Idealism Vs Realism

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 11 years ago

#11

Originally posted by: K.Universe.
RTH, Vinzy amd KA: you guys misunderstood :)

Topic is ontological in nature in the sense it concerns itself with phenomenalism.

I can jump in but I am afraid soon I will be the only one left talking.

Ties in with idealism I suppose.

Maybe then you and Genie can at least further explain what the topic is about, so we can post something more relevant.

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charminggenie

@charminggenie

Stunner

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#12

Well , I would try to present broad points covering this topic. Ontology as we know it, is a part of metaphysics which presents a philosophical view about existence, being, becoming or reality.

Idealism and Realism are two arguments put forward for understanding the human life.

Idealism believes that our sense of physical reality is a mental construct.Believing that mind exists and knowledge is a by-product of mind .It says life experiences are due to sensory abilities of a human mind and not because the physical reality exists in itself, as an independent entity. Hence we cannot know the existence of things beyond realm of intellect. If I can quote George Berkeley correctly here, he was of the idea that material world exists because the mind perceives it and the things which are not conformed by the framework of mind , cannot be real.It also claims about the nature or composition of reality as whole: there is nothing in reality other than ideas and the minds whose ideas they are. Hence idealism is a form of monism, which is opposed both to other forms of monism (e.g., materialism) and to pluralism

Realism states that physical reality exists independent of human mind and its perception , and is not dependent on human mind to define its boundaries. First Plato and then his student Aristotle. who carried forward his study were major supporter for this theory , he said that ideas can free float without having matter whereas matter cannot exist without some semblance of form and thus this form is independent of mental faculties.

Idealism is free to explore metaphysical concepts without the detriments of practicality while Realism takes in to the account the human conditioning.

Phew, hope I made some sense of this complex topic , see which theory appeals to you more and we shall try to have an interesting conversation regarding it.

Edited by charminggenie - 11 years ago

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@K.Universe.

Voyager

Posted: 11 years ago

#13

Originally posted by: charminggenie

I had an idea ,you would probably get what I was trying to ask. Well , perhaps you could give the right direction to this topic and we will see how we can make this a two way process

Thanks for the vote of confidence :))

OK, so here goes. It is easy to pick realism and argue against idealism so what i would like to do is "assign" idealism to you and ask you to prove why you think an iPad exists solely as a mental construct; then we will take it from there. Deal?

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charminggenie

@charminggenie

Stunner

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#14

Ah since I am "assigned" Idealism ,I would take the task , but please excuse my limiting knowledge and inability to do full justice to the theory.

As Idealism states that physical reality is a mental construct, whatever we are perceiving including that neat ipad lying before me, is an illusion. It is a reflection of my ideas and knowledge. Now to support it , i would recall whatever little quantum mechanics I know ,will use Einstein's argument to say that space and time, the cornerstones of reality, are in themselves just two aspects of a more fundamental spacetime continuum, i.e. they too are created through act of perception and so belong to the world of experiences. They set the framework where we envisage out realities. Hence even an Ipad seems real because of this framework which projects my idea/energy into this illusion. It seems real because of my surety in the independence of space and time.

I think Einstein's theory of relativity bounds matter and energy into it ,which shows that matter doesn't exist in real word. Atomic Physics and Bohr also showed that solid matter didn't exist, rather it is our experience , idea which generates the reality of solid substance , such as Ipad.

So I see ipad because I perceive it , if say I shut my eyes , it still continues to exist because someone else might have also perceived it. Our existence might be someone else's perception. And that, someone else, is what we refer as the absolute.

Ah won't be bad idea to mention the book which first referenced the idea of illusion or "Maya" , quoting Geeta -

"prakrityaiva cha karmani

kriyamanani sarvasah

yah pasyati tathatmanam

akartaram sa pasyati"

"Krishna : One who can see that all activities are performed by the nature (Maya) alone and sees that the self does nothing, actually sees." (The Self is the silent witness).

Idealism basically says everything finite or infinite like time , space are illusions of the absolute.

I doubt, Idealism would be happy to have this shaky confusing argument for establishing its relevance, but well, I tried.

Edited by charminggenie - 11 years ago

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charminggenie

@charminggenie

Stunner

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#15

The term basically referred to the theory that only mind exists is known as Solipsism, how does that expand from idealism has to do a lot with our opinion regarding "consciousness".

Edited by charminggenie - 11 years ago

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@K.Universe.

Voyager

Posted: 11 years ago

#16

Well, you will get a 2/10 for your paper. 1 point for accepting the challenge and 1 point for remaining humble. 😆

Just kidding!

On topic, let's see. Epistemology is the theory of knowledge. According to epistemological idealism, what one knows about an object exists only in one's mind.

Yet, if you take an object such as an iPad, other than from a human interface point of view, you are not likely to know how a PMU dialog semiconductor works or how an ambient light sensor works, or how a signal multiplexor works or how a booster converter works, or how they all come together to provide you with an experience.

Question then becomes, who filled the gaps in your knowledge, from an idealism standpoint?

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charminggenie

@charminggenie

Stunner

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#17

Originally posted by: K.Universe.
Well, you will get a 2/10 for your paper. 1 point for accepting the challenge and 1 point for remaining humble. 😆
Phew, would take anything for the paper I submitted. 😆 Though deserved a point extra for all the referencing.

Just kidding!

On topic, let's see. Epistemology is the theory of knowledge. According to epistemological idealism, what one knows about an object exists only in one's mind.

Yet, if you take an object such as an iPad, other than from a human interface point of view, you are not likely to know how a PMU dialog semiconductor works or how an ambient light sensor works, or how a signal multiplexor works or how a booster converter works, or how they all come together to provide you with an experience.

Question then becomes, who filled the gaps in your knowledge, from an idealism standpoint?

@Bold - But would a layman who is unaware of the technicalities of the Ipad think about the experience of the device unless he has some intrinsic knowledge about it. Won't he rely on other's perception or knowledge to draw his inference.

Like I said Ipad can be a mental construct of multiple brains all conjuring different perceptions or like they say, different forms of perception which would be based on our desire to view the perception according to our knowledge. I might enjoy Ipad for reading, networking etc that would reflect from my knowledge while another more technically aware would watch its configuration and savour the experience it would point. His perception would be based on his knowledge.

The gaps would be filled by these different points of perceptions, the brain would gain from the perception of another and fill the knowledge it lacked previously. Reflecting illusions, because the way Idealism says even we are not real, so if we are able to see and interact with each other than it is based on our converging illusions and perceptions.

Considering how badly I did last time, don't have much hope with this reasoning, but well I am very persistent student. 😊

Edited by charminggenie - 11 years ago

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@K.Universe.

Voyager

Posted: 11 years ago

#18

Genie, as you know, there are different versions and different forms of idealism. Would you like to "champion" an existing version or would you like to come up with something that is completely your own?

For instance, when you say multiple brains, you are knowingly/unknowingly veering into philosophical pluralism?

So, first and foremost, do you think reality is independent of the mind or dependent on the mind, as in do objects have a standing independent of the mind(s) perceiving them or have no standing independent of the mind(s) perceiving them?

Second, and more importantly, what is the nature of this mind (or these minds)? Is it (are they) causally dependent on physical/chemical/biological processes?

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Believe

@-Believe-

Stunner

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#19

^...Mr. K, I like your Deep analysis...👍🏼

😃

Edited by Vinzy - 11 years ago

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Summer3

@Summer3

Trailblazer

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#20

Interesting topic.

From what I read, it seems one is spiritual and the other materialistic.:

Idealism believes in what is beyond the senses, the spiritual and mental world and a search for Truth, Beauty and Justice. It seems to be a search of perfection. A philosophical approach based on the tenet that there is one reality which is worth knowing.

Emphasis of studying is on reasoning and concepts with a Teacher to guide.

Quote: "Plato also believed that the soul is fully formed prior to birth and is perfect and at one with the Universal Being. The birth process checks this perfection, so education requires bringing latent ideas (fully formed concepts) to consciousness."

In Realism basically one believes in the objective world which the senses can cognize. Rational thinking and analysis is the purpose of human kind, expounded by Aristotle.

It speaks of systematic study and application of knowledge to understand, basically experimental learning.

Quote: "Reality exists independent of the human mind. The ultimate reality is the world of physical objects. "

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/ed416/PP2.html

The other two school of thoughts are Pragmatism and Existentialism.