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Rashmi

@goofyCat

Sparkler

Posted: 8 years ago

#181

Such wonderful and informative discussions 👏

This 27-28 years of Maratha history from Shivaji's death to Aurangzeb's death is something that I find very fascinating. The events happening during this era were so unfortunate yet so interesting. Unfortunate because Shivaji Maharaj fought for 30-40 years to build the kingdom from scratch, survived a few huge setbacks, and everything was brutally destroyed, not just the kingdom and people, but his own family too!! At the same time it is fascinating because his heirs, not just his sons but his daughter in laws and his army fought so hard for the cause, amid the toughest situations, against a very strong army, when they didn't even have proper leader and guidance.

@Abhay, thanks for the details on relation between Yesubai and Rajaram. So now we are clear that they shared cordial bond and were fighting together against Aurangzeb and Mughals. 😊

@Maddy, I find your posts familiar and I can relate to them, most probably because our source of information is from the same books, Shriman Yogi in most of the cases.

As for the show, it is going great. The historical tracks interest me more. But the childhood incidents of Baji makes way for right blend of entertainment into the history!

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Rashmi

@goofyCat

Sparkler

Posted: 8 years ago

#182

@Maddy, such a descriptive and informative post. I usually don't have patience to write such long posts, lol. Appreciate it very much, you have explained almost everything.

To add to it, I think though Shahaji Raje could not directly help Shivaji because he was working for Nijam Shahi and Adil Shahi later, he had great influence, indirectly or even directly on everything that Shivaji Maharaj did. The two Shahis were considered to be very much shrewd and brutal, who didn't even spare their own Sardars when they did something against them or were becoming so powerful that they could become threat to their masters. There are many examples of Maratha Sardars getting killed through conspiracies, even Shahaji Raje were captured once or twice. (But since he was very strong and influential, he had to be released).

For this same reason, Shahaji could not leave his job and join or support Shivaji directly. There is one incidence where Shahaji's influence at Bijapur kingdom saved Shivaji Raje from Adil Shaha's wrath. It was during young days of Shivaji when he had just started building his own kingdom. There is also one incidence in later years (which I mentioned above), where Shahaji was captured by Adil Shaha, and Shivaji used his position and influence in Deccan to release him. The father son duo wre complementing each other so well!!

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neesha119

@neesha119

Explorer

Posted: 8 years ago

#183

Originally posted by: RadhikaS0
Someone asked why Balaji and Dhanaji shifted allegiance to Shahuji after his release.
If we see even the little snippets on this thread, there were fuzzy lines between the various players of the time - the Marathas, the Mughals, the Adilshahis, the Nizamshahis etc. Loyalties were constantly shifting and alliances were made and remade as per the exigencies of the situation. Even the foreign entities were dallied with or kicked away as per convenience. Then, as now, there was no concept of permanent friends or enemies in politics. Only attaining one's goal mattered.

Coming back to Balaji and Dhanaji, it's clear that most people considered Shahuji to be the rightful heir to the throne. They had accepted Tararani and her son as the rulers in Shahuji's absence because the throne could not be left empty - someone had to lead the Marathas in their fight against the Mughals and others and administer the kingdom. This lacuna was filled admirably by Tararani. She deserves as much praise for her capability as any male king after Shivaji Maharaj.

Things changed after Shahuji's release. One reason being that mentioned above. Second reason could be that Tararani's son was incompetent as a ruler. A third reason could be a patriarchal tendency to wish to see a king ruling the people. (Though this seems doubtful as both Balaji and Dhanaji fully accepted Tararani's capabilities as a ruler.)

What might have been the possibilities if Tararani and Shahuji had joined hands?

Hi Radhika,

Thank you so much from much for the reply. Hope you do remember me from JA forum.It was wonderful to read your posts then and now as well it gives me immense pleasure to read from persons so knowledgeable about history. Hats off to you all on this forum.Thanks for enlightening me about this subject.

However,apart from reasons mentioned by you Radhika, it was a huge risk that Balaji was carrying when he turned against Tara rani and convinced Dhanaji to side with Shahu Raje . What if Dhanaji had refused and held Balaji in captivity?

There must have been some other reason as well for going against Tara RANI , APART from the fact that Balaji thought Shahu Raje the rightful heir to the throne. Shahhuraje was a righteous person but how would Balaji assume that he was a better ruler than Tara rani?

Yes and what would have happened if Tara rani supported Shahu raje,then the Moghul strategy of divide and rue would have failed and then ruling over Marathas would never have been possible for them. But alas, Tara rani was too ambitious to let this happen.

Edited by neesha119 - 8 years ago

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Abhay

@history_geek

Rocker

+ 5

Posted: 8 years ago

#184

Transferred from here : https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/140662666

My comments in bold black below.

Originally posted by: MaddyO

Replied in bold black above.

Stone Inscription

Seal of Sambhaji

Edited by history_geek - 8 years ago

Quote

Abhay

@history_geek

Rocker

+ 5

Posted: 8 years ago

#185

Why Balaji supported Shahu Ji ?
Role of Zinat un Nissa, Dhanaji Jadhav, Parashuram Pratinidhi

Originally posted by: neesha119
Dear Abhay,
Lovely to read your posts after such a long time. Wow you are a storehouse of information. I am loving this serial and characters are etched so nicely. The best is the script .. dialogues are excellent.

Abhay you have so much knowledge so I am very curious to know why did Balaji Vishwanath take Shahu Rajes side when he was released from Mughal custody , and why did he ditch Tara rani when he was working for her.

Why did the loyalties shift? When tara rani was adding all responsibilities on him , he was coaching her son, then how come he turned against her??

Was it because Tara rani was selfish and extremely ambitious person bu yet it was deceit of her trust on him. Of course there must be reasons that Balaji detested her. She was not loved but by many people, I read.

Can you throw some light on this aspect. Just curios to know.

Thanks Neesha. Nice to see you again. All the members writing on this thread are amazingly well read in Maratha history. It is great to have all of you here.

Before i answer you, do check out the old comment on this thread. We discussed this topic earlier too. :)

Read point number 2 and 3. Link :
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/140008631

After reading above link, continue : A brother of Shivaji - Bhanji Kaka, who was in Mughal employment helped Balaji. From 1695 to 1699, Shahu ji was kept confined at banks of river Bhima. Through Bhanji Kaka, Balaji came in touch with Shahu ji and served him there ocassionaly, at that time.

So, this proves, Balaji knew Shahu ji from early times. But Shahu ji was a young child that time. I also mentioned in my old comment (link above) that Balaji had secret means through which he could contact Zinat un Nissa Begum and safe guarded interests of Shahu ji through her.

Now, why he helped Shahu ji. Let us understand.

Tara Bai, when Shahu ji was released from Mughal captivity, said - "Shivaji died in 1680. And he had asked that the kingdom will be inherited by his younger son Rajaram, not Sambhaji. Sambhaji, instead, lost the kingdom and it was her husband Rajaram who built the Maratha dominions again from 1689 till his death in 1700. And from then till 1708, she was fighting the Mughal Empire and hence the present Maratha state is the creation of Rajaram and hence her son Shivaji Raje should get the throne, because the kingdom was lost by Sambhaji and hence his son Shahu has no right to the throne."

{
She also said that the prince in Aurangzeb's custody was an imposter. In reality Tara Bai's arguments hardly made any impression on ministers because his husband Rajaram in 1689 while becoming Chatrapati had declared that he was holding the throne on behalf of his nephew Shahu ji. Also, the commanders all these years were fighting to secure release of Shahu Ji. And the masses were emotionally attached as they thought the eldest son was the rightful heir.
}

Hence, now, Tara Rani, decided to bind her ministers into her favor by asking all of them to take oath on boiled milk and rice to remain loyal to her. Such oath was not taken lightly that time. It is like giving a vachan. Many took oath. Some remained undecided but they did not protest. Except Dhanaji Jadhav and Khando Ballal, who said that they would support Tara Bai if the prince was really an imposter.

Tara Bai sent Bapuji Bhonsle to find if the Shahu in Mughal camp was real Shahu. Similarly, Dhanaji sent Khando Ballal to find the same. Khando Ballal was convinced that this was indeed the real Shahu and returned.

Parshuram Triambak

Tara Rani sent his favorite minister Parashuram Triambak (whom we see in the show daily), Dhanaji and Khando Ballal to fight Shahu ji when he was returning.

Balaji Vishwanath already knew that this was the Real Shahu. Now, Shahu ji made a plan. Through, Balaji and Khando Ballal he called Dhanaji for a secret meeting (it may be a letter not a meeting) one day before this battle, and won him to his side. They decided to wage a sham battle against Shahu the next day. So, in actual battle, Dhanaji and Khando Ballal remained inactive and Parshuram was beaten back.

As i mentioned, almost all the ministers had taken that oath on boiled milk and rice, which was not taken lightly in those days. Only Dhanaji and Khando Ballal had taken a "conditional oath" that they will support Tara Rani if this Shahu was an imposter. Hence, their oath was not broken by changing sides as this was no imposter but the real Shahu.

Shankar Malhar

Another minister, Shankarji Malhar had also taken an oath to support Tara Rani. But now he came to know this was the real Shahu. He wanted to support Shahu ji but was bound by oath to support Tara Rani. After winning the above mentioned battle , Shahu ji came along with Dhanaji, Khando Ballal and Balaji, etc. to meet Shankarji to also merge him in his party. But this man of high ideals who was oath bound, committed suicide as he could not break the oath and neither join Shahu ji despite his best intentions !! Such were the men of those times!

I hope all this gives an idea why Balaji deserted Tara Rani. Balaji was not the main player. It was Dhanaji and since Balaji was his close aide hence both sailed in the same boat. Actual rise of Balaji took place when Shahu became Chatrapati. Dhanaji died soon in 1708.

All these years the Marathas were fighting to secure release of Shahu ji. They were emotionally attached to him. Tara Rani thought that since she had given a life to the dying Maratha empire, hence her son should be the king. She was right and wrong both. As the throne was rightfully, the property of son of Sambhaji, as her late husband Rajaram had said.

Also her own ministers were jealous of each other. One of them, Ramachandra wrote to Shahu ji encouraging him to attack and take possession of throne. He was jealous of the influence of Parashuram Triambak. See this old comment on page 3 to know what the name of which sardar. I have mentioned pictures and character sketch of these ministers from the show and explained them. More is here :

https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/139935431

PS : On a related note, just after the marriage of Shahu ji, Aurangzeb opened up negotiations for release of Shahu ji through his son Kambaksh and he called meeting with Dhanaji Jadhav who was the senapati of Tara Rani Saheb. Since, Balaji was the only person on whom Dhanaji relied, hence i think, he made Balaji party to these negotiations. I hope this will be the next track in our show.

Last Few Updates on this thread :

Zinat un Nissa & Marriage of Shahu Ji and his sister / Cousins
Page 18 and 19
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/140600612

Yesu Bai stays back @ Fall of Raigad & Escape of Chatrapati Rajaram
Aurangzeb's Love Affair and Zeb un Nissa's tragic story
Page 23

https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/140714511

An Interesting narration of

Sambhaji's desertion to Mughal Camp and Return Back
13th December 1678 to 4th December 1679
Yesu Bai, Sakhubai, Mahadaji and Bajaji Nimbalkar
Page 23

https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/140716560

Link to index on page -1
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/139854215

Edited by history_geek - 8 years ago

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MaddyO

@MaddyO

Sparkler

Posted: 8 years ago

#186

Originally posted by: _goofyCat_
@Maddy, such a descriptive and informative post. I usually don't have patience to write such long posts, lol. Appreciate it very much, you have explained almost everything.

To add to it, I think though Shahaji Raje could not directly help Shivaji because he was working for Nijam Shahi and Adil Shahi later, he had great influence, indirectly or even directly on everything that Shivaji Maharaj did. The two Shahis were considered to be very much shrewd and brutal, who didn't even spare their own Sardars when they did something against them or were becoming so powerful that they could become threat to their masters. There are many examples of Maratha Sardars getting killed through conspiracies, even Shahaji Raje were captured once or twice. (But since he was very strong and influential, he had to be released).

For this same reason, Shahaji could not leave his job and join or support Shivaji directly. There is one incidence where Shahaji's influence at Bijapur kingdom saved Shivaji Raje from Adil Shaha's wrath. It was during young days of Shivaji when he had just started building his own kingdom. There is also one incidence in later years (which I mentioned above), where Shahaji was captured by Adil Shaha, and Shivaji used his position and influence in Deccan to release him. The father son duo wre complementing each other so well!!

Thanks Rashmi 😳 Replying to your post above this comment also.

I am no researcher so my information is based on my reading. Though I have read book by Babasaheb Purandare and also read Chhava (realized this later!) that was only the one time. In case of Shriman Yogi I have read it multiple times - entire book and sometimes just chapters as per mood. So that is what I most remember.

Yes you are right, Shahaji Raje was a very powerful influential personality and he was heavyweight in both Nijamshahi and Adilshahi. He could not leave Adilshahi for many reasons I think - one of them was he was well settled in Bengluru with his another family and also Sambhaji Raje. It was his intention that Sambhaji Raje conquer Karnataka.

Also by the time Shivaji Maharaj's Swarajya took shape, Shahaji Raje was old, he was in his 60s and maybe too late to start again. Guess lot of factors combined to make him remain with Adilshahi.

About long post, Radhika is a friend and I know she is not well versed with Maratha history and I wanted to explain in detail. She is one of my favorite writers and Abhay and me have been trying to get her to become a regular on PB forum 😳😆

LOL, for sure you were never part of JA forum. Otherwise you would not have said long post! What I wrote was almost regular writing on JA forum. There used to be L O N G posts, some here from JA forum like Abhay, Harshu will vouch. I remember Diksha had almost run out of palette colors in her discussion once! Diksha is another wonderful writer from JA.

I will share a somewhat funny incident. I started watching JA quite late and once I started enjoying it I wanted to join the JA forum. JA forum had a kind of reputation, it was not for faint hearted 😉😆. So I was nervous when I made a thread there, I thought I had written quite a long post. One of the first replies were from Abhay (who I did not know then) and he wrote something like what a short and concise post. I privately wondered if he was being sarcastic! 😆😆 I asked my friend and she said no no he means it, your post is short by JA standard!

Once I got to know Abhay, I read all his threads and there were 4-5 active ones with almost 100+ pages each filled with information! So when Abhay comments on very less activity on this forum he really means it 😆

Quote

MaddyO

@MaddyO

Sparkler

Posted: 8 years ago

#187

Originally posted by: history_geek
Transferred from here : https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/140662666

My comments in bold black below.

LOL my replies in pink!

Replied in bold black above.

Stone Inscription

Seal of Sambhaji

Quote

neesha119

@neesha119

Explorer

Posted: 8 years ago

#188

Originally posted by: history_geek

Why Balaji supported Shahu Ji ?
Role of Zinat un Nissa, Dhanaji Jadhav, Parashuram Pratinidhi

Thanks Neesha. Nice to see you again. All the members writing on this thread are amazingly well read in Maratha history. It is great to have all of you here.

Before i answer you, do check out the old comment on this thread. We discussed this topic earlier too. :)

Read point number 2 and 3. Link :
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/140008631

After reading above link, continue : A brother of Shivaji - Bhanji Kaka, who was in Mughal employment helped Balaji. From 1695 to 1699, Shahu ji was kept confined at banks of river Bhima. Through Bhanji Kaka, Balaji came in touch with Shahu ji and served him there ocassionaly, at that time.

So, this proves, Balaji knew Shahu ji from early times. But Shahu ji was a young child that time. I also mentioned in my old comment (link above) that Balaji had secret means through which he could contact Zinat un Nissa Begum and safe guarded interests of Shahu ji through her.

Now, why he helped Shahu ji. Let us understand.

Tara Bai, when Shahu ji was released from Mughal captivity, said - "Shivaji died in 1680. And he had asked that the kingdom will be inherited by his younger son Rajaram, not Sambhaji. Sambhaji, instead, lost the kingdom and it was her husband Rajaram who built the Maratha dominions again from 1689 till his death in 1700. And from then till 1708, she was fighting the Mughal Empire and hence the present Maratha state is the creation of Rajaram and hence her son Shivaji Raje should get the throne, because the kingdom was lost by Sambhaji and hence his son Shahu has no right to the throne."

{
She also said that the prince in Aurangzeb's custody was an imposter. In reality Tara Bai's arguments hardly made any impression on ministers because his husband Rajaram in 1689 while becoming Chatrapati had declared that he was holding the throne on behalf of his nephew Shahu ji. Also, the commanders all these years were fighting to secure release of Shahu Ji. And the masses were emotionally attached as they thought the eldest son was the rightful heir.
}

Hence, now, Tara Rani, decided to bind her ministers into her favor by asking all of them to take oath on boiled milk and rice to remain loyal to her. Such oath was not taken lightly that time. It is like giving a vachan. Many took oath. Some remained undecided but they did not protest. Except Dhanaji Jadhav and Khando Ballal, who said that they would support Tara Bai if the prince was really an imposter.

Tara Bai sent Bapuji Bhonsle to find if the Shahu in Mughal camp was real Shahu. Similarly, Dhanaji sent Khando Ballal to find the same. Khando Ballal was convinced that this was indeed the real Shahu and returned.

Parshuram Triambak

Tara Rani sent his favorite minister Parashuram Triambak (whom we see in the show daily), Dhanaji and Khando Ballal to fight Shahu ji when he was returning.

Balaji Vishwanath already knew that this was the Real Shahu. Now, Shahu ji made a plan. Through, Balaji and Khando Ballal he called Dhanaji for a secret meeting (it may be a letter not a meeting) one day before this battle, and won him to his side. They decided to wage a sham battle against Shahu the next day. So, in actual battle, Dhanaji and Khando Ballal remained inactive and Parshuram was beaten back.

As i mentioned, almost all the ministers had taken that oath on boiled milk and rice, which was not taken lightly in those days. Only Dhanaji and Khando Ballal had taken a "conditional oath" that they will support Tara Rani if this Shahu was an imposter. Hence, their oath was not broken by changing sides as this was no imposter but the real Shahu.

Shankar Malhar

Another minister, Shankarji Malhar had also taken an oath to support Tara Rani. But now he came to know this was the real Shahu. He wanted to support Shahu ji but was bound by oath to support Tara Rani. After winning the above mentioned battle , Shahu ji came along with Dhanaji, Khando Ballal and Balaji, etc. to meet Shankarji to also merge him in his party. But this man of high ideals who was oath bound, committed suicide as he could not break the oath and neither join Shahu ji despite his best intentions !! Such were the men of those times!

I hope all this gives an idea why Balaji deserted Tara Rani. Balaji was not the main player. It was Dhanaji and since Balaji was his close aide hence both sailed in the same boat. Actual rise of Balaji took place when Shahu became Chatrapati. Dhanaji died soon in 1708.

All these years the Marathas were fighting to secure release of Shahu ji. They were emotionally attached to him. Tara Rani thought that since she had given a life to the dying Maratha empire, hence her son should be the king. She was right and wrong both. As the throne was rightfully, the property of son of Sambhaji, as her late husband Rajaram had said.

Also her own ministers were jealous of each other. One of them, Ramachandra wrote to Shahu ji encouraging him to attack and take possession of throne. He was jealous of the influence of Parashuram Triambak. See this old comment on page 3 to know what the name of which sardar. I have mentioned pictures and character sketch of these ministers from the show and explained them. More is here :

https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/139935431

PS : On a related note, just after the marriage of Shahu ji, Aurangzeb opened up negotiations for release of Shahu ji through his son Kambaksh and he called meeting with Dhanaji Jadhav who was the senapati of Tara Rani Saheb. Since, Balaji was the only person on whom Dhanaji relied, hence i think, he made Balaji party to these negotiations. I hope this will be the next track in our show.

Last Few Updates on this thread :

Zinat un Nissa & Marriage of Shahu Ji and his sister / Cousins
Page 18 and 19
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/140600612

Yesu Bai stays back @ Fall of Raigad & Escape of Chatrapati Rajaram
Aurangzeb's Love Affair and Zeb un Nissa's tragic story
Page 23
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/140714511

An Interesting narration of
Sambhaji's desertion to Mughal Camp and Return Back
13th December 1678 to 4th December 1679
Yesu Bai, Sakhubai, Mahadaji and Bajaji Nimbalkar
Page 23
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/140716560

Link to index on page -1
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/139854215

you

Wow Abhay,Hats off to you man. What splendid research and knowledge you have. I am amazed and so wonderfully explained. Of course Radhika's contribution is also worth it. But since I am a novice in this subject, I was gathering whatever little knowledge from Wikipedia where they said it was Balaji who convinced Dhanaji to side with Shahu raje and not vice versa. Therefore I had my doubts.

But you have made everything clear. Thanks for enlightening me with this and as for your threads, Abhay they are so so interesting and I am solwly relishing this treat. Love you all ,love this forum.

Edited by neesha119 - 8 years ago