Arvind Kejriwal and AAP - Page 7

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return_to_hades thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#61

@Krystal and Genie

I accept that AAP may have acted with all good intentions to serve the people. However, it seems that AAP is arbitrarily defining who is the Aam Aadmi. In my opinion majority of the police force is also an Aam Aadmi. They aren't the lawmakers or people in power. They are the law keepers, answerable to people in power.

The law minister conducted illegal raids, which I'll grant may have been done with good intentions. But then he wanted suspension of officers who didn't comply with him. The AAP immediately assumed the cops did so to protect criminals. Could it possibly be that the cops were just hesitant to wholeheartedly comply with a raid that was illegal? Perhaps the cops were dirty. But perhaps it is possible they were just following the rules of law. Perhaps they have been covering up crime. But perhaps lack of evidence or pressure from higher officials is preventing them from taking action. The cops who were taken on the raids may not even be the cops who received the complaints and had the burden of investigation.

As a common government employee, I think cops should have right to their daily livelihood. I think they also deserve innocent until proven guilty. If they are to be suspended or fired, it should be after proper investigation that proves they did something wrong. Instead the AAP holds a dharna demanding immediate suspension without waiting for investigation. How is that any different from any other party that expects all govt. employees to toss the rulebook out and dance to their tunes? How is that different from any other party that doesn't give a damn about the rights of aam admi employees?

@Angie

There is indeed a major conflict of interests in who gets to control the police force in Delhi. I can see both the CM and the Union have valid reasons for retaining control. I hope that for the good of the people, eventually a compromise can be reached. I was researching the law and order in District of Columbia which is slightly similar. It is a federal district and not a complete state. Looks like there are dual systems there - the US Marshalls directly under command of the president and metropolitan police department under command of the Mayor of DC. Perhaps Delhi can have similar dual layered systems.

Rehanism thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#62
Apparently AAP and its brand of simpletons take the term 'Public Servant' quite literally. As per them if you are a 'Public Servant', you are answerable directly to the Janta and you must act as per their orders and diktats and if you refuse you are automatically corrupt and inept.


punk666 thumbnail
Posted: 11 years ago
#63
The latest dharna might have begain the downfall of aap. Not sure how long people will keep their trust in them.
heeheehee thumbnail
Posted: 11 years ago
#64

An interesting article by a rtrd. IAS officer..
hillpost.in/2014/01/kejriwals-delhi-dharna-this-is-not-anarchy-mr-home-minister-this-is-revolution/97741/
Edited by heeheehee - 11 years ago
Sanaya-hi-Rani thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#65

Originally posted by: Rehanism

Apparently AAP and its brand of simpletons take the term 'Public Servant' quite literally. As per them if you are a 'Public Servant', you are answerable directly to the Janta and you must act as per their orders and diktats and if you refuse you are automatically corrupt and inept.


That is not the problem but the problem is how do you define the "aam aadmi"..OR how do you take instructions from them, the only plausible method is voting which is the spirit of democracy but what about these issues..you cant have referendums taking place here!

Secondly the vision of the "Aam aadmi" through panchayati raj/ gram sabha etc is not effective simply because the representation of aam aadmi by these instituitions is frequently questioned and it is seen that they resort to moral policing and political opportunism way too often!

And the most important conflict is "the majority isnt always right" issue! So when laws contrast with majority opinion what is expected to happen?😕
charminggenie thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#66
@Hades
Agreed policeman are equally Aaam Admi , but unfortunately due to varied reasons especially in Delhi they do tend to control the law. Right from the lowest levels who can be found asking "hatwas" and making money out of illegal construction, there are many ways where this " Aam Admi" has found a way to wield power. The corruption rate in Delhi Police is exceptionally high. That is due to the fact that they don't come under state govt , so a policeman ( at any level) in Delhi is more powerful compared to its counterpart in other states. Keyword - majority.

The reason why the raids were conducted was because for years now the residents were trying to reach police about the developing racket in their locality. No FIR was filed or even an investigation was carried out. http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=3877000&TPN=9

To your point of suspension asked by the law minister - 3 cops with very different cases. I will take this raid wala Cop , because for other two there are enough proof for charges of corruption. Lets assume he was corrupt or even inefficient enough to not report a complaint stated by a local. Now if he is am Aam admi and his job is to be evaluated like other govt employees, he would be found lacking . So don't you think his supposedly employer has a right to pull him aside and investigate his performance, especially in a profession where its a matter of life and death .

In any way it is provided in the Indian Constitution that for any investigation in any case, the concerned person is to be removed or suspended ( salaries continued per discretion) . So was the Law Minister wrong in asking for suspension of a police-officer against whom he has received complaints?

Now to balance out, the technicality of that very night does way in policeman's favor but that doesn't exempt him from a suspension. We need to see the reason - was it about that particular night's conduct or about months of non-performance?

If the recent figures are to be believed 77% of corruption charges in Delhi feature policemen. And it is not just a upper crust problem.

I wonder what is the role of law minister in Delhi , if he doesn't have the power to instruct his police force to act on a complaint ( this is independent of present case) and question them. Why are we ready to believe that the said Minister is exerting his power and is corrupt because he has asked a cop to report about his pending cases or complaints? This goes both ways, even that Minister at the end of it all is an Aam Admi, a govt employee. He too gets a salary. Or have we become so cynical that we assume them to be corrupt in everyway?

I understand the charges of unfair suspensions like in April 2013 when Shinde suspended few policemen when few activists stoned his place. Why was this not protested? What was the fault of that man in uniform.
You asked for difference here it is , not defending the Law Minister's actions or hysteria but the intent was far better than what National Parties go for. Suspension for poor performance vs sheer power abuse.

See the cop was technically right because of the rulebook, the very same which states that in case of any investigation the officer should be suspended until the innocent is proven guilty. Then why was this rule thrown out of the window.

I agree with your dual system. Delhi has a huge population , you do need a layer of law forces which are strictly for the law and order. We can MArshals under Union for National security purposes



charminggenie thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#67
@Mr A - Vote share is always so confusing , well atleast for me. Lets talk about the numbers. I feel anything around 200 for BJP would be a good position. It has Shiv Sena, maybe AIADMK, Akalis , Chandra Babu, maybe even BJD. They can sail through the vote of thanks easily and without needing MAmta or anyone else.
Doubt SP will get many seats , BSP might - gain few. CPI/CPM ( West Bengal, Kerela )- 40 odd number.

@ I am amused when people take AAP too seriously , they never had and never will make national level impact in this election atleast. People criticize them too much when they have no religious/minority based core ideology. IF we can tolerate SP/BSP/DMK crap then why are we so willing to write off this regional party who clearly doesn't have a substantial vote bank outside cities in North India. Cong is only hoping that the seats it will loose in North India don't fall to BJP hence the AAP over exposure on National channels. BJP should be happy that they are further cutting down Cong vote bank?


return_to_hades thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#68

@Genie

I know that police officers are corrupt. There are many ordinary employees in government posts that do harass other ordinary people demanding bribes for processing simple paperwork. Police officers are even known to harass innocent civilians threatening arrest/legal action if bribes are not paid. There are various reasons for this systematic corruption in many levels. While corruption should be investigated, punished and eradicated, I maintain that the employee is still an ordinary person whose rights and privileges must be protected.

I agree that cops should be held accountable for their duties. If there are reasonable and serious doubts on a cops integrity there should be thorough investigation. Unfortunately, AAP didn't conduct themselves in the right manner. They demanded retribution for failure of cops to comply with the law ministers illegal raid. It came off as stubborn and petulant retaliation rather than a sincere effort to punish corruption in the force.

I was unaware that the constitution demanded suspension of those under investigation. Seems counter intuitive to innocent until proven guilty. Strips protection in case of false charges. If that is the law though, it should be followed. However, the investigation should be over reasonable doubts over integrity not failure to comply with the whims of a law minister.

Refusal to comply with an illegal raid should never have been the trigger to seek action. The proper thing to do would have been to present reasonable doubt and demand suspension pending investigation. AAP's intent indeed maybe more noble and genuine. Their actions maybe solely to target corruption. But ends don't justify the means. Political bullying is political bullying no matter which party does it for whatever reason. If AAP wants to preserve credibility and goodwill they should end these risqu measures that come off as stubbornness, anarchism and bullying.

It is wrong whenever a person in power suspends people on their whims. People should have objected to Shinde's suspensions too. But just because Shinde wasn't protested doesn't mean people should keep mum now. People probably didn't expect integrity from him, but they do from AAP because AAP promised integrity.

I'm not saying throw the rulebook. But have everyone adhere to the rulebook civilians, cops, politicians and even AAP.

charminggenie thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#69
And this is why I have been saying all through- Law Minister was wrong in his approach and his vigilante role not intent. AK should have fired him or suspended him before demanding control over police and the suspension of cops.
I don't think there is any harm in a well intentional suspension , they are only done when a compliant is filed and on prima facie if there is evidence supporting it. The accused is not punished/detained/strip searched/ humiliated , he is in most cases sent on a paid leave/transfer of department till his reports are checked and a decision is not taken on his case. On many cases a police officer is removed from a case , if evidence emerges that he may have some personal interests in it. Right now too, the talked about policemen are sent on a paid holiday which they were already due while charges against them are investigated. Earlier Home Ministry denied that even. Keeping aside the raid case what about the two other cases where there were enough proof against the cops.

I can understand people's expectations towards AAP but I feel most are being on an emotional rollar-coaster and not understanding the political dynamics. AK would have earned way more supporters if he had pulled his Minister out for the wrong approach , he didn't and there lies his foil. Be real with AAP , not too idealist or too hopeful that they can form the central govt or change governance overnight.

They were dharna conducting activists far too long and they would need some time before they get a hang of administration etiquette. Don't judge a party during the build-up phase of LS polls, especially a one which was not even on the table couple of months back, currently there are lot many survival strategies at play which might backfire on AAP like this one. So give them the benefit of error and learn.
return_to_hades thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#70

@Genie

My biggest skepticism of the AAP was their ability to legislate. The party is made up of many accomplished intelligent people. They are great social activists and campaigners. However, the question remains - can good activists make capable legislators?

I don't expect AAP to make any big dents or changes. I don't expect them to change Delhi overnight. I am impressed at some of the few things they accomplished like curbing the tanker mafia. I didn't expect them to do it as soon as they did. My actual expectations are simple. Simply be a party of integrity and focus on governing. Think before acting and speaking. Most importantly don't do anything of questionable legality no matter what the rationale. It is high time they stopped acting like activists and became good legislators. It is natural for people to be disheartened of the party just keeps doing tamasha.

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