Why didn't Arjun protect Draupadi? - Page 5

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Thank You, I didn't know that Arjun was a slave

Yes, We are discussing how Krushna in same time period didn't do wrong only because his elder brother asked him to do it, Arjun was weak here or maybe he didn't want to jagao Yudhishtira 😂

Every time I watched the show, Yudhishtira came out more of an imbalanced ego maniac to me, I don't know why I always had this negative impression of him, a man who bets his kingdom, his brother and wife is not worthy of being The King, he didn't have anything going for him apart from his being the eldest son of Pandu.

Arjun, his brothers and Krushna should have realized this but it was very weird for me when it was shown that he was the only one who went to Swarg 🤦‍♀️ WTF

@Bold - No, Arjun was not weak. He was just obeying what he knew, or rather, was taught to be Dharm. You see, no one really knows what is Dharm. What exactly is Dharm? Can you tell me? And if you can, are you confident that I wouldn't be able to prove you wrong? Everyone has their own idea of Dharm. We believe what is morally right is Dharm & what's immoral is Adharm. But what's right to you can be wrong to me. It's subjective. There is no fixed definition of Dharm. We judge what is wrong what is right from our own perspective & what we have been taught by our parents. Kunti always taught the Pandavas that the 5 of them should stick together & since Yudhishthir is the eldest, they should obey him. That's the Pandavas' perception of Dharm. Not necessarily it's actually Dharm.

The same thing can not be said about Shri Krishna. Shri Krishna is no mere mortal & his definition of Dharm isn't built upon what he has been taught by elders. He is Lord Vishnu's Avatar & Lord Vishnu descends to this mortal Earth when we mere mortals deviate from the path of Dharm & lose ourselves in Adharm's clutches. He comes to demolish Adharm & re-establish Dharm. So of course his Avatar, Shri Krishna has better understanding of Dharm. And so he wouldn't obey his older brother's every whim as Dharm just because he is older. He would follow his own perception of Dharm & since he has come to the mortal Earth for this purpose only, his perception of Dharm is the most solid definition of Dharm we have. So he is different. You can't compare him to other people.

@Underlined - I myself never understood this part really 🤔 Yudhishthir is not a character I understand. To my understanding, he is nowhere near the Dharma Putra he is touted to be. He was egoistic about never doing any Adharm & never lying. I don't understand if Arjun could fall because he was egoistic about his Archery Skills, Or Nakul could fall because he was proud to be the most handsome, how come Yudhishthir didn't fall? He was also egoistic about his own conception about not doing Adharm. 😕 And btw Yudhishthira alone didn't go to heaven. He went to heaven with his mortal body while others went to Heaven after dying. Even Duryodhana went to heaven because he died in battlefield like a warrior lol 😆

Yudi probably went because he was a great King. Also, he did not abandon the dog that followed him, like an actual King should do.

I think the God's in taking him to heaven, placed more weight on the fact that he tried (to follow Dharma) his best to be good.Yep, mistakes were made but he atoned for them throughout his life.

Forgive me for butting in, but Arjuna did speak up. In fact, he was the only one of the Pandavas to break ranks when Suyodhana challenged one of them to support Panchali's claim Yudhishtira had no right to stake her. I believe Arjuna's support was one of the reasons Kauravas were forced to let her go. If you're asking why didn't he pick up his weapon... because unlike TV shows, Arjuna likely couldn't slaughter everyone there. In the post-swayamvara scene, Arjuna doesn't kill all the assembled kings. He held them off for sure, but Krishna had to stop the fight by speaking reason. In the dice hall, defeat wouldn't have been the end. Arjuna would've had to kill every one of the rest before making his escape. As seen from Kurukshetra, it took 10 days to defeat Bheeshma even with the support of an army. What would a lone Arjuna do in the court? He would merely have been risking the lives of his family by getting into a fight. The way he did it, there was at least hope of living to fight another day. It wasn't simply because of Yudhishtira.

Also, Krishna was not king of Dwarka. He was just its most prominent citizen. Balram does say after his teerth yathra Krishna disobeyed a direct order to fight for Kauravas or stay neutral. Balram and yadavas go as far as to accuse Krishna of murder and robbery at one point. Also, Balram refused to speak to Krishna on his deathbed. Things were not well between them... probably because Balram had a habit of siding with the adharmis. There is a scene between Balram and Yamuna in Harivamsa which is particularly disturbing to read when you remember this guy was Krishna's brother. Krishna later married her. Poor Krishna was always doing the balancing act between dharma and his adharmi clan.

So yeah, both Krishna and Arjuna knew well right from wrong and are heroes of the epic for the same reason.

Re: Panchali being docile. Nothing much is given about her thoughts and feelings prior to dice hall episode, so we can't really tell. One thing we see is that she worked her backside off as empress according to both Yudhishtira and Suyodhana. Given the position she carried in the setup, I wouldn't imagine docility as a key character trait. Rulers are rarely the shy, retiring type.

Re: dice hall being rape. It didn't get as far because she was set free. I'm sure no one until then imagined a woman being stripped naked in court, either, let alone the empress. With Suyodhana showing his thigh and Karna suggesting Panchali pick one of the men there to have sex with, rape wasn't far behind. So I wouldn't be quick to claim she wouldn't have been raped in court. If not there and then, soon and in the slave quarters Karna ordered Dusshasana to take her to. A stopped rape doesn't make the criminal any less monstrous. It merely makes the survivor's trauma less.

Going back to Arjuna speaking up, I think the disrobing made him realize what exactly was in store for Panchali as the Kaurava slave, prompting him to speak up. Whether or not there was love between them after swayamvar (I don't think there was), there was considerable connect after dice hall.

Satyavathi and Virat were not twins. Maybe Virat's grandfather or grandfather was her twin.

@Poorabhforever, good to see you here😊. Vyasa does tell Pandavas to go to Kampilya for swayamvar. Arjuna was chosen as representative because it was an archery contest. I too don't consider it superficial. They were in dire straits. Panchali was a woman he'd never met. It was a matter of survival for them to follow Vyasa's orders. The whole drama at the potter's hut was likely staged by mother and sons for Panchali's benefit. BIG CAVEAT: there is a scene before swayamvar where Arjuna follows a beautiful woman and is told she will be Panchali whom he is going to win. This makes me think he did meet her before. I haven't concluded on how it all computes into the political picture.

Disclaimer: Anything I say is based on the assumption they were all flesh and blood humans.

Originally posted by: .Lonewalker.

@Bold - No, Arjun was not weak. He was just obeying what he knew, or rather, was taught to be Dharm. You see, no one really knows what is Dharm. What exactly is Dharm? Can you tell me? And if you can, are you confident that I wouldn't be able to prove you wrong? Everyone has their own idea of Dharm. We believe what is morally right is Dharm & what's immoral is Adharm. But what's right to you can be wrong to me. It's subjective. There is no fixed definition of Dharm. We judge what is wrong what is right from our own perspective & what we have been taught by our parents. Kunti always taught the Pandavas that the 5 of them should stick together & since Yudhishthir is the eldest, they should obey him. That's the Pandavas' perception of Dharm. Not necessarily it's actually Dharm.

The same thing can not be said about Shri Krishna. Shri Krishna is no mere mortal & his definition of Dharm isn't built upon what he has been taught by elders. He is Lord Vishnu's Avatar & Lord Vishnu descends to this mortal Earth when we mere mortals deviate from the path of Dharm & lose ourselves in Adharm's clutches. He comes to demolish Adharm & re-establish Dharm. So of course his Avatar, Shri Krishna has better understanding of Dharm. And so he wouldn't obey his older brother's every whim as Dharm just because he is older. He would follow his own perception of Dharm & since he has come to the mortal Earth for this purpose only, his perception of Dharm is the most solid definition of Dharm we have. So he is different. You can't compare him to other people.

@Underlined - I myself never understood this part really 🤔 Yudhishthir is not a character I understand. To my understanding, he is nowhere near the Dharma Putra he is touted to be. He was egoistic about never doing any Adharm & never lying. I don't understand if Arjun could fall because he was egoistic about his Archery Skills, Or Nakul could fall because he was proud to be the most handsome, how come Yudhishthir didn't fall? He was also egoistic about his own conception about not doing Adharm. 😕 And btw Yudhishthira alone didn't go to heaven. He went to heaven with his mortal body while others went to Heaven after dying. Even Duryodhana went to heaven because he died in battlefield like a warrior lol 😆

I don't know Dharma but I know that watching anyone being assaulted, let alone, Arjun's wife is not right, One can't be so blind to follow everything done by his brother. When Arjun supported Draupadi's claim in the court suggests he knew that his brother was wrong but his inability to do anything makes him weak

Originally posted by: MahanalayakKarn

Forgive me for butting in, but Arjuna did speak up. In fact, he was the only one of the Pandavas to break ranks when Suyodhana challenged one of them to support Panchali's claim Yudhishtira had no right to stake her. I believe his support was one of the reasons Kauravas were forced to let her go.

Also, Krishna was not king of Dwarka. He was just its most prominent citizen. Balram does say after his teerth yathra Krishna disobeyed a direct order to fight for Kauravas or stay neutral. Balram and yadavas go as far as to accuse Krishna of murder and robbery at one point. Also, Balram refuses to speak to Krishna on his deathbed. Things were not well between them... probably because Balram had a habit of siding with the adharmis. There is a scene between Balram and Yamuna in Harivamsa which is particularly disturbing to read when you remember this guy was Krishna's brother. Poor Krishna was always doing the balancing act between dharma and his unruly clan.

So yeah, both Krishna and Arjuna knew well right from wrong and are heroes of the epic for the same reason.

Re: Panchali being docile. Nothing much is given about her thoughts and feelings prior to dice hall episode, so we can't really tell. One thing we see is that she worked her backside off as empress according to both Yudhishtira and Suyodhana. Given the position she carried in the setup, I wouldn't imagine docility as a key character trait. Rulers are rarely the shy, retiring type.

Re: dice hall being rape. It didn't get as far because she was set free. I'm sure no one until then imagined a woman being stripped naked in court, let alone the empress. With Suyodhana showing his thigh and Karna suggesting Panchali pick one of the men there to have sex with, rape wasn't far behind.

Going back to Arjuna speaking up, I think the disrobing made him realize what exactly was in store for Panchali as the Kaurava slave, prompting him to speak up. Whether or not there was love between them after swayamvar (I don't think there was), there was considerable connect after dice hall.

Satyavathi and Virat were not twins. Maybe Virat's grandfather or grandfather was her twin.

@Poorabhforever, good to see you here😊. Vyasa does tell Pandavas to go to Kampilya for swayamvar. Arjuna was chosen as representative because it was an archery contest. I too don't consider it superficial. They were in dire straits. Panchali was a woman he'd never met. It was a matter of survival for them to follow Vyasa's orders. The whole drama at the potter's hut was likely staged by mother and sons for Panchali's benefit. BIG CAVEAT: there is a scene before swayamvar where Arjuna follows a beautiful woman and is told she will be Panchali whom he is going to win. This makes me think he did meet her before. I haven't concluded on how it all computes into the political picture.

Disclaimer: Anything I say is based on the assumption they were all flesh and blood humans.

I guess there are too many versions of this story so none can really say which one is true

Originally posted by: NoraSM

I guess there are too many versions of this story so none can really say which one is true

What I said is present in both critical edition and KMG.

Originally posted by: NoraSM

I don't know Dharma but I know that watching anyone being assaulted, let alone, Arjun's wife is not right, One can't be so blind to follow everything done by his brother. When Arjun supported Draupadi's claim in the court suggests he knew that his brother was wrong but his inability to do anything makes him weak

But you can't judge someone from Dwapar Yuga with your 2020's mindset na? Things used to be different back then.

His "inability to anything" comes from him being gambled off to Kauravs by his elder brother. To prevent this, he had to protest when his elder brother staked him & deny the claim that his elder brother own him. But if he did this, people back then would have called him Adharmi as he is not devoted enough to his "Pita Saman Jesth Bhrata" 😆 He spoke up in Draupadi's support, but couldn't do that for himself since he had to admit his brother's ownership on him.

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Draupadi was Arjun's queen because she was wife of the King Yudhishtira. Draupadi served as queen, she handled finances of her Kingdom.

This stand of "Brother is right" even if he causes public humiliation and assault on a woman, renders her a slave not only her but his other brothers as well, that too for a game, is something I don't understand to be honest.

One thing or another was more important to people sitting in that hall, none of Draupadi's husbands tried to stop it, I blame Arjun more because he is the one who decides to participate in her swayamvar. He takes her responsibility and remains a viewer to her being assaulted and disrobed in front of 100 people.

The thing is that 'he did not care' applies to everyone sitting there, it's not exclusive to Arjun that's why I don't see it as a good reason, although someone in the thread explained how Arjun was a slave himself and if I remember correctly, he did say that Yudhishtira, who lost himself in the bet had no rights to bet Draupadi

Draupadi was a Queen, yes. Queen to Yudhishthir, yes. Not Queen to Arjun. Wife to Arjun, because Arjun was not a King. I think you are trying to say she was the Queen of the kingdom Arjun belonged to (ie Indraprastha), if I understand right?

Yes, you should blame Arjun and everyone else out there. You are right, he is the one who won the Swayamvar and hence he should have been the first to speak irrespective of whether it was his wish or not. He might have been a slave but anyone who would be bothered by such atrocities should at least speak up, again, we have an example of this. Bheem spoke up, Vikarna did if I remember right. Bheem too was a slave. So there's no excuse why he couldn't have even spoken.

About Yudhi not having the right to bet on her, yes that's correct. He didn't but still he put her on bet. And none of his brothers protested. Bheem was the only one who was concerned and his rage once he was freed proves how bothered he was. Arjun still remained quiet apart from his oath of killing Karna, whom he already had grudges against and vice versa.

So in conclusion we can say that Arjun didn't really do anything praiseworthy that day, infact what he did was wrong and there's no justification for that either.

Originally posted by: MahanalayakKarn

Forgive me for butting in, but Arjuna did speak up. In fact, he was the only one of the Pandavas to break ranks when Suyodhana challenged one of them to support Panchali's claim Yudhishtira had no right to stake her. I believe Arjuna's support was one of the reasons Kauravas were forced to let her go. If you're asking why didn't he pick up his weapon... because unlike TV shows, Arjuna likely couldn't slaughter everyone there. In the post-swayamvara scene, Arjuna doesn't kill all the assembled kings. He held them off for sure, but Krishna had to stop the fight by speaking reason. In the dice hall, defeat wouldn't have been the end. Arjuna would've had to kill every one of the rest before making his escape. As seen from Kurukshetra, it took 10 days to defeat Bheeshma even with the support of an army. What would a lone Arjuna do in the court? He would merely have been risking the lives of his family by getting into a fight. The way he did it, there was at least hope of living to fight another day. It wasn't simply because of Yudhishtira.

Also, Krishna was not king of Dwarka. He was just its most prominent citizen. Balram does say after his teerth yathra Krishna disobeyed a direct order to fight for Kauravas or stay neutral. Balram and yadavas go as far as to accuse Krishna of murder and robbery at one point. Also, Balram refused to speak to Krishna on his deathbed. Things were not well between them... probably because Balram had a habit of siding with the adharmis. There is a scene between Balram and Yamuna in Harivamsa which is particularly disturbing to read when you remember this guy was Krishna's brother. Krishna later married her. Poor Krishna was always doing the balancing act between dharma and his adharmi clan.

So yeah, both Krishna and Arjuna knew well right from wrong and are heroes of the epic for the same reason.

Re: Panchali being docile. Nothing much is given about her thoughts and feelings prior to dice hall episode, so we can't really tell. One thing we see is that she worked her backside off as empress according to both Yudhishtira and Suyodhana. Given the position she carried in the setup, I wouldn't imagine docility as a key character trait. Rulers are rarely the shy, retiring type.

Re: dice hall being rape. It didn't get as far because she was set free. I'm sure no one until then imagined a woman being stripped naked in court, either, let alone the empress. With Suyodhana showing his thigh and Karna suggesting Panchali pick one of the men there to have sex with, rape wasn't far behind. So I wouldn't be quick to claim she wouldn't have been raped in court. If not there and then, soon and in the slave quarters Karna ordered Dusshasana to take her to. A stopped rape doesn't make the criminal any less monstrous. It merely makes the survivor's trauma less.

Going back to Arjuna speaking up, I think the disrobing made him realize what exactly was in store for Panchali as the Kaurava slave, prompting him to speak up. Whether or not there was love between them after swayamvar (I don't think there was), there was considerable connect after dice hall.

Satyavathi and Virat were not twins. Maybe Virat's grandfather or grandfather was her twin.

@Poorabhforever, good to see you here😊. Vyasa does tell Pandavas to go to Kampilya for swayamvar. Arjuna was chosen as representative because it was an archery contest. I too don't consider it superficial. They were in dire straits. Panchali was a woman he'd never met. It was a matter of survival for them to follow Vyasa's orders. The whole drama at the potter's hut was likely staged by mother and sons for Panchali's benefit. BIG CAVEAT: there is a scene before swayamvar where Arjuna follows a beautiful woman and is told she will be Panchali whom he is going to win. This makes me think he did meet her before. I haven't concluded on how it all computes into the political picture.

Disclaimer: Anything I say is based on the assumption they were all flesh and blood humans.

Hi. 😊

About the superficial bit i think i got confused with the way statement was worded it felt like arjun went there just for archery competition and not win panchali s hand in marriage which i think was prime motive because as you said the pandavas were dire consequences

About the potter house scene i also have another theory that not only did pandavas needed this alliance but so did panchal+Krishna wanted this alliance. And that is why this grand scheme of swaymawar was established. Not for arjun but mainly for yudhishtra. The plan was to seek out yudhishtra Arjun was just the medium because yudhishtra himself would have never no Matt how attracted he was would have ever try to seek drapaudi actively hence archery competition was set up to lure arjun. This also gives us reason why drapaudi who is smart opinionated woman was silent it was mutually beneficial relationship. Plus i personally dont find anything wrong in this as long as you respect and understanding in a relationship it should be ok.

Even my assumption is based considering them ad humans and not demi gods

Can anyone provide the citations that Arjun spoke up during the Cheer Haran incident. I am eager to know what he said as per KMG version. I don't remember reading anything about him speaking up, but I maybe wrong since someone said he did speak up. So it would be great if someone provides the citations.