The Print Article - Indians ignore what was done to Subhadra - Page 4

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Abduction is wrong now, Abduction wasn't wrong back then, Krushna stated abduction as one of the methods through which Kshatriya marry the women they desire, according to their rules it wasn't wrong, what makes it wrong is Krushna's acknowledgement of Subhadra’s protest

That's why I quoted that part of the article, we are putting the blame on her and romanticizing it by asking 'Why didn't she protest?' when her brother himself said that he does not know what she will do, if told about it.

It is entirely possible that she would have agreed to marry Arjun on her Swyamvar that was her right as stated by Krushna himself and if she was to say no to Arjun, what's wrong in it? He didn't give her a chance to say 'Yes' or 'No'

How can she protest in front of weapons? She was taken away by force, The thing is that she didn't know

Balram and Duryodhana thing is false, This narrative was built to tell us that Subhadra would have been married to the villain of this story if Krushna and Arjun didn't take away the right of consent from her

If I talk about this whole ordeal in today's time then obviously forced marriage is nothing but human rights violation, assault and rape so each one of them was a criminal to practice it. None gets a clean chit

I am not putting any blame on her. I am only wondering if she ever protested. If she did, nobody would listen to her because Kshatriya Dharma or whatever. But at least, we would know she tried. It's natural for her to be scared or also, if she gets to know her brother is a part of this then naturally even if she disliked it she would lose the ability to protest. However, there's no blame on her for NOT protesting. I was just wondering if she tried to stop it.

If there was a Swayamvar, I am sure Krishna could instruct or manipulate his sister into saying Yes or choosing only Arjun. I am just trying to find out why the method of abduction was chosen unless there is some reason. Krishna need not have done this, he could have easily asked Balaram for it and if Dury-Balram thing is false then there's no reason for Balaram to not accept this. So he had so many ways to do it. Why choose abduction where his own sister's rights are violated?

This is the only question I am raising.

Originally posted by: NoraSM

The answer is clear, he couldn't manipulate or instruct her to marry Arjun, that's what he said -

""Vasudeva answered, 'O bull amongst men, self-choice hath been ordained for the marriage of Kshatriyas. But that is doubtful (in its consequences), O Partha, as we do not know this girl's temper and disposition."

According to this part, Krushna knows that it is Subhadra’s right to choose her husband for marriage (Talking about Swayamvar) but he doesn't know if she will pick Arjun or not so

"In the case of Kshatriyas that are brave, a forcible abduction for purposes of marriage is applauded, as the learned have said. Therefore O Arjuna, carry away this my beautiful sister by force, for who knows what she may do at a self-choice.'

If he could manipulate her then Swayamvar was a better option as he didn't have to pacify Balram

There is a difference between manipulation anf convincing. Manipulation is something Krishna excels in. This means to convince Subhadra that Arjun is the right choice. Also, unless Subhadra was a rebel like Amba I don't see any reason how she could say no to something her brothers decided for her.

Krishna's intention was political is a fact. I don't think there's two ways about that. However, he could have let any of the Pandavas marry her, Yudhishthir for instance. She could be Queen. But he chose Arjun because apparently good husband material.

Now, as per citations provided, Krishna is not sure whether Subhadra would at all choose Arjun. All women had the right to choose their husbands via a Swayamvar. However, I am just saying would it not be easy for someone like Krishna to CONVINCE his sister that Arjun is the right choice. (It would still be manipulation because that denies her the right to use her free will). But yet, it would be better than having his own sister abducted by his friend.

I am only saying, I wonder why he didn't go for Option 1 and insisted on abduction. Now we don't know much about Subhadra's character. Maybe he had his doubts that he could not manipulate her or convince Balaram that Arjun is the right choice. And he HAD TO get this marriage to happen - cold ruthless politics.

However again, this does not justify what he did. He took away Subhadra's right to choose and convinced Arjun to abduct her. Interestingly, Subhadra hardly has anything to say even in later times which also makes me wonder probably her voice was supressed lest she destroys Krishna's divine image. This is a move to whitewash KRISHNA, not Arjun because Arjun technically was not legally wrong but definitely morally wrong as he never protested. I would like to believe he was very much interested in this and he too hence grabbed this chance. There is no reason to think Arjun was not willing, so he was at fault too, but Krishna more.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

^^^ Krishna could hardly manipulate Balram. Despite being the husband of his sister, Arjun was never dearer to Balram ji than Duryodhan, there is no need to believe that Krishna ji could have manipulated everyone.

This line in the epic clearly indicate that he wasn't sure that he would be able to manipulate her

As I said, I don't buy that Balram ji insisting on the marriage with Duryodhan story since had it been so, Duryodhan would have attempted to marry other Yadav princess and Blaram would have facilitated that

Yeah he could not have manipulated Balaram, but I thought he could convince Subhadra into choosing Arjun but seems like Subhadra was not dumb either- because Krishna says he cannot influence her choice.

Duryodhan story is not a part of any accepted version so yeah it was false.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Did Balram have other sisters? Half may be, but full? Because Balram ran the show in Dwaraka. If Subhadra was Rohini's only daughter, then marrying her would ensure Dwaraka's support in a way other sisters wouldn't. Well... Balram went ahead and supported Suyodhana anyway.😆

That being said, because this story is not in KMG, I have a suspicion that Krishna engineered it to make sure Arjuna was able to return to Dwaraka with everyone's ruffled feathers soothed. If Arjuna's "weapon" in Panchali's chambers means what I think it does, Arjuna-Subhadra marriage was absolutely essential before he could return.

Vasudev ji had 86 children from all his wives. There is no reason to believe that Subhadra was the only girl in those 86( will still recheck on this)

Even if the other sisters were not Rohini's daughter, I don't think it would mean they will not have much influence on Dwarka association. Balram ji was least interested in his sister's husband or Bua's sons. For Krishna and other Yadav brothers all the sisters would be equal (Subhadra or someone else)

What is your weapon theory though? Would like to know you are very well researched

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Arjuna's weapon was in weapon room, not in panchali's chamber

See the problem with thinking "weapon" is a "weapon" and not the other "weapon"😆 is then there was no need for exile.

1. There was actually no one year rule.

2. If the king and queen were in weapons room, and Arjuna simply walked in for a legit reason, why would he get exiled?

3. Actually, why was there a need to go to weapons room? He didn't have the gandeev yet at the time. He used regular bows and arrows like every other warrior. There were many armed guards in the place. He could've simply gotten one from any of them.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Thanks. There are other people who are actually well researched, but I'll take the compliment😆.

Like I said to Nora, there was no one yer rule. There was no legit reason for Arjuna to get exiled for simply seeing Yudhishtira and Panchali together in the weapons room if it were actually a weapon. He didn't even need to go to the weapons room. Arjuna didn't have his gandeev yet, and for a regular bow and arrows, he could've simply borrowed from any of the guards.

My theory might not sit well with a lot of people, but remember this is only speculation based on psychology of men and women.

I think there was lingering attraction between Arjuna and Panchali from swayamvar. I think by "weapon," Vyasa meant... er... his male weapon. He might've gotten caught making a move when he wasn't supposed to. I don't know if she reciprocated. In any case, he got exiled.

Krishna wasn't informed for whatever reason. After a year, when Arjuna ended up in Dwaraka, Krishna got to hear of the events. He knew Arjuna needed to return for future plans... ie, empire building. Ulupi was a naga girl and Chitrangada stayed in Manipura; neither situation was enough to make sure the awkwardness was soothed. Krishna saw Arjuna was attracted to Subhadra. If they were married, she could actually be the ticket to his reentry into Indraprastha as all parties wouldn't want to mess up that alliance - neither Arjuna by breaking her heart, nor the Pandava family by not welcoming her and her husband in.

Actually, this exile in the absence of the one year rule is another piece of evidence against polyandry. If she were indeed married to all 5 with no such rule, why was Arjuna exiled? There are other interesting bits as well which add to my disbelief of polyandry, but that's another discussion.

I read the part and it is illogical because till now I thought Arjun went in the weapon room without knowing about Yudhishtira and Draupadi being there. But in text, he has this conversation with himself where he contemplates on going inside the room and going on exile vs Citizens shaming Yudhishtira for not being able to protect cattle

1 He could have used any bow and arrow, as you pointed out

2 He could have asked any dasi or doorman to fetch his weapon

3 He could have knocked on the door

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

😆

The "weapon" theory is something most writers with a non-divine approach take. Because the exile doesn't make any sense in a reality based world. In the absence of a one-year rule, Arjuna was being exiled for a non-existent crime if it were really bow and arrows Vyasa was talking about.

The part about Krishna's motive is speculation on my part. The other possibility is that Suyodhana-Subhadra engagement was a real thing, and Krishna wanted to break it. The question then comes why didn't he do it before? Arjuna's visit wasn't planned. So if he hadn't visited, what was Krishna planning to do to avoid getting Suyodhana as brother-in-law?

I'm not surprised by the skepticism. The theory has more twists than a jalebi. 😆 Still, it's the only one which I couldn't poke holes in.

But how can we be sure that there was no one year rule? Even if for nothing else, it is needed for being confirmed on paternity. Maybe they did have one such rule, when we can accept Subhadra Duryodhan engagement possibility, why not one year rule.

Else if there was no such rule, then maybe at that time Yudhishtir was in the mood to reach out to Draupadi and that's when he saw Arjun with his weapons.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

But how can we be sure that there was no one year rule? Even if for nothing else, it is needed for being confirmed on paternity. Maybe they did have one such rule, when we can accept Subhadra Duryodhan engagement possibility, why not one year rule.

Else if there was no such rule, then maybe at that time Yudhishtir was in the mood to reach out to Draupadi and that's when he saw Arjun with his weapons.

Well... there was no one year rule as per KMG or CE. All Narada says is one brother shouldn't approach her when another brother is with her. Basically... ahem... no orgies.😆 I kid you not. Vyasa didn't pull his punches the way the shows do. If my mapping of family relationships is right, Panchali was likely Devala's granddaughter (bio or adopted). I believe Devala was the Narada of the era. He was warning his grandsons-in-law not to mess with his bitiya😆. CONJECTURE: Narada also managed to start insecurities in Yudhishtira's mind which might have led to subsequent deterioration in his behavior.

This pre-exile setup is one of the many reasons I don't think there was any polyandry, but let's say there was. There had to have been some kind of rule set. Arjuna likely broke it. The weapon theory - as in archery equipment - does not fit.

Someone else was asking why did Arjuna apologize when he returned. It wasn't the first time he married. Surely, his family got to know of Chitrangada, at least. So the apology could not have been for marriage. The other possibility is that it was for bringing Subhadra home which is where Pattnaik came up with his insane theory of Panchali not allowing any other wives in Indraprastha. But since she made no such condition, she surely knew other wives would be coming home. I can somewhat understand her getting upset. But see the sequence of events which unfold - Arjuna goes to the king, then the queen who refuses to acknowledge him, then his mother, then Subhadra goes to Panchali. Arjuna goes there to apologize BEFORE she gets upset, BEFORE he even visits his mother. I can think of only one thing which would necessitate an apology at that point - perhaps the incident which got him exiled. Subhadra's soothing of Panchali's anger would've been his acceptance.

I think Subhadra was not only Krishna's way of 1) cementing the alliance between Dwaraka and Indraprastha and 2) getting Arjuna back in, it was also 3) a not-so-gentle reminder to Panchali many things were at stake.

We see these people as the heroes they became. But they were also young once, with all the stupidities and immaturity which go along with youth. It's not a huge stretch to imagine personal relationships getting in the way of what was clearly a well-planned political merger.

I'm not fond of the Suyodhan-Subhadra theory, either, because then it seems like Krishna had no plan in place until Arjuna unexpectedly walked by.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

See the problem with thinking "weapon" is a "weapon" and not the other "weapon"😆 is then there was no need for exile.

1. There was actually no one year rule.

2. If the king and queen were in weapons room, and Arjuna simply walked in for a legit reason, why would he get exiled?

3. Actually, why was there a need to go to weapons room? He didn't have the gandeev yet at the time. He used regular bows and arrows like every other warrior. There were many armed guards in the place. He could've simply gotten one from any of them.

dint arjun get the gandeev during the khandavprastha forest burning😕. or did the forest burning happen after his exile