Kunti and karna - Page 3

Unlike others in this thread, I'm not necessarily a Karna fan (my favorite character is Bhima). But I did take your thread to be more about Kunti, and on her, I happen to consider her one of the most loathsome characters in the epic, rivaling Manthara in the Ramayan. Yeah, I agree that Karna had his faults, but all that is tangential to the question of whether Kunti did right by him.

I agree w/ RkS above that she didn't ask him to spare any of her sons, but disagree w/ her that she had the 'maternal license' to ask a son she had either forgotten or ignored all those years to now turn around against the person who made him what he was. If she didn't like the idea of her sons killing each other, she should have introduced them to each other before. After the game of dice, things were simply irreconcilable. And if her sons didn't kill each other, they did freely kill her grandsons - Karna Ghototkach, and Nakul, Arjun and Bhima all but one of Karna's sons (who was killed by Satyaki)

Even if one accepts that she was shocked at the archery contest, she had a number of opportunities where she could have told her sons about Karna - after the house of lac, during the Pandava reign in Indraprastha, and similarly, she could have invited Karna and instead of doing it during his pujas, invited him to a private setting and told him their whole story. B/w Karna and Yudhisthir, they could have worked it out.

Originally posted by: RamKiSeeta

I do agree that Kunti gets a lot of backlash from people who forgive these same mistakes in the male characters.

As far as her asking Karna to spare her other sons, she never asked him that. She asks him to join her brothers so that she doesn't need to see any of her sons die. As a woman, this request may have been in bad taste after everything that happened, but as a mother it's understandable. No mother wants to see her children kill one another. Even if one son has been separated or rejected all his life, when it comes to his death, no mother will want to see that.

So was her request morally wrong? Maybe. But is it understandable from a mother's POV? YES. This is why Karna even tells her he won't kill any of his brothers except Arjuna. Kunti never asked it of him, but he still wanted to appease his mother somewhat, because he understood her heart.

If that was the case, why didn't she say the same things to Pandavas? In that way too his kids would have been safe!

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Unlike others in this thread, I'm not necessarily a Karna fan (my favorite character is Bhima). But I did take your thread to be more about Kunti, and on her, I happen to consider her one of the most loathsome characters in the epic, rivaling Manthara in the Ramayan. Yeah, I agree that Karna had his faults, but all that is tangential to the question of whether Kunti did right by him.

I agree w/ RkS above that she didn't ask him to spare any of her sons, but disagree w/ her that she had the 'maternal license' to ask a son she had either forgotten or ignored all those years to now turn around against the person who made him what he was. If she didn't like the idea of her sons killing each other, she should have introduced them to each other before. After the game of dice, things were simply irreconcilable. And if her sons didn't kill each other, they did freely kill her grandsons - Karna Ghototkach, and Nakul, Arjun and Bhima all but one of Karna's sons (who was killed by Satyaki)

Even if one accepts that she was shocked at the archery contest, she had a number of opportunities where she could have told her sons about Karna - after the house of lac, during the Pandava reign in Indraprastha, and similarly, she could have invited Karna and instead of doing it during his pujas, invited him to a private setting and told him their whole story. B/w Karna and Yudhisthir, they could have worked it out.

Hi 5!!! I love bhim too he is my third favourite character after drapaudi and krishna and also my favourite pandava

About my post all i wanted to say is i think kunti does gets way too much backlash for doing that every other character in the epic has done at some point in the epic . see manipulation using situation for their own advantage , thinking more about themselves than others aren't these cores thing of this great epic in which all the characters are just mere humans.

And about doing the right thing many things could have gone differently many people could have done something different than what they did ?? Then why single out kunti. She did what she felt was right thing like others.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Why should she not have kept quiet? He was adopted by a loving couple, lived a cushy life by his own admission, got a superlative education Brahmashira notwithstanding, was friends with a prince, and was made king of Anga.

If anything, PANDAVAS had room to complain about her silence after Karna tried to poison Bheem and kill them all in Varanavat.

It waa only after dice hall that Kunti called him wretch and went to manipulate him. He was a criminal by then. Irredeemable after what he did. Pick any criminal from today. What would you say to his bio mom who actually supported him? Would you admire her rather than the bio mom who arranged things so that the criminal son got caught/faced death for his actions? Someone like her would've been called a patriot today.

As I said before what I don't get is why she divulged anything to the Pandavas. Luckily, except for Yudhishtira, no one appeared to have given a damn.

I agree that Kunti wronged both Karna as well as the Pandavas. Which is why Yudhisthir cursed all womankind, since he couldn't curse her. But she deserved to be cursed. Also, Karna was nowhere in the picture when Bhima was poisoned.

As you point out, it was only after the game of dice that Kunti went to manipulate him. But what right did she have? If one looks at it from the POV that he's not her son, then she had no business seeing him. Her meeting him was as inappropriate as meeting Dushashan would have been. And my other major beef w/ her was her staying in Hastinapur during those 13 years: she should have moved to either Kuntibhoj or Vasudev for that time, not lived w/ the family that tried to disrobe her bahu.

I think one can have differences w/ either Karna or the Pandavas, but there is no way one can justify Kunti's actions, regardless of which side one supports in all of this

Plus the only two character who have always tried to salvage the situation rather than contributing to the ever growing volcano of dispute were krishna and krishnaa. But I guess dice hall was their saturation point and they reliase that it was time for some serious change

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

I agree that Kunti wronged both Karna as well as the Pandavas. Which is why Yudhisthir cursed all womankind, since he couldn't curse her. But she deserved to be cursed. Also, Karna was nowhere in the picture when Bhima was poisoned.

As you point out, it was only after the game of dice that Kunti went to manipulate him. But what right did she have? If one looks at it from the POV that he's not her son, then she had no business seeing him. Her meeting him was as inappropriate as meeting Dushashan would have been. And my other major beef w/ her was her staying in Hastinapur during those 13 years: she should have moved to either Kuntibhoj or Vasudev for that time, not lived w/ the family that tried to disrobe her bahu.

I think one can have differences w/ either Karna or the Pandavas, but there is no way one can justify Kunti's actions, regardless of which side one supports in all of this

She clearly wasn't meeting him as HIS mother; she was meeting him as mother/stepmother of the Pandavas. That she used the fact she gave birth to Karna as weapon against him is undeniable.

I don't think you and I disagree on her motives. She made her opinion clear when she talked about him as a wretch. Difference is you seem to condemn it; I don't. I think Karna was too far gone by then.

IMO, she had some anger towards Yudhishtira also. She does call him a coward. Which might be why she finally divulges Karna's birth to him. She surely knew it would mess with Yudhishtira's mind. But I do have to add here (because of what Kunti divulged) I was thrilled to finally read Panchali burst out and call Yudhshtira a madman who should've been locked up. She waited until she got what she wanted from him, then told him some truths. As did Bheema, by the way.

Re: Kunti not going to Kuntibhoj. There is a portion in her conversation with Krishna she blames both her fathers for whatever happened to her. And she didn't return to either home after any of the calamities in her life. Kunti seems to have been capable of solidly holding a grudge. Another motive for staying on in Hastinapuri might've been to spy on the Kurus

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

I agree that Kunti wronged both Karna as well as the Pandavas. Which is why Yudhisthir cursed all womankind, since he couldn't curse her. But she deserved to be cursed. Also, Karna was nowhere in the picture when Bhima was poisoned.

As you point out, it was only after the game of dice that Kunti went to manipulate him. But what right did she have? If one looks at it from the POV that he's not her son, then she had no business seeing him. Her meeting him was as inappropriate as meeting Dushashan would have been. And my other major beef w/ her was her staying in Hastinapur during those 13 years: she should have moved to either Kuntibhoj or Vasudev for that time, not lived w/ the family that tried to disrobe her bahu.

I think one can have differences w/ either Karna or the Pandavas, but there is no way one can justify Kunti's actions, regardless of which side one supports in all of this

For the second point she lived with Vidurji and not the palace people. Vidurji was the only one to take a stance for her daughter in law.

That in fact could have very much been a pressure tactics to hurt the sentiments of the royal family there. Seeing the lady who is your first level relative having so much wronged would definitely give you some moral low ground, even if not to Duryodhan or Dusshashan but at least to the likes of Vikarna or other brothers. That psychological attack is nowhere a small one

Her telling Karna about the truth was nowhere out of love, had it been by an intention to save all her sons she would have said the same to Pandavas as well. They might have made such an arrangement that they didn't kill Karna but maybe wound him severely so that he doesn't return to Kurukshetra. It was clearly a political move to attack onto her just at the time. Karna accepted to not kill any other Pandava excluding Arjun, had he killed Yudhishtir the war would have been over. That's the reason sometimes I really doubt if Karna actually was her son or did she just make up a story to losen the only unconditional support that Duryodhan had with him

P.S. Bheem is my favourite character too excluding Krishna ji. As a kid I had a crush on Krishna ji

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Why should she not have kept quiet? He was adopted by a loving couple, lived a cushy life by his own admission, got a superlative education Brahmashira notwithstanding, was friends with a prince, and was made king of Anga.

If anything, PANDAVAS had room to complain about her silence after Karna tried to poison Bheem and kill them all in Varanavat.

It waa only after dice hall that Kunti called him wretch and went to manipulate him. He was a criminal by then. Irredeemable after what he did. Pick any criminal from today. What would you say to his bio mom who actually supported him? Would you admire her rather than the bio mom who arranged things so that the criminal son got caught/faced death for his actions? Someone like her would've been called a patriot today.

As I said before what I don't get is why she divulged anything to the Pandavas. Luckily, except for Yudhishtira, no one appeared to have given a damn.

Right??

Honestly, I think Kunti may have spoken up a lot earlier if Karna didn't have a good life with his adopted family, but he did. Adiratha and Radha loved him as their own. He never lacked anything. He was even provided with a good education and became King of Anga. He lived a pretty privileged life. If anyone had the right to complain, it was the Pandavas, who were born in the forests and lived a minimalist life for many years, came to Hastinapur and were bullied by their cousins, and had to fight for their rights their entire life.

As a mother, I can understand why Kunti did not speak out seeing Karna's happy life.

As for why Kunti approached HIM and not the Pandavas, she wanted the Pandavas to win because her DIL deserved justice for what the Kauravas and Karna did to her. Like you said, Kunti called Karna a wretch due to his behavior in the dice hall. After seeing that, Draupadi deserved her justice so why would Kunti, whose thoughts were in accordance with Krishna regarding the war, approach her own sons and reveal the truth? Krishna would never have left her. She approached Karna for the same reason Krishna did. To give him one LAST opportunity to join the side of dharma and make right his wrongs.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

If that was the case, why didn't she say the same things to Pandavas? In that way too his kids would have been safe!

And this would have defeated the greater purpose.

Originally posted by: Wistfulness

Revealing it to the Pandavas would have compelled the great Yudhisthira to back out from the war. 😆

And this would have defeated the greater purpose.

That's a stupid argument and afterthought I think

When we are clear that the Kaneen sons of wife do not have the right to inherit the property of husband for his mother, then definitely Karna was not a contender to the throne. He could have been the 150th one probably after all Pandavas, all Kauravs, Abhimanyu, Parikshit and other first second generation kids (if at all).

Yudhishtir being the Dharmaraj this revelation should not have made any difference. It's just as assuming that Yuyutsu being the elder brother of Kauravas joined Yudhishtir hence Duryodhan will stop the war.