The ill-effects of an age disparity

In my estimation, there will be none where Simi and Abhi are concerned ...

There is such an unholy interest and inane discussion on age difference and it's affect on a marriage ... traditional societies, ancestors, prevailing wisdom, post-menopausal women's libido, men building careers while spouses are distracted at 40 (!!!!!) ... all generously thrown into the cauldron by febrile imaginations to spice things up ...

I would hardly advocate censorship so by all means air your views, however quaint ... being censorious though, is not only my privilege but imperative ... Indians will never go down in history for their understanding of and appreciation for fact and precision (to wit - as has been rightfully pointed out - a culture that has the same word for tomorrow and yesterday is probably at least lost in time if not lost altogether) ... everything is always 'good enough' ... the consequence is a level of shoddiness that seeps into cavernous vacuous minds and sets up a permanent home ...

Armed to the teeth with misinformation, the incongruously intrepid sally out to inform the world at large of 'reality' ... not a moment wasted on reflection ... essential hours researching to separate the wheat from the chaff quite out of the question ... superfluous ...

Let me exercise my propensity to 'dissect' (as I have been accused) ...

Here's a gem 'The question of women ageing faster is quite true.' OK ... all questions are 'true' (answers not always) e.g. my question 'why are unicorns blue?' is true ... but let's assume that what was actually meant was 'it's a fact that women age faster than men?' ... they do?!! The vast scientific and medical community still grapple with the concept of, and reasons behind the phenomenon of aging, and yet the writer is convinced of her infallibility and conviction in this belief ... tantamount to declaring: 'the author has so stated, nothing further need be said, Quod Erat Demonstradum' ...

Here's another: 'Olden days this scientific concept of older guy younger woman was preferred for several reasons...' Perhaps it's presumptuous, but I find myself questioning the author's understanding of the term 'scientific' ... it appears to be a feel good kind of thing ... a popular notion so let's interject it into everything under the sun ... I wonder if the author understands that the 'scientific' method is used to reveal fact and establish reality ... Method?!! One might well ask ... yes ... it's the method that begins with a proposition or hypothesis, employs rigorous methods of data collection - via direct experimentation with controls (e.g. determining the efficacy of drugs in the pharmaceutical industry) or extrapolation from other extant evidence (e.g. in anthropology/paleontology); employs rigorous methods of analysis using fairly esoteric mathematics ; allows for peer-review and criticism ... all precursors to declaring the hypothesis as fact ... did those oldies but goldies resort to any of this?

Something on the order of this:

6) In "A Genetic and Cultural Odyssey" you seemed rather unrepentant about not explaining the details of Principal Component Analysis though you obviously recognize the importance of mathematics to your work. The historian of science Will Provine has asserted Sewall Wright's original work which coalesced into the Shifting Balance was simply not internalized on a mathematical level by most workers, including disseminators such as Ernst Mayr, and that this resulted in subsequent confusions about the importance of random genetic drift and gene-gene interactions. Obviously biology is a science that is focused on a particular subject, life, as opposed to being hewed to any one method. Nevertheless, do you perceive in the next generation of trained biologists the mathematical aptitude and inclination to tackle problems both analytically and computationally so as to extract more insight from the excess of data generated by modern sequencing techniques?

I adore principal components, as you may have noted, and I was the first who introduced them into genetics (1963, Proc.Intl.Genetics Congress of the Hague). I also showed with Piazza in 1976 (Theor. Pop. Biology, 8: 127-165) that when a simple evolutionary model of mutation and drift is correct, principal components and trees give the same result, in the sense that eigenvalues and vectors calculated in the spectral analysis of populations x gene frequencies matrices correspond to the meaning and order of the nodes found in trees. But I have always found it difficult to explain rigorously principal components to people who have little confidence with mathematics, and I decided to test the skills of Lurquin and Stone, hoping they would do it better than what I usually do. Of course, the usual indication that it is a method to reduce the number of dimensions gives some ideas, but without an appreciation of the amounts of variance explained it may give a false sense of security .

'Olden days' ... how far back should we go? Where is there irrefutable evidence that the reasoning then presented is hardcoded fact? Fascinatingly contorted, distorted, convoluted explanations are offered ... oocyte (ooooo) a transient object ... spermatogenesis (aaahhhh) an almost perpetual thing ... the ideal time to reproduce for a female was 20-28 ... I wonder if these 'modern' terms were known and understood in these olden times when the golden rules were promulgated?!! What was the average life-span of one of them goldies? Did women remain unmarried/chaste/celibate/childless until their 20's (gee only as recent as my grandmama's time, most - perhaps all - families married off their women well before that time) ...

I did love the euphemism 'an active family life' for the stuff that goes on behind closed doors ...

After all the meandering through false premises, the author to her credit, does arrive at a reasonable conclusion i.e. age differences are meaningless ... kudos!! Could we strive for a less scenic walk the next time tho' ... it causes me stress ... stress does appear to be correlated with 'aging'? I'm too young to be old ...

All said and done, I too, am confident, that Simi and Abhi will have a blissfully happy life and will be successfully procreative ... now, all that remains is for him to find her ... with complete disregard for my admonition she persists in carrying her cell phone ... all the way into the abandoned (?) hospital (which hardly appears derelict and how can an institution of that size be unoccupied?)

For the forum people, I would like to apologize if you feel it as off-topic discussion. But I felt compelled to do the same. If this does not apply to forum rules, I can PM it. Do let me know.

Dear Dipa,

Further discussion can be sent as PM. We are moving off-topic.

Female fertility declines with age. This is a known concept. Menopause is a term used to describe the end of a woman's normal menstrual function. Female menopause is characterized by changes in hormone production. The testes, unlike the ovaries, do not lose the ability to make hormones. If a man is healthy, he may be able to make sperm well into his 80s or longer. During menopause the female reproductive system gradually stops making the female hormones necessary for the reproductive cycle to work. When the body no longer produces these hormones a woman is considered to be menopausal. Hormonal influence plays a major role in normal sexual activity. www.clevelandclinic.org/health/.

Pubertal timing is also sexually dimorphic, with girls experiencing puberty on average 2 years earlier than boys. This is based on studies in Indian data. Men and women of the same age experience difference in sexual activity based on hormonal changes. In females it is cyclical and hence with Estrogen and progesterone levels being varied during different phase of the cycle influences the sexual activity in women. A working woman prioritizes her life following childbirth. The tendency to lose interest in sexual activity following childbirth and the busy schedule of her job is common at whatever age the woman belongs to. In case of women who are approaching 40, there is variation in the physical appearance as well with the possibility of putting on weight. A woman does not match the smartness which will still be evident even if her partner is of the same age as her. The problems faced by men who do not find their partners attractive anymore are common. And then the issues of infidelity usually arise. When such problems are arising, the family is shattered. So the woman has to take that extra effort to keep her healthy and fit to match her husband even by looks. Men whether they agree or no would not be happy with an unattractive partner. Based on these facts, it was preferred that women are a few years younger to their husbands.

Women usually have some decrease in fertility starting in their early 30s. It often takes a woman in her mid-30s or older longer to conceive than a younger woman. Women over age 35 may be less fertile than younger women because they tend to ovulate (release an egg from the ovaries) less frequently. Certain health conditions that are more common in this age group also may interfere with conception. These include Endometriosis (a condition in which tissue attaches to the ovaries or fallopian tubes), blocked fallopian tubes and Fibroids (non-cancerous growths in the uterus) The age-related increased risk of miscarriage is caused, at least in part, by increases in chromosomal abnormalities.

Dunson, D.B., et al. Increased Infertility With Age in Men and Women. Obstetrics and Gynecology, volume 103, number 1, January 2004, pages 51-56.

American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG). Age-Related Fertility Decline. ACOG Committee Opinion, number 413, August 2008.

This idea was conceived in olden days. Whether the norm started as early as 10^th century in India, I am not able to give the Christian era. This choice was also made by the so called elderly people way back based on observing the birth of abnormal children to older woman. Here abnormal means the birth of children with congenital malformations, dysmorphism, probably children with various syndromes for which we have names now as Down syndrome, Turner syndrome, Edward, Patau, and several others which are identified now because of the advancement in the field of genetics.

In those olden days in India, whenever people noticed such abnormal children being born to older women, the practicality of having few healthy offspring by the menopausal time was of prime concern. The primeval society (not so literate) in the event of any untoward incidents like abortion or abnormal children always laid emphasis to the fact that the mistake lies in the female. This is again one of the reasons widowed women were not encouraged to have a remarriage. The system continued even if it was a young widow. That's a whole new issue altogether. Men were allowed to marry and continue with propagation of species. Though Mendelism and the basis of genetics were not clearly understood, people made assumptions based on practical wisdom and experiences.

With advent of advancement in science, understanding Mendelian segregation laws and assisted reproduction, birth of abnormal children is currently monitored. In Indian society, ancestor's choice of younger women in marriages to older man was never questioned. When youngsters came forward to ask questions, the previous generation did not have any scientific basis as answers. But the norms are followed in the basis of tradition. There was never a need to substantiate all age old tradition with a hypothesis, analysis and discussion to prove a point. This was conveniently ignored since it suited the patriarchal Indian society.

I have not mentioned as "men building careers while spouses are distracted at 40". In fact I have mentioned the reverse with men at 40 and younger wife. I have also tried to say either which way, sexual problems arise and that I do not find any reasoning in age old decision of the necessity of women being younger.

Advanced maternal age is 35 years according to statistics http://www.marchofdimes.com/professionals/14332_1155.asp

Indian society which is still in transition phase in understanding modern science prefers that their children are married and with offsprings by the age of 30. The trend is changing. But it will take a long time to pass.

Your reference to advancing paternal age with older men producing sperms with DNA damage is recent scientific evidence. The damage to sperm and ova can be analyzed by Preimplantation genetic diagnosis of sperm and oocyte / polar body. This fact was not even hypothesized when older Indian marriage system was conceived.