Was Draupadi really disrobed in the Dice Hall? - Page 7

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Posted: 11 years ago
#61
This is a very fascinating theory almost at par with Da Vinci Code - the idea that the most dramatic, most popular and most infamous event of the epic is after all an extremely well concocted fan-fiction😛.

Some authors/researchers like Iravati Karve have attempted to secularize the epic out of the conviction that its a mythology created out of real events in human history, so they have tried to skin the fantasy elements to reveal, what they consider, historical events. But that's not the reason why I find this idea interesting - I don't consider MB to be literally true history - but rather because of the fact that the topic of Vastraharan is never repeated again by any character even though the events of dice hall are recounted through out the epic. Which means, if this assumption is right, Draupadi's insult in the earlier drafts was limited to dragging her and verbal assaults excluding Karna's incitement of disrobing (not that the rest is any less deplorable).

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Posted: 11 years ago
#62

Originally posted by: akhl



But I think, according to MB, it is Dharma whose ansh was Yudi for the following reasons
1. KMG translation of MB uses the word "illustrious Dharma" when referring to the Dharma who protected Draupadi. It uses the same term i.e. "illustrious Dharma" when referring to the Dharma whose ansh was Yudi. Therefore, it is fair to assume that the Sanskrit word used in MB at both the places is also the same.

2. KMG translation says "illustrious Dharma, remaining hidden". If Dharma means Draupadi's Pativrata dharma, then there was no need to use the phrase "remaining hidden" because we know Patrivrata dharma does not have any shape and size that there is any need for it to hide. Therefore, my interpretation is that here Dharma is the god of dharma who came to the dice hall but remained hidden.


If it was Dharma, whose ansh Yudi was, why didn't he stop his own ansh making this mistake? In which Dharma granth or book of laws followed during Dwapar Yuga, it is written, a wife becomes her husband's property after marriage & he can even stake her in Dhyut? This si not Dharma but a lack of courage to see what can be the result of his action.
Following the translation word to word at times makes it difficult to see the real msg the story is trying to convey. All the Puranas & scriptures are full of such hidden understanding. At least I like to search for such meanings.
varaali has given a good understanding of some hidden understang of MB here.
http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=3932467&TPN=24
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Posted: 11 years ago
#63
This thread's topic is was Draupadi really disrobed or not in the dice hall.
Other discussions about events, before, during & after dice game, VH, should be in the sticky thread.
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Posted: 11 years ago
#64
@ Ashwi_d, as argued earlier, the reverberation of this heinous act are implicitly woven into the deaths of its perpetrators in this tale... Even Cvs, having gone through brainstorming dissections, seem to have felt this connection, as they linked some of the 'ends' so explicitly today. Unfortunately again, in most distorted fashion, as is their wont. Curses and Krishna's witness indeed!🤢
Edited by smrth - 11 years ago
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Posted: 11 years ago
#65

Originally posted by: Surya_krsnbhakt

One thing I don't understand, why does everyone want to eliminate Krishna from the incident?

I mean, people say, "Well, we have to see it logically. So take out Krishna." How does taking out God from the equation make it logical?
And why is everyone hell-bent on considering Krishna's intervention as an interpolation to this incident? What is wrong if he saves Draupadi? What exactly is "Vaishnava addition" in this?
Doesn't the entire Mahabharata praise Lord Krishna?


P.S. Sorry for the rant. Nothing personal towards anyone.


because MB the book was written way before vaishnava traditions became predominant, I think earliest version of MB was written in later part of early Rig vedic era( wish someone could support/ refute it , I don't have the resources at hand right now), hence the Gods and their sons Indra and Agni have such such profound importance.
Also its pretty accepted fact, MB, with his huge amount of shlokas were not written by one person, over a significant period of time. Events and happenings were added, deleted, elaborated with time and contributor. That is why "Vyas " MB has quite a few contradictions as well.
That apart, MB is not just for believers. Like Hinduism makes place for everyone, MB also makes place for those who want to see it logically. I don't think there should be any dispute here. Even for some who believes in that all encompassing Mukang Karati Bachalang guy, like me for example, I somehow like to read MB and interpret the events more logically than thinking it as all great doing of the blue Lord.
To each his/her own I suppose.
Edited by LeadNitrate - 11 years ago
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Posted: 11 years ago
#66
There is fundamental flaw in looking for some 'probate quote' as its proof. By this standard, many of the events could be proved 'interpolated'! Not all might have recitation. In an epic, is it necessary to countersign each event with some explicit mention later? That makes it double the labour. In fact, even such 'acknowledgement' could have been interpolated! Just to make sure that 'interpolation' looks authentic!!
As such, in this particular case, perhaps absence of explicit mention is more natural. Consider this; All of Krishna's Miracles appear either 'unacknowledged' or 'not remembered' by witnesses. It fits. He does not want to reveal his true essence. For example; his Vishwaroop in Rajya Sabha. His Yog intervention at the time of Jaydratha's death. His invisible protection to Uttara's foetus. And most of all, his profound revelation Gita. Here he is, propounding greatest of the wisdom in front of 18 aukshihini Sena. Capping it with his Vishwaroop. Though witnessed by Sanjaya, none of the 'sea' surrounding Nar and Narayan could see what is happening. As if all are frozen and inert for a period. Does it render it interpolated? The point is, miracles are not explained nor reproofed. The questioned event comes under this spacial category- even in narrative. IMO.
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Posted: 11 years ago
#67
This is what eminent mythologist dr Devdutt Pattnaik says in his books. As you can see, three of his book describe same event in three different way.
Suffice to say Draupadi was dishonoured thoroughly. If not outright stripped of clothe, the dragging of her, itself should have had an effect on her clothings, she cannot arrive dressed immaculately, while being dragged on the sabha. That itself can be considered disrobing A person is nothing without their honour and shame. And the kauravas took that from draupadi.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Yudhishtira, the eldest of the five Pandava brothers, gambled away his kingdom, his brothers, himself, and finally their common wife, Draupadi, to their archenemies, the Kauravas. The Kauravas dragged Draupadi by the hair into the gambling hall and decided to humiliate the proud Pandava queen by disrobing her in public. This happened during Draupadi's menstrual period. Bound by the rules of the game and the laws of civilization, none of the kings, warriors, and noblemen assembled in the Kaurava court came to Draupadi's rescue. She stood there bleeding, naked, with hair unbound, seething with fury. Through tearful bloodshot eyes, she looked at her five husbands, who hung their heads in shame. The laws of dharma had failed in their promise to protect her. Man had abused her and would pay a terrible price. In her fury, Draupadi took an oath that she would not tie her hair until she had washed it with the blood of Kauravas. Mahabharata In the traditional retelling of the Mahabharata Draupadi is not disrobed. As the Kaurava Dushasana tugs on Draupadi's sari, he pulls out several hundred yards of cloth, and the sari is never undone. The miracle is attributed to Krishna, who is guardian of dharma and Vishnu incarnate. When Duryodhana orders Draupadi to sit on his left thigh"a place reserved for wives and concubines"the Pandava Bhima loses his temper and swears to break Duryodhana's thigh. All this does not stop Draupadi from taking her vow to wash her hair in blood. In one Tamil folk version of the Mahabharata, Draupadi's vow is more fierce, more dark. "I will wash my hair in Dushasana's blood. I will comb it with Duryodhana's hair. With Kaurava entrails will I tie it up, and with their hearts I will decorate it." As this vow is voiced, Draupadi with unbound hair appears less like the royal matriarch, queen of Indraprastha, wife of the five Pandavas, and mother of their five sons. She seems more a killer-goddess. The Kauravas transform into demons, the Pandavas into gods, with Krishna doing for them what Vishnu does for devas.

PATTANAIK, DEVDUTT (2000-09-01). The Goddess in India: The Five Faces of the Eternal Feminine (Kindle Locations 3496-3512). Inner Traditions Bear & Company. Kindle Edition.

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The ever-obedient Dusshasana went into the women's quarters where Draupadi sat with hair unbound dressed in a single cloth stained with blood. Draupadi was startled by his audacity but before she could protest, Dusshasana grabbed her by her hair and dragged her through the palace corridors into the gambling hall. Draupadi kicked and tried to hold on to the pillars, but to no avail. She was no match for Dusshasana's brute force. She screamed but the women in the palace corridors withdrew into the shadows, too terrified to help.

...
The gambling hall saw what could not be imagined" Draupadi, barely covered, hair unbound, pushed to the floor at Duryodhana's feet. Not one of the assembled men came to Draupadi's rescue. The elders maintained a stony silence while the Pandavas hung their heads in shame. For shame, stop! I am the daughter of the king of Panchala, your sister-in-law, the king's daughter-in-law,' cried Draupadi. No one responded.
...
Turning to Draupadi, who had disqualified him from participating in her swayamvara, he said, Ancient law allows a woman to go to only four men with the permission of her husband. You have been with five husbands. That makes you a wh**e, public property, to be treated as your master's will.' Yes, we can do anything we want with you,' said Duryodhana arrogantly. I want my slaves, all six of them, to be stripped of their clothes.' The Pandavas lowered their heads and did as told, removing their upper and their lower garments. Draupadi wailed at their misfortune. Her too,' said Duryodhana pointing to Draupadi, Strip her naked, Dusshasana. Let the world see the legendary beauty of our new slave.' Everyone was shocked by Duryodhana's instructions, yet not one spoke up: the Pandavas because they were not in a position to do so and the elders because they felt Duryodhana was behaving within the confines of dharma. Yuyutsu, Dhritarashtra's son by a maid, tried to protest. But he was silenced and so lowered his eyes in shame. Dhritarashtra, the king, said nothing because he loved his sons too much and could never find fault with them. Bhishma and Drona and Kripa struggled with their own emotions; no law had been broken, so they found it difficult to even register a protest. Draupadi realized she was all alone and helpless. As Dusshasana grabbed her robe and started to yank it, she raised her arms towards the heavens and cried, Save me, God, there is none but you who I can turn to.' Her wail reached the heavens. The pillars of the gambling hall began to weep. The skies turned dark. The sun hid in shame. Then, something happened" something truly incredible! Every time Dusshasana pulled away Draupadi's sari, he found her covered with another sari. When he pulled that away, he found her still covered with yet another sari. He pulled several reams of fabric off Draupadi's body but she remained covered, her honour intact.
This was unbelievable. This was without doubt a miracle, an act of God defying the laws of logic, space and time. God was on the side of Draupadi and against the Kauravas. God had stood up when man had not.



Pattanaik, Devdutt (2010-08-16). Jaya: An Illustrated Retelling of the Mahabharata (pp. 146-147). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

++++++++++++++++++++++

Draupadi, gambled away by her five husbands, now a Kaurava slave, is dragged by her hair, brought to the gambling hall and disrobed in public. She demands justice, appeals to clemency, but no one comes to her rescue. Everyone hides behind the letter of the law. The spirit of dharma is totally forgotten as Draupadi screams in horror and raises her arms in utter helplessness.

This is when Krishna reveals his divinity. Miraculously, bending space and time, Krishna ensures that every cloth that is removed from Draupadi's body is replaced by another cloth. This is Vishnu acting as Govinda, the cowherd, protecting the earth-cow who is being abused by her so-called guardians, the kings. He promises to rid the earth of such unrighteous kings. He promises to wash her tears with their blood.

PATTANAIK, DEVDUTT (2012-05-22). Seven secrets of Vishnu (Kindle Locations 1258-1261). Westland Publishing. Kindle Edition.

PATTANAIK, DEVDUTT (2012-05-22). Seven secrets of Vishnu (Kindle Locations 1254-1257). Westland Publishing. Kindle Edition.

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Posted: 11 years ago
#68
Thanks @ Leadnitrate for these citations. Various possibilities. All lead to one conclusion. Something very sinister was attempted to her person- even after serious humiliation meted out in the manner of drag. For after this drag, she had not lost the spirit or 'hope'... She barges on a counter and posts her 'question'. With hope that she would implicate elders, present there. So 'drag' was not her last trial. Something heinous was attempted. What was it? Even if 'not disrobing', something similar? And look at the terrible oath taken by Bhim (re Dushy the enactor) immediately after the 'event'...
Edited by smrth - 11 years ago
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Posted: 11 years ago
#69

Originally posted by: mnx12

If it was Dharma, whose ansh Yudi was, why didn't he stop his own ansh making this mistake? In which Dharma granth or book of laws followed during Dwapar Yuga, it is written, a wife becomes her husband's property after marriage & he can even stake her in Dhyut? This si not Dharma but a lack of courage to see what can be the result of his action.


I agree that this is not dharma. I agree that a wife does not become husband's property. However, let me respond to why Dharma did not stop Yudi. Suppose, for the sake of argument, it was Draupadi's pativrata dharma and not Dharma deva. Then also the same question can be asked. Even if Dharma deva did not come to the dice hall, he must be knowing what is going on, so if he wanted, he could have stopped Yudi. It is like asking why God allows any evil at all to happen in this world. Even when God does not incarnate, He knows what is going on, so He should be able to stop, then why doesn't He? If we find it ok not to have the answer to this question, then it should also be OK not to know why Dharma deva did not stop Yudi even if he indeed came to the dice hall.

Seeing the thread by Varali that you mentioned.
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Posted: 11 years ago
#70
What is the point of debate here? Lost track of the way this discussion shaped up thus far.

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