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TheEngineer

@TheEngineer

Explorer

Posted: 16 years ago

Some points coming for discussion from the following post:
http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1055080&PID=18991531&#18991531

whenever people say karna cheated while killing abhimanyu..they should also think that it was Pandavas who cheated on the war first and they cheated even more than Kauravs........

1) using shikandi to kill pitamaah
2) killing unarmed Drona while he was in meditation....
3) killing karna while he was unarmed.....
4) Bheema killed Duryodhan by hitting mace below his waist......
4) Krishna interupted to save arjun when Karna shot his Nagastra
5) krishan desired for sunset when Karna was about to kill arjuna again. ..Karna could have killed him after the sunset but he didn't do it a good commander in chief.
6) Krishan saving Arjuna by making a solar eclipse so that Arjun can fulfill his vow to kill Jaydratha before sunset.

Point to discuss:
Is it ok to leave dharma to kill Adharmi people? Being Dharma's side, Pandavas must have won the war without cheating.. Anyway, we are not that capable to judge those great souls.. but still, these points can be a starting point for some discussion.. What is the difference between a Dharmi and Adharmi if the Dharmi follows the way of Adharmi for killing him..

This being a religious topic, there can be many views about this topic.. so please don't get personal and address everything to the forum, not to a particular member..

Cheers!

Edited by shyam.rathi - 16 years ago

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Janaki

@RamKiSeeta

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+ 6

Posted: 16 years ago

It is alright to follow unfair ways to kill Adharmi people, since Lord Krishna himself told Arjuna not to have any doubts about killing the Kauravas in the Bhagavat-Gita.

People who follow Adharma deserve to die no matter what, whether it is by fair or unfair means. It all depends on the Supreme Lord whether he wants to use fair or unfair means to kill sinners. Like in the Ram Avatara. Shri Ram used fair means and killed Ravan in a fair way, because Ravan wasn't as evil as the Kauravas, but in the Krishna Avatara, Shri Krishna himself said the Kauravas deserved to die that way, because they were beyond evil. (I am not including Bhishma, Karna, or Drona when I say Kauravas, because they were great people who were just on the wrong side and therefore had to die.)

For example, if someone killed terrorists in an unfair way, would it be Adharma?

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Janaki

@RamKiSeeta

Achiever

+ 6

Posted: 16 years ago

Duryodhan was so selfish and jealous of the Pandavas that even after they suffered their exile, he would not give them their kingdom back, The rules per the second dice game were that whoever lost would have to go into exile for 12 years and the 13th year incognito, and the winner would protect their kingdom for them and give it back to them after their exile. The Pandavas followed the rules; the Kauravas didn't. Now tell me, who are the Adharmis?

Any bloodshed that happened on the Kurukshetra was all Duryodhan's fault, because it was due to his obstinacy and stubborness that his best friend Karna died, his grandsire Bheeshma, and his guru Drona. He, who rightly should have returned Indraprastha to the Pandavas after their exile, is the reason for everyone's death, on both sides.

Why does everyone think the Pandavas should have keeped quiet when Duryoudhan refused to give back the kingdom? It was theirs, and if they followed the rules of the dice game, so should Duryodhan. Seriously, Duryodhan had Hastinapura. Indraprastha was rightfully the Pandavas. They were the ones who had it made into a flourishing city when the Kauravas' father gave them a barren land. What would you all have done if your home was taken unfairly from you, and then not given back to you when you fulfilled the rules of your exile?

The Kauravas had to be punished both for insulting a woman in a heinous way and being selish and immoral enough not to return the Pandavas' kingdom to them. Shri Krishna said the way they died was deserved, and those who do not act like true warriors don't deserve to die like them either.

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Mango Bhai!

@Lord-Mangeshwar

Rocker

Posted: 16 years ago

I like the question at the end of the first post by godisone 👏

Anyways, just a correction to Shyam's first post - Shikhandi did not kill Bheeshma Pitamah 😆 But yeah, Shikhandi was the instrumental one in bringing down the great warrior in battle.

And one more to add to the list:

- Arjuna shot off the arm of Bhurisravas' limb from his blind side as he was attacking Yadav warrior Satyaki.

An explanation for given for that action though, and I personally found it fair enough 😊

God bless.

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TheEngineer

@TheEngineer

Explorer

Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: godisone
For example, if someone killed terrorists in an unfair way, would it be Adharma?

Yes, it is Adharama.. No one is a terrorist until convicted by law.. Who has the right to define someone as terrorist until it has been finalized by due process of law? One can't kill someone in an unfair way until it has been proven and even if it has been proven, one has to punish him or her using the judicial orders which will not be unfair.. So, killing anyone unfairly is an Adharma..

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Janaki

@RamKiSeeta

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+ 6

Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: shyam.rathi

Yes, it is Adharama.. No one is a terrorist until convicted by law.. Who has the right to define someone as terrorist until it has been finalized by due process of law? One can't kill someone in an unfair way until it has been proven and even if it has been proven, one has to punish him or her using the judicial orders which will not be unfair.. So, killing anyone unfairly is an Adharma..

Then would that make Lord Krishna and adharmi, since he was the one who convinced the Pandavas to fight "unfairly"?

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Charu

@Krinya

Trailblazer

+ 8

Posted: 16 years ago

then shyam, who will decide what is dharm and what is adharm? We can only go back to our epics and scriptures if we want the answers and IF we believe in them..Lord Ram killed Vali from behind but it's never said that it was adharm..because Vali never followed dharm so how can he expect fair fight?? Arjun killing Bheeshma, Drhistadyun killing Drona, Arjun killing Karna, Yudhistir telling a lie, Abhimanyu's killing , Duryodhan's killing, killing of Pandavas sons etc. etc . was "adharm" but pandavas were not adharmi..they were fighting for "victory of dharm" and that was their ultimate objective...the person who broke the rules first is the one to be blamed, this theory can't work here....Mahabharat war was NOT fair..

Is it fair for Bheeshma to come to the battlefield with this boon that he can only die when he wishes to? Where there is Krishna, there is dharm and where there is dharm, therez victory!

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Janaki

@RamKiSeeta

Achiever

+ 6

Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: luv_khwaish
then shyam, who will decide what is dharm and what is adharm? We can only go back to our epics and scriptures if we want the answers and IF we believe in them..Lord Ram killed Vali from behind but it's never said that it was adharm..because Vali never followed dharm so how can he expect fair fight?? Arjun killing Bheeshma, Drhistadyun killing Drona, Arjun killing Karna, Yudhistir telling a lie, Abhimanyu's killing , Duryodhan's killing, killing of Pandavas sons etc. etc . was "adharm" but pandavas were not adharmi..they were fighting for "victory of dharm" and that was their ultimate objective...the person who broke the rules first is the one to be blamed, this theory can't work here....Mahabharat war was NOT fair..

Is it fair for Bheeshma to come to the battlefield with this boon that he can only die when he wishes to? Where there is Krishna, there is dharm and where there is dharm, therez victory!

I agree Charu. Only God decides what is Dharma and what is Adharma. Shri Krishna told us beautifully in the Bhagavat-Gita how to tell each apart.

The Pandavas didn't fight the war to get their kingdom back. They fought the war because Duryodhana and his brothers sinned, and they should be punished. Dhritarastra, who was the true king, failed to punish his sons. A King's first duty is to minister justice no matter who the culprit is. If it was a commoner who dared to disrobe Draupadi instead of Dushashana, I bet you that Dhritarastra wouldn't have thought twice before punishing that commoner, but noooooo, Dushashana and Duryodhana were his sons, so they get special treatment.😕 A King mustn't do that. To him, everyone must be equal, and since Yudhisthira was the emperor of the world due to the Rajasuya, it became his duty to punish the Kauravas when Dhritarastra didn't.

Every living being must die, so Bhishma had to die. He had a boon that he wouldnt' die until he wanted to, and even then, until he layed down his arms. Him joining the war itself was unfair, because due to his boon, no one could kill him. Shri Krishna was the most powerful of all, but he didn't join the war, because without an effort, he could have killed all of the Kaurava army, including Bhishma, Drona, and Karna. Bhishma should have done that too; not join the war but just give moral support to the Kauravas like Shri Krishna did for the Pandavas.

And the Pandavas didn't kill Drona unfairly. This is how the story goes.

Shri Krishna told Yudhisthira to tell Drona that Ashwathama was killed, so that he would give up, but Dharmaraja refused to do that, because that would be telling a lie and he never told lies. Then Bhima went and killed an elephant named Ashwathama and annonced loudly, "I killed Ashwathama! I killed Ashwathama!"

Drona refused to believe that his valiant son was killed, and asked Yudhisthira if it was true. He had trust in Dharmaraja, because he never told lies. With a heavy heart, Yudhisthira announced, "Ashwathama Hatha...Kunjaraha!" Meaning, "Ashwathama is dead...the elephant!"

But when Yudhisthira was saying, "the elephant", Shri Krishna blew his conch loudly, and the word was died down. Drona only heard that Ashwathama was killed, and layed down his weapons in despair. Before Dhristadyumna severed Drona's head, Ved Vyas wrote that Drona's soul already left his body, so basically, he gave up his life, not Dhristadyumna.

Also, another reason for Drona's death was that he was a Brahmin, and a brahmin should not take up arms. Although a Brahmin Sage, Dronacharya fought in the war, and that too on the Kauravas' side, so he had to die.

As for Karna, he had so many curses trailing after him that became the reason for his death. And he also performed some injustices and supported Duryodhana in his evil deeds. The duty of a friend, any friend, is to support their friend when they are doing something moral and chastize their friend when they are straying on the path of sin. Karna always supported Duryodhana, and never chastized him.

And Shyam, please also list the injustices and unfairness that the Kauravas did to the Pandavas, or else it seems like you're putting all the blame on the Pandavas.

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Janaki

@RamKiSeeta

Achiever

+ 6

Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: shyam.rathi

Yes, it is Adharama.. No one is a terrorist until convicted by law.. Who has the right to define someone as terrorist until it has been finalized by due process of law? One can't kill someone in an unfair way until it has been proven and even if it has been proven, one has to punish him or her using the judicial orders which will not be unfair.. So, killing anyone unfairly is an Adharma..

I don't believe it's Adharma. Terrorists kill thousands of millions of innocent people, including small children and helpless women. They are the least deserving of fairness in death, and any Adharma involved in killing them will be Dharma only, because we will be ridding the world of one sinful person, and the weight Mata Prithvi Devi (Goddess Earth) bears will be less.

And there are so many terrorists not convicted by law, because they manage to escape. Do they deserve to die fairly? They still killed lots of people, and for that paap, they already have a place in Hell, but they most certainly don't deserve fair deaths.

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ananyacool

@ananyacool

Voyager

Posted: 16 years ago

#10

Originally posted by: godisone

I agree Charu. Only God decides what is Dharma and what is Adharma. Shri Krishna told us beautifully in the Bhagavat-Gita how to tell each apart.

The Pandavas didn't fight the war to get their kingdom back. They fought the war because Duryodhana and his brothers sinned, and they should be punished. Dhritarastra, who was the true king, failed to punish his sons. A King's first duty is to minister justice no matter who the culprit is. If it was a commoner who dared to disrobe Draupadi instead of Dushashana, I bet you that Dhritarastra wouldn't have thought twice before punishing that commoner, but noooooo, Dushashana and Duryodhana were his sons, so they get special treatment.😕 A King mustn't do that. To him, everyone must be equal, and since Yudhisthira was the emperor of the world due to the Rajasuya, it became his duty to punish the Kauravas when Dhritarastra didn't.

Every living being must die, so Bhishma had to die. He had a boon that he wouldnt' die until he wanted to, and even then, until he layed down his arms. Him joining the war itself was unfair, because due to his boon, no one could kill him. Shri Krishna was the most powerful of all, but he didn't join the war, because without an effort, he could have killed all of the Kaurava army, including Bhishma, Drona, and Karna. Bhishma should have done that too; not join the war but just give moral support to the Kauravas like Shri Krishna did for the Pandavas.

And the Pandavas didn't kill Drona unfairly. This is how the story goes.

Shri Krishna told Yudhisthira to tell Drona that Ashwathama was killed, so that he would give up, but Dharmaraja refused to do that, because that would be telling a lie and he never told lies. Then Bhima went and killed an elephant named Ashwathama and annonced loudly, "I killed Ashwathama! I killed Ashwathama!"

Drona refused to believe that his valiant son was killed, and asked Yudhisthira if it was true. He had trust in Dharmaraja, because he never told lies. With a heavy heart, Yudhisthira announced, "Ashwathama Hatha...Kunjaraha!" Meaning, "Ashwathama is dead...the elephant!"

But when Yudhisthira was saying, "the elephant", Shri Krishna blew his conch loudly, and the word was died down. Drona only heard that Ashwathama was killed, and layed down his weapons in despair. Before Dhristadyumna severed Drona's head, Ved Vyas wrote that Drona's soul already left his body, so basically, he gave up his life, not Dhristadyumna.

There are two aspects of Dharma: Swadharma and Shreyas; Swadharma is what one must do due to his nature and Shreyas -what is good for the society should be done.

Karna, Bheeshma and Drona stuck to their 'swadharma' when they supported Kauravas also Drona taking up arms is perfectly fine he chose it as his profession of teaching the princes so also with Parashurama who was also a brahmin by birth but took arms as a means of self defense to protect himself and his family from the tyranny of Sahasrarjuna. In a varna system a brahmin can become a Kshatriya i.e taking up arms also he could become a 'vaishya' /trader if he chose as a means of his livelihood.

Now coming to swadharma and Shreyas, while Bheeshma,Karna, Drona and Kripacharya stuck to swadharma, Yuyutsu-half brother of Kauravas chose shreyas i.e he shifted to Pandavas for the good of his clan and siding with Dharma.

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