Armaan = Siddhu in making ?

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Sultan

@I_M_SultaN

Master

+ 11

Posted: 11 years ago

#11

😆 kia jor nikala ha wah 😆 Nyc post DIA

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NoThanks

@NoThanks

Rocker

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#12

Purva I don't think Dolly will be happy to read this comparison with Baba naagdev.

He slapped her apparently.

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Purva

@-Purva-

Dazzler

+ 5

Posted: 11 years ago

#13

- Do you think their age has anything to do with such sexist thoughts considering they belong to the older generation ?

I don't think age is any indicator of how a person thinks. I belong to the same generation as these men. I'm 42. No sexist attitude has nothing to do with age. It does not even come from how educated you are.

Remember if today's generation knows it is wrong to pass lewd comments on women - it is because someone older than you taught you that in the first place and reinforced that belief ever step of the way.

Social attitudes come from the society itself - the kind of people one associates with, interacts with on a day to day basis, the kind of statements one hears around all day and the kind of jokes one cracks. Which is why it becomes important to ruthlessly oppose all manifestations of such attitudes around oneself whenever and wherever they occur. And that brings me to your next question.

- Would you like to see such men around you ? Why or Why not ?
Nopes not at all. I wouldn't want any such men around me at all. Though, when we were kids my earnest desire was to get married to a person who demanded a hefty dowry, preferably someone who'd already killed a couple of wives, just so that I could torture him and his family into either killing themselves or so that I could add arsenic in their food and watch them die a slow death. Thankfully by the time I'd crossed my teens, I outgrew all such dreams.

Why I wouldn't want such people around me is simple. The only reason such attitudes exist and prosper in society is because we either turn a blind eye to these incidents or shrug our shoulders in a chalta hai kind of response or worst of all advise everyone to move past it.

would you move past it and forgive someone who kills your child? Would you forgive someone who rapes your child? Would you forgive someone who robs your child of everything that is good and vital? Why would you then forgive someone who robs someone of their dignity and self-respect, who humiliates them and turns them into a social pariah.

Wouldn't it be better to ostracize people who make sexist remarks. Instead of letting them humiliate you, ask them in a loud voice "what do you mean by that" denounce them, humiliate them, deny them social acceptance. Voila you've taken a major step towards changing society.

- Just because some women get attracted to such chauvinist, does that mean they are any less chauvinist for you ?
Now the reply to this would be kind of dicey. Does attraction always result in happiness? If that is so why do so many women who go in for love-marriages end up as battered wives? Are the women who are living with abusive husbands really doing so out of a desire to live in untenable situations or because they have no other alternative?

Chauvinism has no degrees. Reminds me of the famous Thatcher Quote "Either you are a Lady or you are not". Chauvinism is also stark black and white. Either a person s chauvinistic or he's not. There can be no less than or more than about it.

Whether I would live with such a person or not is not the point. Question is whether the person would survive or not? I would have either changed his attitude around completely or I would have thrown him out of my life and home permanently. That is if I ever got conned into allowing such a person in my life in the first place.

- Do you feel such thoughts pull society in the opposite direction when we are trying to bring it out of the old patriarchal status ?

These thoughts per se do not pull society in the opposite direction. It is an acknowledged fact that a vast majority of the population, globally feels that such attitudes are valid. It is up to us to ensure how and in what manner we deal with it in our own circles.

All of us have circles on influence. So if I can influence 50 people around me to not accept a sexist attitude and those 50 in their turn influence people in their own circles of influence - that is how we'll bring about a change.

After all that is how we've succeeded in nearly stamping out racism, bringing LGBT community into the forefront and obviating their need to dissemble, supplanted Monarchy and tyranny with democracy.

But we have to also remember no social change comes in a day. We cannot eradicate thousands of years of patriarchy with fifty years of Women's Rights movement. The change will come not in our times but it will.

Till then we'll need to continue opposing the Siddhus and Armans of this world.

Edited by -Purva- - 11 years ago

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Purva

@-Purva-

Dazzler

+ 5

Posted: 11 years ago

#14

Final word on the sexist attitude of both the men.

I find Siddhu's brand of chauvinism more dangerous and insidious. He would utter his dialogs and one-liners with an assurance that it would be accepted unquestioningly. He would make sexist comments while sugar-coating everything he said.

Arman's chuvinism is the kind you see on the street-side romeos. It is easily identified and countered. Siddhu's is the type you face in boardroom. It is very subtle, well disguised and very difficult to counter or even prove in a court of law.

For all his big words I never saw Siddhu doing an honest day's work in the house. He expected to be served, would not help out with the household chores and you would never hear him offering to chop onions a la Arman.

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 11 years ago

#15

There is benevolent sexism' in society. There is an old fashioned notion that women are treasured flowers meant to be cherished and protected. Many men in India and around the world are raised with the notion that they ought to be protectors of their daughters, sisters, wives and mothers. This is because a woman is painted as tender, soft, nurturing etc. I never disliked Siddhu for such views. I think in his mind he meant well. But men in our society have been conditioned over and over again that they find it hard to break the mold. Why even we sometimes succumb to the mold getting offended when a man doesn't treat her like a treasure. This notion is harmful to men too. Men and women are equal. Both deserve to be cherished, protected and most importantly respected according to their own merit. We see this when men are told not to raise their voices or fight back, even when a woman is abusive. We see this where good fathers lose custody battles to less able mothers because he isn't perceived to be soft and nurturing enough for a child. In my observation both parents can be equally nurturing to kids.

For more on benevolent sexism - http://www.understandingprejudice.org/asi/faq

This site is maintained and updated by qualified social psychologists. Yep. This time I brought in the experts so that people don't delude themselves that I'm having delusions of grandeur. 😆

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Picasso9

@Picasso9

Dazzler

Posted: 11 years ago

#16

Hey DIA,

- Do you think their age has anything to do with such sexist thoughts considering they belong to the older generation ?

Nah, age has got nothing to do with it. 😆 My contemporaries in the same age bracket don't exhibit these kind of Values. They have daughters, just starting college, who are not restricted because they are girls. On the other hand I've seen plenty of younger generation behave that way because their mothers dote on them and serve them and even make their sisters serve them. It's getting better though, but as Purva stated we won't see the benefits yet. Will take many generations. Maybe our granddaughters will enjoy a better life.

- Would you like to see such men around you ? Why or Why not ?

No. I can barely tolerate it. I have two brothers, no sisters. We grew up with equality, no discrimination on what I could or couldn't do in comparison to them. My parents didn't dictate level of schooling or careers. They both are younger than me but married before me. None of that, you are a girl, and have to do certain things within a certain time frame. Neither did I get favored for being the only girl. No benevolent sexism either. I had o pull my weight just like my brothers. In fact my parents insisted on it. It taught all 3 of us responsibility, ownership and accountability.

- Just because some women get attracted to such chauvinist, does that mean they are any less chauvinist for you ?

Not at all. By surrounding themselves with females who like the 'bad boy' image doesn't legitimize them. The inherent nature cannot be masked by decoration on the arm.

- Do you feel such thoughts pull society in the opposite direction when we are trying to bring it out of the old patriarchal status ?

No. The fact that dialogue is happening even if its not what we want to hear means that somebody is listening. The drop is creating ripples.

About RTH's post on Benevolent Sexism. I love it. It is also so true. I believe a woman should pay her way. Go Dutch or even buy him flowers. Equality should go both ways. Dads should be recognized for their invaluable role in raising a child. The respect should be reciprocal.

However men do have it easier because of the prevailing mentality. Men don't have to prove their worth, it's already intrinsically present.

I want to also highlight, that for every man that abuses a woman, there is almost always another man who helps her. So as to alleviate any misconceptions that this is a man bashing post. 😊

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Misfit

@Misfit

Voyager

Posted: 11 years ago

#17

I sometimes feel bad for these men because they grow up in an chauvinistic environment. They see their dads and uncles behaving in same manner then how do you think they are going to behave any better. In some houses there is so much child abuse going on behind the closed doors then how do you expect these children to respect others feelings when they grow up. If you see the living conditions of the slums inthe major cities we can't imagine those children to become some civilized citizens when they grow up.

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752993

Suspended

Posted: 11 years ago

#18

Originally posted by: Picasso9

I want to also highlight, that for every man that abuses a woman, there is almost always another man who helps her. So as to alleviate any misconceptions that this is a man bashing post. 😊

This is the sad state of the forum where we can't even express our opinions without being tagged as a misandrist or a men hater for speaking against few men and their wrong notions. I mean where's the fun to go around hating every men on the planet for no rhyme or reason and lose out on our share of adventure 😆 But I am definitely allowed to dislike and mock the pervs 😉

As for rest, will come input tomorrow. Exam in few hours

Edited by Diva-In-Armor - 11 years ago

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695779

Suspended

Posted: 11 years ago

#19

This topic is awesome! I love it! 😆

I might get back to this one later. First of all it bothers me a lot when men say such things about women. Some of them do imply in a way that almost suggests they condemn other women that don't fall along those lines.

Something like "lajja" is outdated and should have been buried in the ground 50 years ago. Talking about "lajja" today is a joke relating it to culture or morality is an even bigger joke when in some ways our society is so disturbing with the way we treat women with a complete lack of respect. Armaan ji himself had no lajja when he was telling Ellie to walk around in an orange bikini herself!

Edited by digitalcamera - 11 years ago

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Bazigar

@Bazigar

Voyager

Posted: 11 years ago

#20

I want to make an off topic point. It is worth thinking that more than those chauvinist, or just the case of eve teasing situation like Armaan created , or even in general in our society to an extreme as far as rape why in most instances we try to be defensive or in most cases try to blame both the perpetrator and victim. The important thinking is why we put both victim and perpetrator in the blame game in gender related crime but not in normal crimes. Are those chauvinist ideas are having approval of us. Why we always blame both perpetrator and victim in sexual offence.

Try to blame both perpetrator and victim

Yes we do have a tendency to blame perpetrator and victim . In most of the crime against women or sexual harassment cases sometime our tendency is to blame both without realising that it indirectly an approval for the perpetrator. If the question is why? then may be sometime we have false notion by relating to the same gender as the perpetrator is man the false sense prevail that may be the onus is on me , or there can be some false sense of superiority which is there since generations , all of these plays in mind. When we try to indirectly defend any crime we simultaneously forget that the same women were there in our own relations in family etc. and we never share the idea or anything similar to perpetrator. Still always we witness our defensive mechanism works in hidden form in these blame .

Consider the case in gender crime to a normal crime : When there is a murder happen we never ever blame the victim , even there is not a single statement that why he went there alone or why moving in the early hour of night adding to all other causes, the first and foremost we blame the perpetrator because we relate to the victim, on the other case when there is a crime against women we will hear all type of excuse, blame and shame the victim addition to all other relevant causes .

Another example take the case of recent butcher of a couple by girls own parents in the name of honor killing . Here the extreme form of most chauvinist patriarchy form of thinking the honor of a family always related to the girls not on the side of man, so kill the couple and get back the honor infront of society . The most interesting thing is girls own mother instigated family to cut into pieces her own girl and part of the murder. Other than sexual crime , women also play a role in most of the crime against women. As usual those villagers , khaps all blame the victim specially the girl for influence of western culture blah blah. May be this blame is indirectly diluting the gravity of crime and a way of approval for perpetrator.

Even nothing else in society, it is a tendency to try to discredit people who discuss forget about raise these issues or take a stand on these, as if discussing these thing are crime against humanity, we can discuss anything and everything under the sun but these subjects are considered as untouchable . Is it not laughable when we hear such type of things for expressing may be in 4 to 5 instances out of may be 100 discussion/opinion on other things.

Edited by ramjaane - 11 years ago

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