Kurukshetra War: A personal war of justice?(was revenge earlier)

Ashwini_D thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#1
These are my musings on Krishna's counsel to Draupadi in the episode following the Vastraharan:

1) I agreed with Krishna asking Draupadi to give up her fury to have some peace of mind and not be angry over spilt milk. Only with a calm mind can one one have clarity in his/her thoughts and plan one's next move.

2) But I have my own doubts with Krishna asking Draupadi to convert her personal miseries into a struggle for the greater good of all-the fight against adharma. Here Krishna has already taken the stance that a war is necessary to wipe out all the adharmic kings from the face of the earth and revealed that to be his mission. So war, as soon as it gets divine sanction, becomes necessary for the emancipation of mankind.

3) While all of this makes for a good religious doctrine with the almighty aiding the 'good' with their fight against 'evil', I would like to ask a question here: In reality are the 'good' and 'evil' sides so easily distinguishable? Isn't the Mahabharata all about grey characters? Is war, which all agree should be the last resort, really the solution to all that is plaguing humanity? Doesn't the epic itself haunt us with these very questions?

4) If I am not wrong, even the epic has some evidence stating that the war did more harm than good. If I look at the epic, leaving aside all religious and divine elements, Krishna becomes just another character like the others. As soon as we bring down Krishna from this divine pedestal, the entire perspective of looking at the epic and the war changes. The war becomes a personal strife between two set of cousins, one fighting for their rights to the throne, which were unfairly taken away from them by the other side. So isn't the war what it is: a personal war? And not a war for the greater good? It is only Krishna's Godhood, which is a matter of faith, that lends credibility to the latter, which in my opinion is no credibility at all. We should not accept things, just because they have been sanctioned by religion.

Disclaimer: Please note that I am not sympathising with Duryodhan neither am I implying that he was on the 'good' side. I am doubting the very fact of who decides which is the 'good' side and which is the 'evil' side in the greater scheme of things. I wholeheartedly sympathise with the cause of the Pandavas, and feel that they are totally justified in avenging the wrongs done to them and demanding their rights. What I am ultimately questioning is people's belief that the Kurukshetra war was, merely because of divine sanction, an altruistic attempt from the good side and a victory for mankind. (which in my opinion is not entirely true).
Not trying to offend anybody's religious sentiments.

EDIT: Some are mistaking the point I'm trying to make in this post. Perhaps I have not been clear enough above. I am aware that the war was fought for justice where the Pandavas fought for their rights that were denied to them even after completing the required term of exile. I am in no way disputing this. All I'm saying is why extrapolate it into a war for 'cleansing the earth of evil' or 'reducing the earth's burden' as is often claimed? What greater good was the death of Duryodhan going to achieve? (apart from justice to the Pandavas that is).The war was a result of a personal feud and not in the interest of mankind in the wider scheme of things, was it?

Edited by Ashwini_D - 11 years ago

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srishtisingh thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#2
idk but I have seen a pattern in vishnu avatars.they always had a particular goal. but they too were mostly controlled by human limitations or emotions. I think that's why they were avatars.look at parshuram he came to finish kshtriya and he always had that goal.they always worked for fulfilling purpose of their birth whether it crossed few things or did harm many times .I am no expert but I think krishna avatar was to balance power, as there were many gr8 powers at work in world. so it needed to be brought at ground level, equilibrium position. power corrupts people most of the time and their clash does harm.if u see mahabharat war nearly most of really powerful people met their end.and few met their end in later part.mahabharat war may have been a personal war for pandavas and kauravas but for krishna it was a war that mostly fulfilled his avatar goal.
now if he was not avatar I would like answer of many questions .if someone can provide. why did he not actively take part in war.his narayani sena fought on opposite side.why?he was not obliged to duryodhan because he had certainly made himself clear that duryodhan was not his friend during peace mission. why did he even go on peace mission? and many more I can't recall at the moment.
krishna is the mythological character which intrigues me.I admire him not because he is considered a god but because he makes me think still I can't decipher him.he is complex and unique
Ashwini_D thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#3
I too admire Krishna as a character, God or not. The Mahabharata predates Vaishnavism, so I don't really see how Dashavtar theory explain the events in it. In any case, thanks for your views.

The basic intent of this post was to urge people to view the epic by keeping aside their religious beliefs. I can still understand though if the two are not separable for a lot of people. (as each is entitled to their opinion)
Edited by Ashwini_D - 11 years ago
bheegi thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#4
From whatever reading I've down, Kurukshetra war was never a war of personal vengeance or a war for land but a war for justice.

It's about not offering the second cheek after being slapped the first time
and as Vidur has summarized it:

To save the family, [one must] abandon an individual. To save the village, abandon a family; to save the country, abandon the village.18

Das, Gurcharan (2010-09-03). The Difficulty of Being Good:On the Subtle Art of Dharma (Kindle Locations 1824-1825). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.

If they wanted personal revenge, they could have done it at the Gandharva incident or Virat war. Because the war was needed for a greater cause, they waited till the right moment.

The personal equation just added to the incentive for the war.

It's kinda like Osama Bin laden needed to be killed for the greater good of mankind but until the twin towers were attacked, the world powers had no incentive to find and kill him.
Edited by bheegi - 11 years ago
gupta.aditi20 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#5
hey
i really liked your thought...
see everyone has different views regaurding the war...
somesay it was fighting good over evil.. or some people also thinks it was for revenge...
in mb.. all were grey characters... pandavas too... they were not saintly... but they followed the dharma which was taught to them... they were fighting for their rights... and till now nobody is able to understand what actual dharma was and is... so here krishna came into the picture... he was the one who told them what its all about...
and about kaurav's they were not too bad... but they never chose the right path .. thus violating the basic essence of mankind...
like after the hastinapur kingdom was divided ... he wrongly took the indraprastha from them and the major adharma done by the kauravs was disrespecting a woman.. which lead to their downfall...
when krishna told panchaali to forgive them it was to ensure that panchaali doesnt suffer from the brunt of injustice done to her...
but fight for this injustice against her... not only because he insulted you... but because he could insult many others... so that gave the mahabharat a shape of dharamyudh...
moreover fighting for injustice is never revenge... its always known as avenge... fighting for the wrong done to them... revenge is always accompanied by jealousy , ego, anger... and avenge is always accompanied by helplessness , tears , anguish, peace...
and you know what my mom always told me mahabharat though an epic is never kept at home.. and when i asked why!! she replied.. mahabharat is all about the mistakes done at each step.. and we have to learn from each step... and in this learning krishna helps us...

Ashwini_D thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#6

Originally posted by: bheegi

From whatever reading I've down, Kurukshetra war was never a war of personal vengeance or a war for land but a war for justice.


It's about not offering the second cheek after being slapped the first time
and as Vidur has summarized it:

To save the family, [one must] abandon an individual. To save the village, abandon a family; to save the country, abandon the village.18

Das, Gurcharan (2010-09-03). The Difficulty of Being Good:On the Subtle Art of Dharma (Kindle Locations 1824-1825). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.

If they wanted personal revenge, they could have done it at the Gandharva incident or Virat war. Because the war was needed for a greater cause, they waited till the right moment.

The personal equation just added to the incentive for the war.

It's kinda like Osama Bin laden needed to be killed for the greater good of mankind but until the twin towers were attacked, the world powers had no incentive to find and kill him.


That's interesting. Thanks for your thoughts. But the reason the Pandavas did not avenge themselves during the Virat war or the skirmish with Gandharvas was that they were still bound by the exile. It is only after their demand for their share of the kingdom is rejected and Duryodhan refuses to part with even 5 villages that the Pandavas decide to wage war.

I agree with you that the war was not a war for revenge, but one for justice where the Pandavas fought for their rights. And that is how it should be viewed as well isn't it? Why extrapolate it into a war for cleansing the earth of evil or 'reducing the earth's burden' as is often claimed?
Did Duryodhan have to be killed for the greater good of mankind like Osama Bin Laden, a terrorist responsible for mass murder?
Edited by Ashwini_D - 11 years ago
bheegi thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#7

Originally posted by: Ashwini_D


That's interesting. Thanks for your thoughts. But the reason the Pandavas did not avenge themselves during the Virat war or the skirmish with Gandharvas was that they were still bound by the exile. It is only after their demand for their share of the kingdom is rejected and Duryodhan refuses to part with even 5 villages that the Pandavas decide to wage war.

I agree with you that the war was not a war for revenge, but one for justice where the Pandavas fought for their rights. And that is how it should be viewed as well isn't it? Why extrapolate it into a war for cleansing the earth of evil or 'reducing the earth's burden' as is often claimed?
Did Duryodhan have to be killed for the greater good of mankind like Osama Bin Laden, a terrorist responsible for mass murder?


The question is- how was Duryodhan as a king? What atrocities did he do on the common man? I don't have answers to these questions except what I've read in books like Ajaya (which are biased towards Dury). According to Krishna's message, the kshatriyas all over Aryavarta had resorted to adharm and needed to be cleansed from the earth before the start of the next yuga. If anyone has citations on how other kshatriya kings including Dury behaved with their praja, I would love to read that.

After reading RM's version, I feel Krishna was always in favor of war. Even his peace negotiations were done because Yudi wanted them but Krishna wanted the war from the very start. That was his mission and all his actions were geared towards the war




Ashwini_D thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#8

Originally posted by: bheegi

[

The question is- how was Duryodhan as a king? What atrocities did he do on the common man? I don't have answers to these questions except what I've read in books like Ajaya (which are biased towards Dury). According to Krishna's message, the kshatriyas all over Aryavarta had resorted to adharm and needed to be cleansed from the earth before the start of the next yuga. If anyone has citations on how other kshatriya kings including Dury behaved with their praja, I would love to read that.

After reading RM's version, I feel Krishna was always in favor of war. Even his peace negotiations were done because Yudi wanted them but Krishna wanted the war from the very start. That was his mission and all his actions were geared towards the war


Your post reminds me of a passage in 'Yuganta' where Karve argues why Krishna thinks Jarasandh needs to be killed. According to her, Jarasandh broke the code of conduct for the kshatriya community in Aryavarta, by imprisoning 100 kings with view to offer them for sacrifice in a ritual. The law governing the kshatriyas was that even though a certain king subjugated another and obtained supremacy over him, the subjugated king, if not killed in war, would be reinstated on the throne and allowed to rule, but he would have to pay tribute and allegiance to the victorious king. Jarasandh, instead violates this rule, and descends into anarchy. But I also like the way in which Krishna brings about his death with minimal collateral damage.

The same cannot be said of the Kurukshetra war, however.


Edited by Ashwini_D - 11 years ago
Ashwini_D thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#9

Originally posted by: gupta.aditi20

hey

i really liked your thought...
see everyone has different views regaurding the war...
somesay it was fighting good over evil.. or some people also thinks it was for revenge...
in mb.. all were grey characters... pandavas too... they were not saintly... but they followed the dharma which was taught to them... they were fighting for their rights... and till now nobody is able to understand what actual dharma was and is... so here krishna came into the picture... he was the one who told them what its all about...
and about kaurav's they were not too bad... but they never chose the right path .. thus violating the basic essence of mankind...
like after the hastinapur kingdom was divided ... he wrongly took the indraprastha from them and the major adharma done by the kauravs was disrespecting a woman.. which lead to their downfall...
when krishna told panchaali to forgive them it was to ensure that panchaali doesnt suffer from the brunt of injustice done to her...
but fight for this injustice against her... not only because he insulted you... but because he could insult many others... so that gave the mahabharat a shape of dharamyudh...
moreover fighting for injustice is never revenge... its always known as avenge... fighting for the wrong done to them... revenge is always accompanied by jealousy , ego, anger... and avenge is always accompanied by helplessness , tears , anguish, peace...
and you know what my mom always told me mahabharat though an epic is never kept at home.. and when i asked why!! she replied.. mahabharat is all about the mistakes done at each step.. and we have to learn from each step... and in this learning krishna helps us...


I agree. Fight against injustice cannot be termed as revenge alone. I should change my choice of word in the title of the post and call it a war for justice. A war for personal justice.
Edited by Ashwini_D - 11 years ago
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Posted: 11 years ago
#10
Copy Pasting from EDT

Originally posted by: Ashwini_D



4) If I am not wrong, even the epic has some evidence stating that the war did more harm than good. If I look at the epic, leaving aside all religious and divine elements, Krishna becomes just another character like the others. As soon as we bring down Krishna from this divine pedestal, the entire perspective of looking at the epic and the war changes. The war becomes a personal strife between two set of cousins, one fighting for their rights to the throne, which were unfairly taken away from them by the other side. So isn't the war what it is: a personal war? And not a war for the greater good? It is only Krishna's Godhood, which is a matter of faith, that lends credibility to the latter, which in my opinion is no credibility at all. We should not accept things, just because they have been sanctioned by religion.



Even when we include Krishna as God in the situation, no one was painted black and white in MB, specially during war.
Infact it repeatedly seeks to show how such a war makes savages out of most decent fellow.

It shows how everyone broke the moral ethical code over and over again from both sides.
After Dhristadyumna fell Drona, the pandava camp broke into bitter quarrel among each other over the ethics of the entire process, with the ever united brothers pandavas , bheem and yudi siding against arjun , Dhristadyumn against satyaki.

The whole Kurukhestra war just shows us the message that war is not an answer to the problem, It begets more problem. But sometimes it is unavoidable.


Now if we do not assume Krishna to be God but the genius politicial mastermind that he was ( which I do very often while analysing MB, its really interesting), still the MB war was not just cousins fighting against cousins.

First off, the demand to return their half of Kingdom( IP) from the Pandavas were valid. It was their hard work that turned the barren land into IP, and they were tricked to give it up. Even so they waited patiently as per the terms and then only formally lodge a complaint. When the opponents did not bulge did they go for war.

Krishna himself played the messenger between two sides, going as far as only demanding 5 villages from Kauravas.
But there is only to an extent you can compromise.
If you do more, you will only end up being oppressed more.
And History is full of such evidence.
At some point, people will rise up and revolt and resist.


You are right though, no body fought the war for selfless motivation. Even krishna, who sacrificed his family and fellow yadavas had this ambition to create a unified India, which was not possible the usual way in the bitter feuding country, separated into small countries.
War has always been needed to join lands in peace. Human Nature does not like to share , unless some greater, stronger personality overcomes it.


That aside there are always personal scores to settle in any war (Even the world wars alliances were forged based on personal scores and less on any principle).

Satyaki and Bhoorishrava for example revived old animosity.
So did bhagdutt when he joined the side against Krishna.

But the whole war, no one actually utters for greater Good word.

There is no such thing as greater good.

If MB wanted to preach how awesomely white pandavas and how awesomely black kauravas are, all pandava children would not be killed.

MB war , with Krishna as God or not , rather explains why a war should not be fought, why we should not be so much greedy, why we should stop ourselves asking for revenge, personal glory, money after a certain point.


But it is not like human kind ever listens.

MB war can be called the zeroth world war.

And after that we already had 2 full fledged world war, which were also fought "For Greater Good" as preached from war manifesto.

Edited by LeadNitrate - 11 years ago

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