The Scarlet Pimpernel and ShraMan

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indranigupta

@indranigupta

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 9 years ago

#51

I am posting this on behalf of Rekha (Sanfan)...Her IF account keeps saying that there is an application error and she cannot post...can any one help?

This post written by Rekha is meant as a response to Glassdoor's earlier comment on crutch and Shravan's love as being symbolic of only his need for her being which cannot be termed as love...Here it goes...

@glassdoor...When you call someone using another person as an emotional crutch...what exactly does it signify and what are the instances that signify the usage?

Firstly, what defines an emotional crutch...even if it is a loose defi...

A substance, object, or individual providing temporary (?) support, and comfort during times of stress or turmoil...

Is that all what Sumo signifies to Shravan in your view? Or can it be a sub set of the relational dynamics between the two..wherein Shravan has leaned into Sumo for her strength in times of need and also provided it to her in her times of need..(she may or may not have taken it fully, partially)

I understand your point about the extended duration that may lead to corrosiveness in the relationship but in Shravan and Sumo's case, it has not even reached that stage. He has not yet been able to reach that stage with her, I will leave out the teenage phase where they were thick as thieves and the time he wanted to lean on her, she shooed him off..

The only time she has helped him lean on to her is when his father was presumed dead and he folded up. Even in that case, he was not even aware of leaning into her...she provided him thesuccor though.. Which is the other instance where he has leaned on to her? My memory fails me.

So him using her as an emotional crutch is something i am not seeing as a pattern in the narrow definition.

GD, on the next part of your post...about him wanting to help becos it makes him look gud...if you view an action as a standalone aspect, it is easy to attribute motives to actions. The thing is Shravan's misogyny has caused many of us to view his character traits rather severely...The makers while writing his character did not anticipate that the extremeness in his characterisation will jar at some stage. The Shravan who stays on to fight despite a severe breakdown of relationship in the Khosla track becos he wanted to protect his childhood memories with Sumo, a friend who is mindful of Sumo's need to honour her dead mother's memory in the Khosla track with the ends and means, the Shravan who realises how his ego had put Sumo's life in jeapordy...the friend who understood that the only way she will help herself is when she is challenged on the matter that matters most to her, her lifeline. So..essentialy, his transformation from such an amiable friend to a man who in love felt suddenly thwarted at being put second best on the list was bound to raise eyebrows...

I guess some of us have debated this...what is Shravan feeling betrayed about? Does he have a right to feel so? There are sides to choose here...some who feel that he had to accept rejection on his chin...well fair enough..Shravan did not pass that test. Unlike Sumo who cried buckets on knowing of Shravan and Urvashi's engagement...and then feeling thrilled when it broke, Shravan did not behave like a gentleman...if thats what has got him the brickbats...lets agree he deserved it. For a moment, lets accept Shravan should have done what Sumo did...cried buckets (or mugs full) and moved on. So, my next question where does that leave the love story...becos Sumo would have not done anything to change the status quo , and the Shravan baiters are saying he should have moved on or taken the rejection on his chin...becos he did not have the right to feel upset...so my next q is where does that leave the love story"

I don't have the answers too...All i can say is when we try to box love into a definition, it escapes us.

In Rumi's words

However much I might try to expound or explain Love, when I come to Love itself, I am ashamed of my explanations... Love alone can explain the mysteries of love and lovers.

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Sheesh

@glassdoor

Navigator

+ 4

Posted: 9 years ago

#52

I am in a hurry. Going to visit somebody. So this may not be well edited or crafted response...

I have realised that I am way too cynical. 😆 But can you blame me?

Why do we all watch a love story? It is something of a wishlist. 'I wish I knew a guy like that and had a chance with him!' But by making Shravan into a sort of extreme character that he is, the CVs themselves have refused to treat it like a love story. He has gone OTT in his reactions to everything.

Let's keep aside all questions about love for one second. When great poets themselves stumble when it comes to describing love, tho mai kya cheez hoo? I don't even want to pretend to be able to describe it successfully.

May be nobody can describe it successfully. But young/old, bitter/hopeful, battered/happy all of us here are incurable romantics. We may not be able to verbalise what love is but we certainly intuitively know what it means, right?

So the important question is, Does Shravan have this intuition and knowledge?

Has his love for Suman made him happy? Has it made him grow? When he realised he fell in love with her he shut himself off for days. He couldn't bear the fact that he had fallen in love with a woman. He almost cried in front of his dad. I am not sure it was all due to happiness.

This is because Nirmala leaving him and not loving him has made him an emotional cripple. He has projected his expectations and needs from mother to other relationships in his life.

I think everyone agrees he has an extremely unhealthy relationship with his father? 🤢

When he has married her under these circumstances, how can we ever call their love a healthy one? That is why I call it an emotional crutch. Something that defeats a person cannot be love in my opinion.

P.S. I am not talking Suman's love. That is a whole other beast which I don't have energy to tackle right now. 😆

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nith125

@nith125

Dazzler

Posted: 9 years ago

#53

@Indrani @Anu Sorry about the delay. Short on "me" time today.

I am trying to complete my last comment.

Originally posted by: nith125
@Anu @Indrani

Love may die a gradual death when there is no trust but it would put up one hell of a fight and that is what I think kept both of them waiting.
Will come back and update in sometime, there is more. This comment is incomplete 😆

I am going to make 2 points here, so please bear with me,it may not make sense however.

Love may die a gradual death when there is no trust but it would put up one hell of a fight and that is what I think kept both of them waiting. However the whole thing wouldn't make sense if they were just friends at that point, so the relationship was deeper than that definitely.

The relationship, as I view is something like the bond between a creator and his creation. I did start on this in chick's thread a couple of days back but did not elaborate.Suman's identity as Sumo was created by Shravan."Meri Sumo" as he repeatedly says. Her traits may have existed earlier but by giving it a name he created a dimension to her personality that never existed before and he considers it to be only his. He was in for disappointment when she didn't stand by him, but that was only the friend, this special bond remained and remains even today. Remember Puskar's dialogue "You see only what you want to see". Shravan at that time only saw the good in Sumo and he loved that Sumo. I don't think he spent 10 years without Sumo, I think he spent 10 years with her. Because his Sumo exists in him and not outside, as the creation exits in the creator even if there is a physical manifestation. I would go so far as to say that he believes it was "Suman" who didn't stand by him not his Sumo. Going away from Suman was how he chose to punish(too strong a word) her, by taking Sumo with him. The tragedy is that when he came back, he tried to find Sumo in Suman, she is there of course but he has frozen his Suman over time and they don't match.He has to find her, inside out. I am going to borrow from Rekha as her line fits here "Shravan will find the memory box when he finds Sumo and not the other way around"

In her own unique way, I think Suman understands this. The world may call by the name he gave her, but that Sumo belongs only to her Shravan. Hence the "Sumo ka Shravan". And thats why she waited. Suman always reminds me of the person with half the shadow (Murakimi - not sure if it is Norwegian wood or Kafka on the Shore) but I do not want to digress.

From her standpoint I think there is something more. There is guilt ofcourse, but I think it is not guilt alone and this is open to interpretation. I think it was a fear of abandonment (I may be wrong )and along with that a resolve to be a better person as she realized that she had wronged her best friend. She landed up imbibing his qualities.

I know the next question will be why he came back. I don't know. When did Suman fall in love ? We can conveniently say that "after" Shravan left, but how after is after ?

This is my second point, the masterstroke by the CVs. When we(the audience) enter the story, we are not told where we are in the love story ! Are they just friends or are they in love ? Piece by piece the jigsaw comes together, but the CVs are brilliant. By chosing not to reveal the these things, by not showing us the complete picture, they have left so much open to interpretation and that makes EKDV very special.

If you made it this far and it doesn't make sense, feel free to throw anything at me but I am going to pat myself on the back 😉

Edited by nith125 - 9 years ago

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nith125

@nith125

Dazzler

Posted: 9 years ago

#54

Originally posted by: Faith28
Amazing!! Haven't read this book but, guess i should now👍🏼

Thank you Faith 😊

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nith125

@nith125

Dazzler

Posted: 9 years ago

#55

Originally posted by: indranigupta

Rosh...Muah! ...😳🤗
I love these two together...they feel real, even with all their flaws..

I do not believe in one as using the other...none of us would have then invested so much time in them...But, the fact, that their love fights, pushes, struggles against all the murky waters...makes one feel for these two...

You know why darkness is so important because darkness makes the light glow and shine more...Their walls which have seemingly been erupted between them...can only manifest that love more...
Thats why as Rekha said ...I do believe this show is more like a book...you have to read and re-read the earlier pages to inform your understanding

@bold + 100

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nith125

@nith125

Dazzler

Posted: 9 years ago

#56

Originally posted by: Dreamer-89
Hey nith I'm Benna these two understand each other too well but a bit differently 😆 am I making sense

Instances why I feel the understanding is what still keeps the love or the bond or whatever name we call that Ss share:

Despite he trying to take the shorter route to get the Tiwari house from Khosla he understood Sumos and his mistake so he went the longer route because he understood it's not the house yea the house was dear to her but it's her mother's name that needed to be cleared

Then pct fiasco when he committed that mistake Unknowingly he understood he's the reason she met with an accident he stood with her in the background egging her on to stand up on her feet when everything failed he planned the Dal drama because he understood Sumos true passion lies in her food her PCT it's the understanding that made challenged her to add her own touch to His mother's dal!!!!

Im sure there's more but blame it on the sleepy brains 😆

Sumo trusts her Chashmish even after all the things he's said and done because her undying hope and continued positive approach to the marriage is his one word that this marriage is my descision she understands that Shravan's expressions of love go way beyond the outward Expression the mehendi scene because of that she told Mami about the Sindoor because she's knows these two will continue me to a point where they both will be on the same page soon where he willingly will mark her as His by putting it for her
😳

You are making sense Benna 😊 Thanks for the insight, of course they understand each other, too well 😉 as you say. I am so waiting for the day he will put sindoor on her, sometimes I find these symbols are necessary to assure ourselves if not to show the rest of the world.

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nith125

@nith125

Dazzler

Posted: 9 years ago

#57

Originally posted by: an_chau

OK, my one simple question to the two of you - is love without trust not love then? In that case, how would you see one-sided, unrequited love?
I think in a relationship where love is reciprocated, trust completes the feeling of love.
Really curious to hear your thoughts on the question...

Anu, a very good question for which I don't have an answer 😕 as such I am lost 😉

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sanfan

@sanfan

Rocker

+ 2

Posted: 9 years ago

#58

Originally posted by: glassdoor

I have realised that I am way too cynical. 😆 But can you blame me?

Why do we all watch a love story? It is something of a wishlist. 'I wish I knew a guy like that and had a chance with him!' But by making Shravan into a sort of extreme character that he is, the CVs themselves have refused to treat it like a love story. He has gone OTT in his reactions to everything.

GD, ...cynicism in a love story...well its possible...at a point when the character's actions don't match our sensibilities...we will question it, its absolutely natural. When I put forth the point of where does that leave the love story...my intention was not to question our reactions...rather put out a thought that every love story has a difficulty to surmount. Even in a so called fairy tale romance, there is a point at which the partners are separated and then they reunite...All love stories are otherwise similar. It is the conflict point in a story that determines the uniqueness of a romance. If the question is does every love story need a conflict point..well no...in a lot of stories they are just adjustment issues...which may not reach the level of what we call a conflict, it may not be dramatic...it may be so minor that it is not worth discussing but when two people profess love to each other...they can never claim they know everything about the other...never at all...sometimes we discover and then fall in love...sometimes we fall in love and discover. 😆

Sometimes those conflict points determine the intensity of a love story..but that does not mean that those which do not have dramatic points are any less intense..I will still stay...one's own story is the most unique...becos u have lived every moment of it..every other story is seen from a voyeur's perspective...we are never completely sure what is actually happening...we get a glimpse...we make our perceptions and then we analyse (esp those with the malady of word diahorrea😉

May be nobody can describe it successfully. But young/old, bitter/hopeful, battered/happy all of us here are incurable romantics. We may not be able to verbalise what love is but we certainly intuitively know what it means, right?

Who is an incurable romantic? is there a definition? I am not sure...I suppose an incurable romantic must be able to keep cynicism aside to be able to enjoy a romance...must be able to believe that the odds however heavily stacked, will still find a way to the endgoal..(whatever that is)...If not...what is an incurable romantic. Does a reel romance gives one the space to be incurably romantic? or is it the other way round? I am realistic enuf to say the former. But I still say the best romance is the real one...u are not saddled with plot twists and TRPs there...😆😆 I say this with experience...am a lot older than all u guys here...😉

So the important question is, Does Shravan have this intuition and knowledge?

What is the knowledge and intuition u need in love? If Shravan does not have it,who has it...this guy has not been able to give up his intuition despite it leading him up to ways that take him away from his destination...His heart knows things that his mind can't explain..so he plods on...wearily tho...

Has his love for Suman made him happy? Has it made him grow? When he realised he fell in love with her he shut himself off for days. He couldn't bear the fact that he had fallen in love with a woman. He almost cried in front of his dad. I am not sure it was all due to happiness.

This is because Nirmala leaving him and not loving him has made him an emotional cripple. He has projected his expectations and needs from mother to other relationships in his life.

I think everyone agrees he has an extremely unhealthy relationship with his father? 🤢

When he has married her under these circumstances, how can we ever call their love a healthy one? That is why I call it an emotional crutch. Something that defeats a person cannot be love in my opinion.

GD, i don't think I can really answer this question well without looking like i am taking sides but i will try...If we call the marriage a coercion, i would say it is an unhealthy one...Like in Arnav_khushi one..was there coercion in this wedding?..NO.so why should only Shravan be called to account. They both told they wont marry each other, then Shravan said yes, she was surprised so she asked him and he said it was his decision, she was satisfied and she took the plunge. She was completely at liberty to question him further, as a plot device we accept her decision but question his...So frankly...i don't know what is the big deal here? To me they are equally muddled and addled 😆 completely deserving of each other and we are all incurable romantics trying to guide these to their walk into the sunset. either they will completely loose it or we trying to get them to reconcile...😊

P.S. I am not talking Suman's love. That is a whole other beast which I don't have energy to tackle right now. 😆

GUD U did not...I don't think I could survive..😆😆

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