There's an app for that.. feminism - Page 3

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boreddamsel thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#21
Thanks for the post, Arti.

Here is why I think women never get equality.. 'coz its a chicken and egg problem. Men think women get special treatment and have an issue with it.. which makes them treat them with bias. But you need to fight for women and ask for special treatment, because other wise we will never become at par with men.

You are right there is a lot of literature out there.. but sometimes it gets on my nerves. Look at the discussion about the Yahoo CEO Marissa Meyer's decision to ban WFH .. the news reported that this would affect women.. why? Men aren't parents.. they don't want to stay at home with their kids?

Sometimes feminists focus so much on women, that men might get pissed off.. and that's why they frown at the term feminism. Somewhere down the road, something went wrong ..

Anyways I haven't checked if there is literature about it out there, but this is something I have seen.. given I have been involved in lots of initiatives to improve conditions of women scientists and engineers and encourage young girls to join the field. I have so many more examples I could share, but of course feminism itself is a different debate!

You brought up the issue about women's pay.. I heard recently that one of the major reasons for this is because women never negotiate like men do.. we aren't aggressive enough!
Edited by boreddamsel - 12 years ago
moomin4455 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#22
I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in: I applaud the intentions behind the feminism, but loathe feminists who denigrate men and believe this is a means to address gender equality. I think it's because of these 'extreme few' that feminism has the bad reputation it has, particularly among men.

In an ideal world women, or anyone frankly, wouldn't have to fight for equal rights and respect - there would be an inherent understanding that this is the case without words having to be spoken. Alas, the world is not like that...I agree with you -arti-, that until we have a world where there is gender equality, we will have to fight for that equality.
Edited by moomin4455 - 12 years ago
CuckooCutter7 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#23

Originally posted by: moomin4455

I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in: I applaud the intentions behind the feminism, but loathe feminists who denigrate men and believe this is a means to address gender equality. I think it's because of these 'extreme few' that feminism has the bad reputation it has, particularly among men.


In an ideal world women, or anyone frankly, wouldn't have to fight for equal rights and respect - there would be an inherent understanding that this is the case without words having to be spoken. Alas, the world is not like that...I agree with you -arti-, that until we have a world where there is gender equality, we will have to fight for that equality.


ok but i don't get something. How are the two genders equal? Can the man get pregnant? Can he model for Victoria's Secret? Would he look as good in high heels?😆 I also think women deserve more respect than men, so all this talk about equal rights also doesn't seem right. They can open beer for the guy, they can tell time just looking at a watch in the oven, there are just so many things they can do that guys cannot.😆

my point is the two genders are as different as male and female, and we should celebrate those differences. It would be a boring world if women were like men and vice versa. I for one wouldn;t know what to do with another man curled up on a sofa😆.
Edited by BirdieNumNum - 12 years ago
boreddamsel thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#24
@Birdie.. I think Moomin was referring to equal rights.
Women definitely deserve respect yes.. but I don't know if woman want more respect than men! The society could start with giving women the same respect as men.
Anyways my two cents. I am sure there are men and women who disagree! 😊
CuckooCutter7 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#25

Originally posted by: boreddamsel

@Birdie.. I think Moomin was referring to equal rights.

Women definitely deserve respect yes.. but I don't know if woman want more respect than men! The society could start with giving women the same respect as men.
Anyways my two cents. I am sure there are men and women who disagree! 😊

i disagree.😆 I think women should be given more respect than men.😊
men maybe excel at one or two things, women excel at a lot of things. Now dont ask me what.😆
and Moomin always makes brilliant points, as do you. My kind of points.😊
Edited by BirdieNumNum - 12 years ago
LovelyPlanet thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#26

Originally posted by: .Baazigar.

1.Men and women natural instinct, natural preference, nature, behavior, emotion are different feminism does not mean one have to change it or demanding equality in this . I think feminism is a demand of treating and existence of life of half of human just like another half . Anyone can say all are equal for just to make the mind happy that does not mean all treated equally in society , they are pitted against the thinking process of thousands year of society.


Hum ko maloom hai jannat ki haqeeqat lekin,
Dil ko behlane ko Ghalib ye khayal achha hai.



@bold love that sher 😊
on the feminism there are women who have had more power than men in the past and present.. Cleopetra, Queen of England.. in our own country Sonia Gandhi is more powerful than anyone else. You will find such examples at all levels not just at the top.
Its really upto individuals ..who ever is fiercer gets more of everything.. personally i'm more powerful than my peers.
LovelyPlanet thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#27

Originally posted by: .Baazigar.


1.I think those are individual achievement and family lineage like queen , cleopetra, soina gandhi those are nothing to do women as whole. Yes it looks like there is equality in power or women are in better power position in a democracy but if we look in aisa region like khalida zia, sheik Hasina of Bangladesh, Benazir Bhutto of pakistan or Sonia Gandhi of India they have lineage with certain family. In surface it look like society treat equally women when the issue of power but in ground reality it hardly there is a power participation. Few individual success does not reflect the society as a whole.
But then even men at these positions dont come without lineage. Scindia family, Gandhis, Bhuttos and so on. Bollywood is same, both men and women need contacts and backgrounds to get first breaks. I dont like when supporters of feminists ignore such basic points in an attemp to focus on the welfare of one sex. We want both sexes to be equal, dont we?
Men and Women excel in all fields. If someone is intelligent he/she will excel in life no matter what opportunities they receive and regardless of their gender.
I know so many women who did not get opportunity to get right education(lack of guidance or lack of finance or general backwardness in mindsets), but eventually they excelled and are able to outperform all those who had those opportunities.

2.The truth is when we see Sonia Gandhi as ultimate decider then simultaneously there were hardly any representation of women in indian parliament. Out of 543 hardly 44 were women MP that too many have family lineage only 10% representation with almost 50% population. Most of them is trough their family lineage and many also there who are through individual struggle and capacity. The positive point is they are better administer and taking responsibility of their position then many politician. As a patriarchy society they hardly get any chance , they are successful wherever they get any chance or through their individual capacity .
Politics is something not many women choose as career for now, there aren't many women politians in the west either. But the ones who do enter politics they never stop in the middle, all the time they reach the top(we have all the examples). Pretty sure more and more women will join politics in the future and then probably people will be worried about not having enough representation from men 😆
Generally we should not undermine any gender..


moomin4455 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#28

Originally posted by: BirdieNumNum


ok but i don't get something. How are the two genders equal? Can the man get pregnant?

The day this happens I will celebrate and laugh! 😆

Can he model for Victoria's Secret?

No but he can model for Abercrombie and Fitch...😆 ' Washboard abs...le sigh...

Would he look as good in high heels?😆

OK...maybe we should draw a line under the bad visuals.. 😆

I also think women deserve more respect than men, so all this talk about equal rights also doesn't seem right. They can open beer for the guy, they can tell time just looking at a watch in the oven, there are just so many things they can do that guys cannot.😆

my point is the two genders are as different as male and female, and we should celebrate those differences. It would be a boring world if women were like men and vice versa. I for one wouldn't know what to do with another man curled up on a sofa😆.


Jokes aside, you make a good point though. People think equality is 'anything you can do I can do better', but not necessarily. We should applaud the strengths of both sexes and accept that we often excel at different things- no harm in that! Neither gender deserves the greater respect: we are all borne from woman, but we couldn't come into being without man; both women and men are awesome - the day everyone accepts this the world will be a better place for us all!
--arti-- thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#29
There's a really common misconception out there that feminism contends that men and women are the same. Far from it.

Feminism actually helps us see the ways in which men and women have totally different social experiences and pressures. Equality doesn't mean sameness. And then that's further complicated by race, class, and so on. Feminism is about recognizing all those differences.

Equality just means that all genders from any race/class should have access to meaningful opportunities and rights. That includes having a voice and the ability to have some control over your own choices. We might make very different choices, and that's okay too. For example - women should not be penalized in their careers because of their reproductive choices. Hence, maternity leave and measures to help even the playing field. Not that that really evens it out for women in precarious jobs who might not have access to maternity leave. There are still employers who fire a woman for getting pregnant. Or it's more subtle - someone who focuses on her reproductive choices is seen as too "weak." You are asked to be "tough," like the Yahoo CEO who came back to work 2 weeks after child delivery. I mean, that's just not possible for most women, especially if you don't have all the resources that that CEO must've had.

So what does equality look like?
- if there was no "glass ceiling" for qualified and skilled women who want to become the best in their fields/careers
- if women made the same amount of money as their male counterparts (in terms of skill, position, experience, etc.)
- if girls were as encouraged as boys to develop a range of skills and to achieve their dreams
- if legislative equality actually translated to social equality - if women didn't have to worry about being raped, assaulted within their "safe" domestic spaces, or within any public place
- etc.

Those are all things that have to do with equality, and those are all things feminists fight for.

In fact, recognizing our differences is a really important feature of feminist thought. For example, the experience of white women is very different from women of colour, or muslim women of colour who wear hijab, for example, in a post 9-11 context. All women's choices are not treated as equal. A white Christian woman can wear a cross, and that's seen as acceptable, but a Muslim woman wearing a hijab faces different forms of discrimination (from the state - in countries where women wearing hijab or niqab can be denied public services, for example -- and also from self-proclaimed feminists who think those who wear hijab are somehow automatically oppressed).

A related point is that there is a great deal of diversity in feminist thought. There are those who claim to be anti-abortion feminists. I don't really get that myself and I certainly would find myself having radically different perspectives.

For example a lot of first wave feminists were really anti-sex in some ways, and felt that sexual things necessarily denigrated women. Feminists who came after that argued against that and wanted more radical inclusiveness for women's sexual choices.

Progressive feminists have debates all the time about what "choice" looks like for women in a world with concentrated power exercised by a small few - or the 1% to put it in occupy terms. So feminism actually necessitates a debate on class.

Personally speaking, it's not enough for me to just talk about gender if we can't talk about class, race, sexual orientation and all the other differences that affect our experience in the world. So in some ways as a woman of colour I might have more in common with a queer man of colour than I would with a white woman. Our intersecting identities are taken seriously by feminists, so there is no call to flatten those complexities and view the world in black and white.

I think to have a fair assessment of what kind of contributions feminists have made, we need to be able to cast aside simplistic stereotypes about what feminism/feminists are about. Feminists are real people with family members and allies, who might even include straight white guys. Anyone with a gender/power analysis can be a feminist. Sometimes on IF I feel people have this picture of a 70s hindi film "socialite" lady in pearls who hates men, when they think about a feminist.

Feminism isn't about hating men, nor is it about prescribing one ideal way of life for all women. Those things are antithetical to the notion of freedom and self-determination that animate feminism at a very core level.

Edited by --arti-- - 12 years ago
--arti-- thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#30
Also-
Moomin, I know you said this, but I'm really not trying to single out your response. What you said is actually something people commonly say when feminism is raised, so don't take this personally.

Every time feminism is talked about, even those who agree that feminism can be valid, feel like they need to qualify their position with a "but." It's really interesting to me that people feel the need to do that.

I agree with x, y, z, but I'm not one of those.. you know, crazy man haters.

Why is this such a common response? Something worth thinking about. I don't get why people feel the need to announce that there may be some "man haters" who identify as feminists. The stereotype comes out first and almost overtakes the substance. This may not be the best example, but we don't say, "he's a Chinese guy and I'm cool with that, but hopefully he's not one of those types who are bad drivers."

That kind of puts the onus on every feminist to first prove he/she don't hate men before she can have any kind of discussion. It's frankly tiring and kind of insulting. Nobody should have to repeatedly prove they are not anti-men before their views are taken seriously.

Also, I've noticed lately in some of my circles that if a guy declares he's a feminist, people somehow seem more receptive to it than if a woman declares herself a feminist. There's this reluctance, and sometimes even anger, towards women who actually are just comfortable identifying as feminist. It's fascinating.

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