1984 Attack on Golden Temple - Page 6

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

contrary to your belief, bhinderwale was just an illiterate

when was the last time u saw a preacher types go to one of the ivies? 😆

arent they mostly all illiterate in terms of formal education? how does this come in?

sant who was anti nirankari sikh community right from the beginning. he was a religious fanatic who was not doing any good for sikh youth. he was actually brainwashing them against nirankari sikhs.

wonder why BBC, NY Times, sikh sites and wikipedia say exactly the reverse.

in late 1970s, akali dal in punjab was gaining momentum and emerging as the major political force there. akali dal was known to be anti ig since beginning. sanjay gandhi - in connivance with ig - befriended bhinderwale to divide up the akali dal so that ig's opposition could be curbed. there was no "national purpose" to this alliance. it was purely for self serving political motives.

i am not claiming national purpose. i am asserting lack of anything inconsistent with national purpose.

there was enuff evidence to nail him but she did not take him seriously. wonder what political khichdee was cooking b/w him and ig.

seems like khichdee out of a filmi script.😆

all this could have been avoided if:

1)she did not befriend and promote him to divide up HER opponent akali dal.

nothing wrong in befriending him till the point she did. he was not a threat to national unity then. that's legitimate politics.

2)she did not let him go scott free in 1982.

not up to her. if courts and police officials were up to her, she'd not have been put in jail before. again, how did she err?

hope that answers both the points u raised.😊

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

we are not talking about just anyone or any other relationship. we are talking about a relationship that set the wheels in motion for operation blue star...the debate topic. let's stay focused here😊

and it helps us in evaluating that relationship by putting it thru the prism of some common sense😉

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

prime minister of a country as big as india is not just "every one". some foresightedness is expected out of leaders.

some, yes. more and they'd be Gods. CEOs/ experts even in one's own fields cannot predict things beyond a certain point, and here u are saying she should have seen it all coming. did we see soviet disintegration? did anyone see how one day mujaheedin wld turn against the US? forget about US Presidents being stupid, did even ONE policy analyst or international affairs expert see that coming?

bhinderwaley did not become a terrorist over night. this evolution was over a period of time. what was ig doing during all that time?...any answers???

t takes a while for people to figure others out. In any case, there were no grounds for IG to have put bhindranwala behind bars. Her government in fact did, but the courts let him go. How's she at fault?

i suppose she was also in a catch-22. Sometimes people gamble that other avenues will bring someone down. She might have earlier thought that by targetting him, she might inadvertently make him a big cause. Of course, that subsequently happened, but the point is that not everyting has to have a cynical explanation.

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

i m not making any assumptions. go an check the newspapers around that time. shd tell u what was happening in punjab and who was behind it.

as far as why and how some people are exonerated in india and some convicted, the less said the better.

this guy was becoming a thorn in her side and yet she connived with the courts to let him go? is this the kind of "fact" we have to contend with here?

i'd rather not debate based on "facts" that are purported to have been reported by indian newspapers then and that you cant point to right now. what i have to go by are web sites today. most desi newspapers are in any case expressing opinions, not facts, and most are mouthpieces of various political parties. give me a credible source today.

😕. i tried keeping my posts impartial so far and even provided the motive, actions, timelines, lapses in judgment, and the end result w/o painting any side black or white.

u tried to paint them all as facts, which they are not. they remain your opinions and maybe the opinions of people we all rely on or source from one way or another. u were the one who had a problem with opinions, so i was pointing that out to u.

i just raised some valid questions. if u do not have answers to those questions, that's fine.

they've all been answered. just because they dont satisfy you or u dont get them, pls dont go saying the other person didnt have answers.

no need to go around using lines that numerous others have used for ur posts at DM before. we both know people resort to these digs when they are running out of solid counter points.

what's this? arent u making assumptions. so far, the only theme u've had is that IG shld have seen it all coming by doing the "saanp ko doodh pilana" stuff. i have answered that different ways but sorry if u dont get it.

fwiw, u were the one who asked for some information from someone here claiming that u were just a kid around that time. i provided the information with timeline and all.

i was looking for facts, not innuendos and opinions. i was looking for credible news sites to support someone's assertions that 40 gurudwaras were attacked.

no point in my typing up the same stuff all over again. i pointed out how this nexus was driven by self servong motives of ig. u can go back and read that post again.

and u can read my replies there.

CB, I still fail to see any solid proof in this post of your. opinions once again - yes. some counter-attack - oh yes. solid proof. - nope..none what so ever.

thanks for the characterization and personal assessment. Too quick on the trigger though if you see what i see.

if nothing else, then at least provide some rationale for your "national interest" theory. which national purpose did ig's alignment with bhinderwaley serve?

if i have to slam someone for their actions, i'd start by finding how it is inconsistent with national purpose first. not the other way around by trying to look for national purpose in everything they do. people do have a life. they go to the movies, do normal stuff politicians do. that's how u got ur logic reversed i think.

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

raj, i am totally unbiased here. i am neither claiming bhinderwale to be a martyr nor i'm saying blue star was wrong. all i asked about was some accountability on ig's part for the actions that build up to see something on the scale of op. blue star!!!

everything in my long blue post with timeline is fact based. i tried my level best to not get my emotions better of me here. if someone can not prove how ig's actions preceding blue star were in nation's favor.....what am i to do yaar😆😆

frankly, reading all that boy, cat, fed, scratch, anyone, everyone, u.s.a, mujahedeena, mulayam, jayalalitha stuff is getting quite entertaining now😆😆 debate key liye sab likheyngey...naheen likhengey toh bas yeh ki ig-bhinderwaley nexus desh key liye kaisey aur kahan sey achha thha😛🤣😆

btw, gtg now buddy. catch u in the evening😃

🤣🤣 never read but seeing CB's 4 responses am sure will keep ya busy... so just at bold ...Accountability for good or bad? Everyone is accountable of thier actions, but there are factors like a) actions taken based on facts or assumptions b) what is long term benefit? c) what is the risk? and what will cost? d) is valueable inputs taken from qualified (in all terms)? e) Plus / minus infact on common man f) can go on on on on factors... makes it right or wrong... yaar as far as innocent people getting pulled in all this...sad/sorry...but if on bigger scale of terrorism isn't there some scope consideration... wonder what will one choose if there is question of one innocent life VS 1000 lifes on risk...for one my salute to that one life... we all go thru sacrifices at every turns in life... there are more to add..but hope my point is understood. 😳

Originally posted by: chatbuster

what's this? arent u making assumptions. so far, the only theme u've had is that IG shld have seen it all coming by doing the "saanp ko doodh pilana" stuff. i have answered that different ways but sorry if u dont get it.

u answered it saying it was consistent with national interest. u still haven't explained how it was consistent with national interest. try explaining that consistency and i might just get it then😉

rest of the stuff u have all over the place.....anyone/everyone/no one predicting/not predicting/jyotishi...it's all too fluffy. doesn't cut in especially when the root cause of ig's actions building up to blue star were explained by me.

i was looking for facts, not innuendos and opinions. i was looking for credible news sites to support someone's assertions that 40 gurudwaras were attacked.

i am not even against this so called "attack" on golden temple. don't know where these 40 gurudwaras came from. there were no opinions or innuendos in my posts. a clear cut motive was proven behind the actions preceding the blue star.

thanks for the characterization and personal assessment. Too quick on the trigger though if you see what i see.

doesn't get any more personal than accusing the other of lifting ideas off editorials.

fyi, the net is full of either anti bhinderwaley-pro blue star or anti blue star-pro bhinderwaley stuff. my position is pro blue star-anti ig's politics and bhinderwaley. not really easy to google that position. my "opinions" were actually my recollections of reading all the neutral post-blue star analysis and what lead to it in 1984. that's what i tried presenting in one of my posts with timeline etc. can't get anymore factual than that. still far better than supporting what a siant bhinderwaley was based on what someone read on a sikh site😆

if i have to slam someone for their actions, i'd start by finding how it is inconsistent with national purpose first. not the other way around by trying to look for national purpose in everything they do.

okay, since u r evading answering how it was consistent with national purpose, let me spell out how it was inconsistent 😊

anti ig akali dal was getting stronger in punjab in 1970s. demand for a separate state was akali's main agenda. national intrest demanded putting an end to this secession movement.....now u tell me whether it is right or wrong???

did ig do what was consistent with national interest....nope. infact, she used this to her advantage.....now all this has been pointed out before but looks like the inconsistency with national interest was not clear before...so, here we go again........ig needed support after the emergency debacle and losing her stronghold and power. she used bhinderwale to divide the akali dal (instead of coming down hard on it). this resulted in some factions falling out of akali dal and starting on their own. instead of getting rid of the main problem, ig chose to create numerous smaller problems solely to support her self serving political interest and power. by the time ig came back in power in 1980, one of the factions she had befriended...bhinderwaley....had gained enuff support and was very vocal about his demand for a separate state.....bazi ulat chuki thhee....and rest is history

now, if this is not inconsistent enuff with national interest then may be u can shed some light on how it was consistent with it 😊

people do have a life. they go to the movies, do normal stuff politicians do. that's how u got ur logic reversed i think.

😆😆 care to elaborate on this. sorry, not making much sense.

this is my very first post on this thread:
[quote=Gauri_3]
whether indira gandhi was right or not - well, i feel she did not have any other option left either.

what i wonder about is why did she create that problem in the first place!!! once created, why did she let things go out of hand to such an extent next!!! these two points formed the foundation that saw operation blue star and indira's assassination later on.

now, u tell me who's right and who's wrong

[/quote]

for bolded part, u have maintained lack of foresightedness on ig's part and lack of sufficient evidence to nail bhinderwaley....😆.....chalo, tumharee baat rakh letey hain. then what???...what next???...does it absolve ig for from the reponsibility of letting things brew far too long...letting things get out of hand....i don't think so.

now, just for arguement's sake, even if we go by your position that it's not possible to predict how someone will turn out to be later.....the fact still remains that blue star was a sum total of ig's numerous actions/decisions/lack of foresightedness..whether known (which i believe was the case) or unknown (as claimed by you since she is, after all, a mere human being like u and i who goes to movies and what not😆). going by your opinion, she did not know he'll turn out to be a terrorist( 😆yeah, awright). still, tumharey nazariye sey dekha jaye toh, unknowingly hee sahee, per kiya dhara toh sab uss ka hee thha na😛

unfortunately, she happened to be the prime minister of india and at this level of leadership...maloom naheen thha aagey jaa ker yeh aisey rang badleyga.....mainey toh issey seedha samjha thha....arrey, hum kya brahma ji ki toondi mein sey nikaley hain kya jo anataryami ho jayen.......zalim kitna dhokeybaaz nikla......hamey kya pata thha itnee jaldi yeh itnaa taakatwar ho jayega....these sorry ass excuses don't cut much😉...irrespective of the fact that even presidents or prime ministers are also human beings like u and i who have a life and .....go to movies😕😆

😆😆

Originally posted by: raj5000

🤣🤣 never read but seeing CB's 4 responses am sure will keep ya busy...

yeah, it did keep me busy😆 but it is always such a pleasure debating with him. bahut seekhna milta hai......at least debating style key barey mein...and i mean it😊

so just at bold ...Accountability for good or bad? Everyone is accountable of thier actions, but there are factors like a) actions taken based on facts or assumptions b) what is long term benefit? c) what is the risk? and what will cost? d) is valueable inputs taken from qualified (in all terms)?

exactly raj. we see a common man weighing all pros and cons while making soem important decisions like buying a house or changing a job that impacts only him. decisions leaders take/make impact not only them and their party but the whole entire nation..and at times, the world. therefore, expecting foresightedness and a sense or responsibility from one's leaders is justified.

when ur decisions affct/alter so many lives, u can't afford to be recklessly selfish about them.

e) Plus / minus infact on common man f) can go on on on on factors... makes it right or wrong... yaar as far as innocent people getting pulled in all this...sad/sorry...but if on bigger scale of terrorism isn't there some scope consideration...

i still applaud her for making that call on operation blue star. i thik it takes some guts to do that but i fail to see how it makes her a hero keeping in mind that she was the one who put the ball rolling in the first place. this is all i am saying here😆 bas, baat itnee see😆

wonder what will one choose if there is question of one innocent life VS 1000 lifes on risk...for one my salute to that one life... we all go thru sacrifices at every turns in life... there are more to add..but hope my point is understood. 😳

😆😆😆 actually no😆 hope u r not a fence sitter here buddy. before u take a solid position, let me reiterate - i was never against blue star. bas zurrat kee thhee ig kee rajneeti/kootneeti/chaalbazi per tippanee karney kee.....rest, as they say, is history here. inn aath pannon mein dafan😉😆

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

u answered it saying it was consistent with national interest. u still haven't explained how it was consistent with national interest. try explaining that consistency and i might just get it then😉

again, when with clear hindsight we feel that someone had an error of judgment, i want to see at least if their action was inconsistent with national goals. i am not looking for national goals when they are out seeing a movie. clear now? 😛

rest of the stuff u have all over the place.....anyone/everyone/no one predicting/not predicting/jyotishi...it's all too fluffy. doesn't cut in especially when the root cause of ig's actions building up to blue star were explained by me.

it cut it for the person who wrote about the "amazing world". sorry if it doesnt cut it for u. 😛

i am not even against this so called "attack" on golden temple. don't know where these 40 gurudwaras came from.

from the same post that talked about someone being a kid at that time. somehow you picked that up, but not the 40 gurudwaras?

there were no opinions or innuendos in my posts. a clear cut motive was proven behind the actions preceding the blue star.

thanks for the characterization and personal assessment. Too quick on the trigger though if you see what i see.

doesn't get any more personal than accusing the other of lifting ideas off editorials.

whatever.

fyi, the net is full of either anti bhinderwaley-pro blue star or anti blue star-pro bhinderwaley stuff. my position is pro blue star-anti ig's politics and bhinderwaley. not really easy to google that position. my "opinions" were actually my recollections of reading all the neutral post-blue star analysis and what lead to it in 1984. that's what i tried presenting in one of my posts with timeline etc. can't get anymore factual than that. still far better than supporting what a siant bhinderwaley was based on what someone read on a sikh site😆

good for you.😊

if i have to slam someone for their actions, i'd start by finding how it is inconsistent with national purpose first. not the other way around by trying to look for national purpose in everything they do.

okay, since u r evading answering how it was consistent with national purpose, let me spell out how it was inconsistent 😊

again, how if you stop characterizing other people's responses based on your undertanding of them? because it has been answered.

anti ig akali dal was getting stronger in punjab in 1970s. demand for a separate state was akali's main agenda. national intrest demanded putting an end to this secession movement.....now u tell me whether it is right or wrong???

did ig do what was consistent with national interest....nope. infact, she used this to her advantage.....now all this has been pointed out before but looks like the inconsistency with national interest was not clear before...so, here we go again........ig needed support after the emergency debacle and losing her stronghold and power. she used bhinderwale to divide the akali dal (instead of coming down hard on it).

when someone does not have unassailable majority in parliament, what can she do but weaken the opponent. how was that against national interest? in any case, she was out of power for some of the period u are talking about, so what do u mean by "come down hard"?

this resulted in some factions falling out of akali dal and starting on their own. instead of getting rid of the main problem, ig chose to create numerous smaller problems solely to support her self serving political interest and power.

and she managed to do all this while she was in jail? arent u trying to palm off all this as irrefutable fact now?

by the time ig came back in power in 1980, one of the factions she had befriended...bhinderwaley....had gained enuff support and was very vocal about his demand for a separate state.....bazi ulat chuki thhee....and rest is history

now, if this is not inconsistent enuff with national interest then may be u can shed some light on how it was consistent with it 😊

people do have a life. they go to the movies, do normal stuff politicians do. that's how u got ur logic reversed i think.

😆😆 care to elaborate on this. sorry, not making much sense.

yes, means i wldnt go looking for national purpose in everything someone does, as u were earlier trying to do.

would like to hear other views actually. by now i think we know where we are coming from. you from the 100% forecastability perspective, me from another. so unless there's some dramatic new development, count me out.😊