna for being a suta (absolutely no one, not even Pandavas), no one had denied him anything. So no enmity with Pandavas, yet. No debt to Suyodhana, yet. No injustice to him, yet.


He was an adult (18–20) to know what murder is, and he chose to support Suyodhana. And later gets his reward in the form of Anga!


It’s this crucial part before Karna enters Rangabhoomi that gets covered up that highlights the real character of Karna. The moment you read this part the hue of this character changes completely.

HearMeRoar thumbnail
Posted: 4 years ago

^The links are all to KMG translation of MBh and Harivamsa which are both freely available online at many, many different sites.


If this person wants to debate the greatness of Karna, let him/her bring citations from text.


Informed debate is always exhilarating.


But not with citations from television shows 😆.


Until I start seeing info from actual text, I will not engage further. I suggest that other posters don't, either. It is a waste of time and energy.

Edited by HearMeRoar - 4 years ago
FlauntPessimism thumbnail
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Posted: 4 years ago

Originally posted by: Roshanloverria

It's ur hate for him in Mahabharata andhe ka putra andha is mention and Karn k sirf ek galti mention h draupadi k disrobing wali uske alawa kon s mistakes k Karn n no one in Mahabharata was completely right everyone was wrong at some point par itni problem sirf Karn s h kyu Karn was cursed kyuki usne apni cast nhi shi btati thi pashuram ko to tum btao kya cast k wajah s kisi ko knowledge na Milna shi h Karn k ek glti k chakar m tum use pura blame nhi kr skti he was great manna ho to mano nhi manna to mt mana tumhara manne k kisi ko zarroat nhi h 

In Mahabharata Andhe Ka Putra andha is not mentioned at the said time although the complete scene is mentioned, it's later that Duryodhan says that Draupadi laughed at him (and he wasn't a Harischandra that he couldn't have lied) 

Karna Ka disrobe Karna "Galti" nhi hai, that's not called a mistake that is a crime. He was a part of Lakshagriha conspiracy, Bheem poisoning(remember Duryodhan and his brothers have a reason to hate and attempt to kill Bheem, Karna did it without even a reason) and all other Duryodhan's crimes. He betrayed his supposed best friend and Yuvraj by promising Kunti not to kill her four sons, he didn't even try to arrest Yudhishtir after having defeated him. His kingdom was the hub was s*X trafficking

Ye sab ek Galti hai?? Ye bahut saare crimes hain.

 Yes no one is completely right and no one is completely wrong, even Duryodhan has good qualities, but that doesn't mean we forget their crimes and make them Mahaan

Caste ki wajah se usko Kabhi knowledge nhi deny ki gayi. 

HearMeRoar thumbnail
Posted: 4 years ago

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

In Mahabharata Andhe Ka Putra andha is not mentioned at the said time although the complete scene is mentioned, it's later that Duryodhan says that Draupadi laughed at him (and he wasn't a Harischandra that he couldn't have lied) 

Karna Ka disrobe Karna "Galti" nhi hai, that's not called a mistake that is a crime. He was a part of Lakshagriha conspiracy, Bheem poisoning(remember Duryodhan and his brothers have a reason to hate and attempt to kill Bheem, Karna did it without even a reason) and all other Duryodhan's crimes. He betrayed his supposed best friend and Yuvraj by promising Kunti not to kill her four sons, he didn't even try to arrest Yudhishtir after having defeated him. His kingdom was the hub was s*X trafficking

Ye sab ek Galti hai?? Ye bahut saare crimes hain.

 Yes no one is completely right and no one is completely wrong, even Duryodhan has good qualities, but that doesn't mean we forget their crimes and make them Mahaan

Caste ki wajah se usko Kabhi knowledge nhi deny ki gayi. 


Even when Suyodhana says Draupadi laughed, he doesn't claim she said those words. That insult is a modern day interpolation.


The Karna poster is somehow implying Draupadi being proud is a problem. Why? Weren't Bheeshma, Drona, Arjuna, Karna, Bheema et al proud of their prowess? Panchali was so learned she was called Saraswati by either Vyasa or Bheeshma (I forget who). She handled the finances of the entire empire and ran a citizen grievance cell. She did plenty in her life to be proud of.

Edited by HearMeRoar - 4 years ago
FlauntPessimism thumbnail
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Posted: 4 years ago

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar


Even when Suyodhana says Draupadi laughed, he doesn't claim she said those words. That insult is a modern day interpolation.


The Karna poster is somehow implying Draupadi being proud is a problem. Why? Weren't Bheeshma, Drona, Arjuna, Karna, Bheema et al proud of their prowess/ Panchali was so learned she was called Saraswati by either Vyasa or Bheeshma (I forget who). She handled the finances of the entire empire and ran a citizen grievance cell. She did plenty in her life to be proud of.


Yes forgot to mention this. He only says about the laugh the statement is completely an addition.


Completely agreed to the second part. 


Aside if it is that someone who has a few qualities should be considered Mahaan, then I am sure if we start scanning all the books, we would definitely get at least one good quality of Dusshashan too, does than mean we start praising him

MaxMayfield thumbnail
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Posted: 4 years ago

While growing up, Mahabharat was summarized to having happened since Draupadi - the egoistic princess/ queen laughed at Duryodhan as being "andhe ka putra andha".  I can see where that poster is coming from..I remember a relative told me to never "be like Draupadi" and mock someone else, or else we will suffer consequences as her!


I feel so sick with all of that now.   Draupadi is truly an enigma, brilliant queen, a sacrificial, dutiful and loyal wife, loving towards her pupil, and a wonderful mother/ step mother and the one who protected herself when all failed to protect her..and this is what she was pinned down to by the misogynistic society.  


I dont really like Karna much..and I dont have any opinion on him..but I feel quite sick when Draupadi is called "arrogant"!

FlauntPessimism thumbnail
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Posted: 4 years ago

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

Kayi gunaa zyada ka kya matlab. Usko wahi milli jiske layak tha. Marne ke layak tha marne ke toh maar diya usko. 

Kissi bhi sadi main assault ki saza maut hi hoti hai.  Ab zyada bakwaas mat karo. Nikalo yaha se

That was pretty direct 🤣

I was trying to be diplomatic.


And true public disrobing ki saza war me mar kar Martyr Hona nhi Hoti. Usko to saza hi Mili uske gunah ki. 

.Lonewalker. thumbnail
Posted: 4 years ago

This is actually getting funny 😆😆

We were discussing a character from Mahabharata, but we are not supposed to believe what's written in actual Mahabharata 😆 We are supposed to ignore everything written in Mahabharata & believe whatever distorted version someone else is saying, even though we know that's wrong😆😆

Chalo.... I am off. And I will suggest whoever wishes to discuss seriously, discuss with people who are taking it seriously, not swooning over some self-made glossed up theories.😆

HearMeRoar thumbnail
Posted: 4 years ago

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01130.htm

"When that terrible poison intended for the destruction of Bhima failed of its effect, Duryodhana. Karna and Sakuni, without giving up their wicked design had recourse to numerous other contrivances for accomplishing the death of the Pandavas. And though every one of these contrivances was fully known to the Pandavas, yet in accordance with the advice of Vidura they suppressed their indignation.


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01144.htm

"Vaisampayana said, 'Then the son of Suvala (Sakuni), king Duryodhana, Duhsasana and Kama, in consultation with one another, formed an evil conspiracy. With the sanction of Dhritarashtra, the king of the Kurus, they resolved to burn to death Kunti and her (five) sons. 


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08038.htm

If that does not satisfy the person that discovers Arjuna to me, I will make him a more valuable gift, that, indeed, which he himself will solicit. Sons, wives and articles of pleasure and enjoyment that I have, these all I shall give him if he desires them.


This was not hyperbole. This was an outright offer.


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08040.htm

Evidence of Karna's casteism and misgyny.  It's about 6 or 7 pages long.


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08045.htm

Shalya said, "The abandonment of the afflicted and the sale of wives and children are, O Karna, prevalent amongst the Angas whose king thou art


https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05029.htm

Duryodhana is a big tree of evil passions; Karna is its trunk; Sakuni is its branches; Dussasana forms its abundant blossoms

p. 51

and fruits; (while) the wise king Dhritarashtra is its toots. 

Edited by HearMeRoar - 4 years ago