If GOD exists then... - Page 29

whoa......dm is really becoming the spiritual mansion ...

Originally posted by: karandel_2008

Free Will: What if God just lets us choose the path, but overall consequence is same, that is known by God? There could be many paths to attain a particular result.

If person A wont do something then B will do it anyway. God doesn't distinguish much between A or B, but just distinguishes them by the path they choose. A path is like a duty.

God is impersonal as well as personal it seems; frankly very hard to pin him down as he seems stationary and yet he keeps moving, so only way is to make God come to you.

Originally posted by: Mister.K.

Let's say God knows everything (omniscient)

On Apr 1st, at 10 AM Pacific Time, let's say I am going to stab you (take it easy, just a supposition)

God knows that on on Apr 1st at 10 AM Pacific time, Mr. K is going to stab Karan.

Now, if I don't stab you, that means God doesn't know everything which means he is NOT omniscient.

If I stab you on the said date and at the said time, then I am supposed to have stabbed you because God knows it already and I can't do anything else but stab you otherwise I would be proving God wrong. In other words, on Apr 1st at 10 AM Pacific Time, between you and me, only one action is possible and no other action is possible. That action is a stab from me to you.

Lets start to analyze the above case and see what restrictions can be found. Below I diverge the case a bit to start converging in later posts. First of all here are some definitions:

Omniscience: one having total knowledge, having infinite (or close to) knowledge of understanding.

Free will: the apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined.

Knowledge: the facts, feelings or experiences known by a person or group of people, the state of knowing, awareness, consciousness, or familiarity gained by experience or learning

One may argue that one that has not happened is not part of knowledge and hence doesn't count, but for the moment lets take future into account too. In the above example lets talk about A is going to kill B on Apr 1st at 10 AM Pacific Time.

We should also differentiate between action (doing something) and consequence (logical conclusion). It is possible that person A already made some choices in the past which affected person B. Person B also made some choices in the past that brought him in contact with person A, in the first place.

So we should consider which choices independently that are solely responsible to the consequence on Apr 1st at 10AM Pacific? If we start connecting all the choices then I am afraid that we may or may not go back to the point where this universe was created out of free will. Thus, we have to see what could be an independent choice.

My first point was on the following lines: If person B would have made similar choices as person A then B would have been the person A and some other person would have been B.

It is possible that there are many possible paths with fixed destination and destiny , but it is up to us to choose a particular path. God doesn't care who will choose which path, but knows that which path leads to which destination.

Thats an interesting way of putting it Karan 😛

Originally posted by: angie.4u

Thats an interesting way of putting it Karan 😛

thanks 😛

But, I still feel that limited understanding of "what is time?", "what is knowledge?" and some similar things will limit us in a way to understand free will vs omniscience.

I am giving two options to the proponents of free will and belief in God's omniscience.

Only one of the following is possible but not both:

a. God is omniscient
b. we have free will

Originally posted by: Mister.K.

I am giving two options to the proponents of free will and belief in God's omniscience.

Only one of the following is possible but not both:

a. God is omniscient
b. we have free will

There are some complex cases involved too. Like "we are small parts of God", etc as in your topic.

what about a third alternative - we have limited will not completely free. eg The course of life is already determined by laws of karma but it is upto us to stop creating more bad karmas & try & create good ones instead. Otherwise the whole theory of karma is meaningless if "everything" is predetermined .

Originally posted by: karandel_2008

There are some complex cases involved too. Like "we are small parts of God", etc as in your topic.

😊

Yes! That's why, I took the equation of God out of my final analysis and replaced Him with an abstract, formless-, quality-less Consciousness. Keeps the variables to a minimum. Not that all answers are known there but what's that they say about Occam's razor?

Something like the pic below: for every divergent path there is an equallly opposite, counter and divergent path. It is our free will to diverge more and more, as much as we want, but our divergence creates some more counter paths, due to reaction, and in the end paths meet to cancel out each other.