Akbar's reforms and remarkable achievements - Page 9

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staker123 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#81

Originally posted by: sashashyam

No, Adiana, for he says, You Rajvanshis might think so but we Mughals do not. He says that independently of the stabbing in the back issue; he does not say Yes, but these Mughal warriors did not die a hero's death as they were killed by deceit.

He talks as though Mughal tradition did not think of battlefield deaths as honourable, which I for one refuse to believe.

It was a badly written line. Well, I am off, for my eyes are protesting loudly and if I get sucked into this discussion, they will pack up altogether. It is lovely to have touched base with you after quite a while.

Shyamala







i agree with shyamala aunty
that dialogue was beyond understanding
adiana12 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#82

Originally posted by: sashashyam

No, Adiana, for he says, You Rajvanshis might think so but we Mughals do not. He says that independently of the stabbing in the back issue; he does not say Yes, but these Mughal warriors did not die a hero's death as they were killed by deceit.

He talks as though Mughal tradition did not think of battlefield deaths as honourable, which I for one refuse to believe.

It was a badly written line. Well, I am off, for my eyes are protesting loudly and if I get sucked into this discussion, they will pack up altogether. It is lovely to have touched base with you after quite a while.

Shyamala






Do take care Shyamala. But to me that line seemed more as one to be interpreted with the lines that followed but yes it was not a well written dialogue if the lines are taken independent of each other.
Sandhya.A thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#83

Originally posted by: preeti.r

Wow nice post Sandhya , He did bring in quite a few important changes , for which he must have faced stiff resistance but because he was courageous enough to face them didn't shy away from introducing more such reforms.

He wanted to bring the entire Hindustan under one rule, unite it , bring in positive changes yet he was called an outsider.

Yes there were mistakes made by him , can't forget the chitor fort . Yet one can't ignore the visionary he was .

ThankYou Preeti.
Akbar's liberal thoughts, tolerance, acceptance, humanism combined with his determination, shrewdness, smartness, strength and will-power and his love of art, architecture, literature and religious nature makes him a human par excellence.
Sandhya.A thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#84

Originally posted by: sashashyam

Sandhya my dear,

I came here just for you, and this is the only thread I have read in the last few days, thanks to the state of my eyes.

This is truly a most necessary initiative, and I am delighted that you took the trouble to collate all this. information. You should ask for this thread to be made a sticky one (?) so that it stays on the front page of the forum index, and you should also update it periodically as the individual reforms are, hopefully, covered in the serial One expects that most of them, perhaps bar the financial ones, will be credited to Jodha, but never mind.

Some small additional points. Non-Muslims in the Mughal empire, which meant, in practice, very largely Hindus, had to pay the jaziya. But they were exempted from the zakat Muslims were expected to pay, which could be as high as 2.5% of their capital assets in the previous lunar year.

It would be interesting if you or someone else could find out the relative rates for the jaziya (which was compulsory) and the supposedly voluntary zakat.

Of course the loss to the exchequer because of the jaziya abolition would have been heavy, as the majority of the population would have been covered under the jaziya every year, whereas the pilgrimage tax was only for the non-Muslim pilgrims. In the film, they showed the Hindu Revenue Minister, Raja Todar Mal, initially reluctant to remove the jaziya as it would have made such a dent in his revenues for any given year!

Akbar's widow remarriage reform would have been only for non-Muslims, as there was never any problem for Muslim widows.Anyhow, the reform was forgotten some time later as the Mughal empire decayed, and had to be revived, lobbied for, and renacted in the 19th century, at the initiative of Raja Ram Mohan Roy and his fellow campaigners.

It was the same with the Sati abolition, I did not know that Akbar had tried to remove it; I was very pleased to learn that.

That was one issue with which Jodha might not have bothered too much, for though it was far from being the norm even for medieval queens - in the Mahabharata, only Madri, the mother of Nakul and Sahadev, commits Sati when Pandu dies, not Kunti - it was seen, like the sister custom of jauhar, as a badge of honour for the women and for the families. In fact The Sati custom was most prevalent only in Rajasthan and West Bengal till the early 19th century. It was unknown in South India. Over time, of course, it degenerated from a voluntary demonstration of a wife's love for her husband, and her courage, into an ugly tradition forced on the widows for purely mercenary reasons linked to the family property. It was Ram Mohan Roy and his ilk who persuaded the reluctant Gov. General William Bentinck to abolish Sati by law; the British feared a popular uprising that they did not want to have to tackle. In the event, there was no such violent reaction, for the time for the abolition of Sati had come.

As for slavery, his real problem would have been in enforcing it across such a vast empire. As I had written yesterday on my last thread, there were flourishing public slave markets in the southern United States till slavery was abolished in 1865.

If one takes even a cursory look at the book, Gone with the Wind, one will understand that.
Africans were sold by their chiefs in Africa, brought to New Orleans in overloaded cargo vessels in chains. Many died in transit and were written off as bad lots.

Then they were put on public display and auctioned. The old Slave Market in New Orleans is now a ghoulish tourist spot. Families were very often split apart at these sales. In the GWTW book, Gerald O'Hara's wife persuades him to buy the wife and daughter of a male slave he has bought, so that the family could be together.

Great Britain abolished slavery in its colonies only in 1839. Till then, most of the great English fortunes were based on slave labour in the West Indian and African plantations. As for the atrocities perpetrated in the Belgian Congo, which was the personal property of King Leopold II, till the late 19th century, are concerned, even a brief account of them would turn your stomach.

So the kind of 16th century slave markets, at which the prisoners of war were sold, which were shown on Saturday, are nothing new, or peculiar to Mughal India. The only thing is that the slaves would not have been kept starved and thirsty, if only because they would not sell well if they looked so bedraggled. Plus, no one would have carted old women along, they would not have been worth anything.

Akbar was clearly one of the greatest administrative, financial and social reformers of all time. That he could achieve all that he did without being able to read and write magnifies the brilliance of the man, his grasp of detail, the breadth of his social vision, and his iron will. One can be sure that Akbar would not have wasted a week acting as the Election Commissioner for choosing his Harem Superintendent!😉

The only one comparable to Akbar for the sheer range and complexity, and the seminal importance of his reforms was Napoleon, who had the disadvantage of having ruled only for 20 years - as against 50 years for Akbar - as the First Consul and then as the Emperor of France, and that too constantly having to fight wars against his European enemies. Still, he found time to enact the Code Napoleon, which lasted till the 20th century with changes and is still the basis of the legal systems of France and many European countries.

Shyamala Aunty

PS: Why does Jalal say in the Saturday mahaepisode that the concept of dying bravely in battle being considered an honourable death was not prevalent among Mughals? I could not understand it at all.

Thankyou so much aunty for troubling your eyes and commenting here.😊
@blue : This being a tv serial I think it is a given that Jodha will be given most of the credits. But now I am tired of lamenting about it and have accepted it. I only hope that they don't make Jalal a complete dimwit as they did in the Tasneem track.
I will check out on zakat and jaziya aunty.
Aunty, as far as Akbar's abolishing forced Sati goes, Donjas has erlated an interesting anectode a few pages earlier, that Akbar on learning that a queen was being forced, set out on horseback and travelled hundreds of kilometres to reach and stop the ritual on time. His bodyguards couldn't catch up with his speed and they came behind him!
@red: couldn't agree with you more aunty. There are quite a few Emperors in India whom I admire but Akbar and Raja Raja Chola stand out. They were both self made men with such sense of justice and enterprise and forward thinking and lovers of Art and literature and nation builders! While Raja Raja Chola who lived and ruled 500 years before Akbar, was himself flawless had everything perfect in life, Akbar missed a cosetted childhood, literacy and a devoted son, both of which the other king had! Raja Raja had actually divided his kingdom into provinces and held elections in each! He also built a fantastic navy and conquered overseas! But Akbar ruled a larger kingdom and a pluralistic one too. He faced stiffer opposition and achieved so much even without knowing to read or write!
preeti.r thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#85
Shyamala ji ,

It's possible they meant the Mughals believe in killing their opponents rather than dying.
He didn't mean it from honour POV I think.

Originally posted by: sashashyam

No, Adiana, for he says, You Rajvanshis might think so but we Mughals do not. He says that independently of the stabbing in the back issue; he does not say Yes, but these Mughal warriors did not die a hero's death as they were killed by deceit.

He talks as though Mughal tradition did not think of battlefield deaths as honourable, which I for one refuse to believe.

It was a badly written line. Well, I am off, for my eyes are protesting loudly and if I get sucked into this discussion, they will pack up altogether. It is lovely to have touched base with you after quite a while.

Shyamala





swaram thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#86
Wow! Thank you guys, you share such valuable information to us. I agree that I got interested in history as never before after JA and posts from Abhay and all of you have made it even more intersting to follow the serial.Great job and TFS!
Jaz713 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#87

Originally posted by: Cleo12345


Hi Jaz, I grew up in India but spent most of my youth in the US. I know a little bit about both cultures and consider myself to be loyal to both nations. I agree with you on several points...
1. Open minded people... Mostly true, though not always... Have you ever lived in the bible belt?
2. Taught to question facts... I love this about their culture. And who says that Americans don't respect their elders? They do.
3. There is no need for them to spend pages on the Mughals. Just like Indian history books don't spend pages on the American civil war.

However, what Albakry said is also not entirely false. Especially when it comes to information about other countries. The media is surprisingly quite biased and focuses on self glorification. No wonder, most americans didn't know what hit them on 9/11. I remember that day clearly. Everyone was asking...why us? We are good people. We help other nations. How can anyone hate us? A majority is still clueless and thinks it is because people are jealous of their achievements. Most people don't have a clue about foriegn policies and international affairs. To them, India is a land of extreme poverty, cows on street, curry and Taaj Mahaaal...and of course outsourcing due to 'cheap labor'...not better skills. The only program on American tv that does a good job of reporting international affairs is Fareed Zakaria's GPS on CNN( no, he did not pay me to write this😊) How many times have you seen a program on Japan, Germany or Australia that highlights their achievements, foriegn policy ans other positives on main channels. They gave more footage to the gang rapes in India than the mission to Mars. This is human nature...to feel better by seeing someone else's misery. We all fall for it. But, in today's well connected world...fighting Ignorance is not a choice...it is a necessity. Otherwise, we keep basking in our glory and remain unprepared for the future.

Sandhya, I am sorry...I'll stop here. I didnt want to distract anyone from your awesome post. But since this came up...I just shared my views. Hope you don't mind it. 😊


Of course media is biased, I would like to know which media isn't. 😆 I've visited many states and I've taken road trips across the country and yes, I've visited the "Bible Belt". But, when I'm talking about a pervasive culture, it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone has those views - that is a misconception. Generally, Americans would rate higher on openness and individualism than other countries - that is a fact.

Your reasons are partly why Americans were surprised by 9/11 but it was more along the lines of Americans being deluded that they were the most powerful nation and that no threat was big enough that it couldn't be handled. People were angry that the administration could have swept this looming threat under the rug.

I agree that many Americans believe Slumdog Millionaire constitutes India. But honestly, how open are other countries about America? They believe it's the land of brash people who know little about geography - this is what I've seen in movies. 😆 I believe America is moving past stereotypes about Indians (Just look to people such as Mindy Kaling in the media).

I made one little comment about not reading about Akbar in my history book to show how little I know about him and it turned into this! 😆
Sandhya.A thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#88

Originally posted by: swaram

Wow! Thank you guys, you share such valuable information to us. I agree that I got interested in history as never before after JA and posts from Abhay and all of you have made it even more intersting to follow the serial.Great job and TFS!


It is a pleasure.

I am only an Akbar buff😆
Abhay is the history buff here.😆
Cleo12345 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#89

Originally posted by: Jaz713


Of course media is biased, I would like to know which media isn't. 😆 I've visited many states and I've taken road trips across the country and yes, I've visited the "Bible Belt". But, when I'm talking about a pervasive culture, it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone has those views - that is a misconception. Generally, Americans would rate higher on openness and individualism than other countries - that is a fact.

Your reasons are partly why Americans were surprised by 9/11 but it was more along the lines of Americans being deluded that they were the most powerful nation and that no threat was big enough that it couldn't be handled. People were angry that the administration could have swept this looming threat under the rug.

I agree that many Americans believe Slumdog Millionaire constitutes India. But honestly, how open are other countries about America? They believe it's the land of brash people who know little about geography - this is what I've seen in movies. 😆 I believe America is moving past stereotypes about Indians (Just look to people such as Mindy Kaling in the media).

I made one little comment about not reading about Akbar in my history book to show how little I know about him and it turned into this! 😆

You are right...it turned into this. 😆 I agree with you on several points...though not all. But this is not the place to discuss it. I'll will try not to bore people who are reading this post for Akbar and not my expert comments on india and US😆But I would like to clarify that I am very pro America. In fact, to be honest, I don't think I could have been this successful in India for various reasons. Lack of opportunities, corruption and reservation to name a few. I try my best to have an unbiased opinion and not compare the two countries. That wouldn't be fair. Btw road trips are so much fun. I drove from DC to Niagra with friends not too long ago...scary( bad weather) but fun trip. Take care😊
myviewprem thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#90
He has one more big achievement - giving daughters property from father's side(making them economically independent if they are single, widowed, divorced etc) in 16th century
Regarding America - the news channels in America has hardly any international content they do not have any exposure to other country affairs at all. Their newspapers too(except very few) are filled with only local news. They live in a bubble and have no world knowledge and exposure. India is different even kids in india know why war is happening in syria, tahir sqaure, elections in US etc and these are discussed in school and colleges during lunch breaks and at dinner with family at home. That is not case with americans. They are brought up a bit more closed kind of society(not everyone but majority).
I remember one guy in US(40 year old) told me that Iraq was invaded by US for WMD(weapons of mass destruction) were found 😕 and i had a big argument with him on that saying it was attacked because Kuwait was attacked and he was not ready to accept saying that was Asian way of thinking 😆😆. He had no clue that Iraq-saddam hussein had attacked Kuwait etc That made me wonder what sort of news was propogated by US channels.
Edited by myviewprem - 11 years ago

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