Krishna DID NOT offer Draupadi in *any* way to Karna (and my reasons))

Background: We have guy (Vyasa) writing about how a guy (Sauti) narrated to a bunch of other guys (rshis at Naimisharanya) the story he heard from a guy (Vaishampayana) telling another guy (Janmejaya) about how a guy (Sanjay) is telling another guy (Dhriti) a story about this conversation between two guys (KRISHNA and Karna). We know this is told from a third person narrative, and we don't know what the characters are thinking or their intentions.

That being said, the MB is a not a literal text and should not be taken as such. Since this is a translation, we have to consider the various angles of the story to ensure a proper flow and understanding.

The setting: KRISHNA takes Karna on his chariot and they head outside the city to have this conversation.

Just from a cursory reading, we can tell that this is a conversation about coronating Karna in a descriptive and sequential order.

We can also tell that in KMG, "as his wife was in parentheticals, which means it's his opinion, NOT a statement of fact. In other words, it's the translator's assumption of what he believes the author is saying. While KMG and Bori are taken as the most scholarly translations, parentheticals should not be taken as a statement of fact.

Let's look at the two lines before and after the line in question:

BEFORE:

[quote] All the kings and princes, again, that have been assembled for the Pandava-cause, and all the Andhakas and Vrishnis, will also embrace thy feet.

Let queens and princesses bring golden and silver and earthen jars (full of water) and delicious herbs and all kinds of seeds and gems, and creepers, for thy installation. [/quote]

AFTER:

[quote] Let that best of Brahmanas, Dhaumya, of restrained soul, pour libations of clarified butter on the (sacred) fire, and let those Brahmanas regarding all the four Vedas as authoritative (and who are acting as priests unto the Pandavas), perform the ceremony of thy installation.

Let the family priest of the Pandavas who is devoted to Vedic rites, and those bulls among men-those brothers, the five sons of Pandu,--and the five sons of Draupadi, and the Panchalas, and the Chedis, and myself also, install thee as the lord of the whole earth.

[/quote]

The context implies that the men will come and embrace his feet (as a form of accepting him as ruler). Then the women will bring things like water jars, herbs, seeds, and gems for his installation.

Then Draupadi is mentioned as coming in at the sixth period "as his wife (or to have sex as BORI mentions).

After that, the official ceremony of installation him to the throne will begin. Draupadi's line is completely out of line and has nothing to do with the narrative.

It's like me shouting SEX randomly in a conversation, and then continuing on as if nothing ever happened. That doesn't make sense, SEX, because it has no appropriate meaning either taken alone or within the context. If KRISHNA were to imply that, he would have mentioned that elsewhere, where it would have a stronger effect and intent alone. Using the SEX example.

If I say:

That doesn't make sense because it has no appropriate meaning ...

Also, Sex.

There's a clear intent and meaning behind "sex singled out versus inserted randomly between words.

To add, Karna doesn't respond to this one bit in his reply.

Here is what I think:

Sanskrit:

Source: https://sanskritdocuments.org/mirrors/mahabharata/unic/mbh05_sa.html

ShaShThe tvAM cha tathA kAle draupadyupagamiShyati .. 5-140-15

Source: https://sanskritdocuments.org/mirrors/mahabharata/mbhK/mahabharata-k-05-itx.html

The first few words are easily understandable (I used http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?direct=au to translate).

At the sixth period Draupadi <something> you.

Upagami means arriving, coming near, or approaching.

Shyati was a bit harder to discern: The closest I could find that is similar to the Sanskrit is:

So we can make an assumption that this word has something do with reciprocation/reciprocity. The last two words modify Draupadi, so we can assume that Draupadi is doing the action.

At the sixth period Draupadi approaches you reciprocally (?)

We now have a rough translation, let's analyze the words.

"Sixth period we can tell that means dusk.

1. Dawn; 2. Morning; 3. Noon; 4. Afternoon; 5. Evening; 6. Dusk; 7. Night.

We also know that the first and sixth periods are the most auspicious (dawn and dusk) in Vedic traditions. And based on the context, we know that this is a continuous chain of events. We don't see any transitional phrases like "the following morning to suggest otherwise.

Approaches has a fairly general meaning. It is interesting that Draupadi approaches Karna though. If we look at the traditions of kings in that period. The wives had their own chambers, and the King would move to each queen's room. The wife never comes to the king, the king goes to the wife he wants to sleep with (or if he wants to be alone, he sleeps in his chambers).

And finally, "reciprocation. This is where KMG and BORI mistranslate (you can't get wife or sex from any word in that line). They take this as a sexual innuendo, when there doesn't have to be a sexual reference to have a reciprocation.

In attempting to solve this last word, I'd like to reiterate the previous lines. Notice how the topic changes from men will touch his feet -> women will bring the supplies for the ceremony-> and Draupadi will also come.

For there to be reciprocation we need to establish both parties. We know that Draupadi will come to Karna, so Party 1 is Karna and Party 2 is Draupadi. Now we need to figure out what they are reciprocating.

I think there may be two:

1) Draupadi would treat Karna different now that he was a member of the family, sort of like "letting bygones be bygones. Karna (hopefully) wouldn't see Draupadi in a negative light after joining the Pandavas, and Draupadi wouldn't see Karna as an instigator of her insult.

2) Or it's just mimicking the other women? Draupadi is helping/supporting Karna's coronation like the other queens and princesses (but Draupadi is the chief queen of the Pandavas, so she gets her own line).

I'll leave it to the scholars of the forum to decide and critique my reasoning. I'm not a Sanskrit scholar, this was all logical analysis for me.

END // Thank you for reading.

[quote]end up posting comedy based on self assumptions. Just because who write long reply doesn't mean you prove anything. You have to prove point not like eassy writting[/quote]

Yeah, it's called critical analysis. In both texts, one thing is stated. You would have to be an idiot to think that somehow flipping the pages of the book is going to change the meaning.

So I turned to analyzing what was being said - that's what a reasonable person would do. And I did prove a point. There can be another explanation that fits as well.

[quote]According to your logic we should not take debory and KMG serious. why just because it doesnt suit your expectations? Both scholars have great knowledge of sanskrit and they knew very well how to translate verse. Both translated verse in same way means they are right. One scholar can mistake not two[/quote]

No. What I said was that they are both translators. Ultimately, it's their decision and their interpretation based on their understanding on Sanskrit. It means that we recognize that these two as the highest quality translation, thus far. Does that mean that they are free from errors? No. If the book was translated accurately 99% of the time, who gives a shit if 1% was poorly translated when the rest have a greater margin of error. Does that make sense?

I'm not saying that they are inaccurate; I'm saying a margin of error does exist, and this could possibly be mistranslated.

[quote]

Your assumptions about 6th period in indeed funny it gave me cancer.hahahaha[/quote]

Why would you laugh about getting cancer? Do you want cancer? Or are you mocking a cancer patient? What's the end game here, beyond that you're insanely stupid.

[quote]

6th period is not about morning and night. LOL Draupadi was handed over to each pandav for spefifice period thats why there are 5 periods for 5 pandavas. Karna was added to list thats why krishna mentioned 6th period reservation for karna[/quote]

I believe the agreement was that Draupadi would be the "wife" of a single Pandava per year. Year 1: Yudhi; Year 2: Bhim; Year 3: Arjun; Year 4: Nakul; Year 5: Sahadev. 6th period does not mean year.

The line from each:

Debroy: "At the sixth point in time (footnote: after the five pandavas)

KMG: "During the sixth period ... (as a wife).

This raises a few points:

1. If the sequence was eldest to youngest, why is Karna number 6. We can argue that it's cyclical so Karna being sixth is the same as Karna being first. But why word it as "six, which as Debroy notates means "after; why not word it as first? That would also have a stronger effect.

2. The footnotes and parentheticals are their respective opinions. It does not specifically say in the Sanskrit "after the five pandavas or "as a wife. All we can discern is "sixth and "something time related. How do we understand this? We look at the context. From the context, we know KRISHNA is talking about Karna's coronation. The coronation doesn't mean it will be post-poned until it's Karna's year, if it was, then KRISHNA would have led with that or ended with that. That interjection is the worst time to mention that.

To answer #1: We have to look at the context. There was no "sixth point of time that existed in the way either translator intended. It's not Y/B/A/N/S <GAP> Y/B/A/N/S <GAP>. Also, note that it's not repetitive either. "(During) Each sixth period ... Draupadi ... is more fitting than the singular used.

Further, Karna is stated to be the eldest Pandava. If Draupadi was truly offered, she would be with Karna first. The sixth point must mean something different.

Also "handed over" is a disgusting way to phrase that.

[quote] Do you consider yourself more knowledgeable than prof.Debroy? According to debory, karna-draupadi statement 'Upagama' means intercourse and in sanskrit dictionary upagama has many meaning and one of them is 'intercourse'

[/quote]

I'm going to say "Yes just to piss you off.

Look at the image you posted it has multiple meaning. Debroy: Intercourse; KMG: approach.

Also, do you think that Debroy is more knowledgeable than KMG? They translated the words differently, so clearly someone is more knowledgeable. /sarcasm

Looking at the image you provided, it seems to me that Debroy mistranslated it. The majority translations point to "approaching or "entering. Also, intercourse is a very broad word. We in modern times) connotate it to "sex, but intercourse could also mean communication or discussion. Going by the other translations posted "agreement, promise, I would imagine intercourse would follow the same line of thought.

[quote] See here one of the meaning of 'upagama' is INTERCOURSE thats why debory and KMG mentioned intercourse between karn draupadi during SIXTH period[/quote]

KMG never mentions sexual intercourse between Karna and Draupadi. He simply says that Draupadi comes to Karna (as his wife).

Also really, aren't you grabbing at straws by pulling out a single meaning...

[quote] For karna Duryodhan both scholars used different meaning according to requirement of statement. I think ved vyass fans should stop quoting mistakes of great scholars like Debroy and KMG. Try to improve your sanskrit[/quote]

I am improving my Sanskrit by analyzing it. It's learning experience you dunce.

[quote] when pandav fanatics can't prove anything all they can do is to blame Debroy and Kmg just because their translation doesn''t suit their assumptions. Hahahahahaha

Poor people can't provide any proof from debory & Kmg translation but always cry selling lies by self invented sanskrit translation. Poor people even dont know that same word same meaning logic ends when it comes to sanskrit. You all should jump in fire just because krishna offered draupadi to karn for sexual intercourse both debory and Kmg translations are fake. Hahahahahaha

Open challenge to all vyass fans. Prove anything by using translations not self interpretation but I know they dont have any proofs just crook up theory. I can see their tears each time they read authentic translations and in all translations krishna offered draupadi to karna for SEXUAL INTERCOURSE. Yes SEXUAL

[/quote]

Again, you can't look directly at Debroy's and KMG's MB and say that they are wrong because of something they claimed somewhere else in their text. Since these two are the leading translations, bringing in another translation wouldn't serve a purpose either. I brought in a valid argument to critique the translation.