I will never work with anyone
who I know is financially corrupt
Shah Rukh, a couple of weeks after KBC began, there was a report in the HT that the show had plummeted. How do you respond to such things?
Obviously I was very angry and upset. I've a lot of friends within circles which matter for film, but I don't try to use it because it's not fair. People use and abuse these things. Once you start playing these games, you have to do it for the other side also. What happens is that one day they will start calling up on you. It's like the mafia. Media, politics it gets all very closely linked.
There's been a lot of talk about your proximity with the Gandhis and Mukesh Ambani, and what that means.
Yeah, which is stupid. I've known them for years, before I was a moviestar, at least the Gandhis. I've known the Ambanis since I was in Bombay. But since they broke up suddenly you think I am aligned to one of them. My children study in their school so I know Nita very well. She is the head of their school and you have to respect that. And she's a friend. She is also Juhi's very close friend who is my family friend. But I know Tina equally well. But you go home for one birthday they report it, they won't report the other one. I guess people are so used to their own cliques, they don't expect someone in my position not to have one as well. I have close friend cliques, or my kids' gang and that's what I'm happy with.
You've been in a pre-eminent space for years. Has a certain emptiness crept in? Are you looking for new horizons? What are your triggers?
There are no triggers, to tell you honestly. I've been working in this business long. If it can be called a trigger, one thing is, I think like a kid. I mean, we saw it just now, I'd wear a Superman costume and do something so silly at the age of 41. I find silliness to be the most intelligent thing in the world. I was reading that if you like Shah Rukh you are considered a jhalla. I'm not justifying how I am but I think the true measure of intelligence is when you start enjoying the silly things, when you don't look down upon silly things. I think what keeps me going is that I enjoy the simplest, small things of life. That keeps me going. The second thing is, I never get attached. I put a lot of effort in for a film, or now television, but I don't get attached to that. I need to be very clear in my head that if it succeeded, it was because of only one thing -- hard work, and if it failed, it was despite the hard work. I can't leave work and get a thought back it succeeded but I didn't work for it, or it failed, shit I should have worked harder. I just move on. I think the simplicity of my reason for working keeps me working. There is no complexity to it at all.
Of course there are issues like you need to earn the money. I've got a 70 member office which I need to keep running, so you play games within that, financial games, do whatever it takes to keep that running, that's the material part of what I do. Fortunately in the last 20 years that really has not been the difficult part.
You can't be unaware of the impact you make on the world. Does that ever intrigue you, as to what else you can do with it? You can walk through any door.
You know Shoma, I think what will happen is that if I take that too seriously, I'll lose the impact. I think I am impactful because I do everything. I don't think any actor will sit from nine in the morning, be in a harness, and do ten flying shots. Nobody. I do it with ease. I never make a big thing out of it. Even in terms of what I say and show in my films, or just in personal life --- I keep it simple. People sometimes say to me, Shah Rukh you are faithful to your wife, da na na na (mocking the inanity of the question). But aren't you supposed to be faithful? It's as simple as that. I don't find it special. It's not special at all. (Mocking again) "Oh, you are special, you play with your kids." So? Why should these things become special just because my work is of prominence, that too mainly because it's on a huge screen? And, of course, glamour is attached to it. I think my position of eminence remains eminent because I don't do anything special. I just take it as lightly as it comes. If you are talking about taking up a cause, I don't know, I don't see a cause that I can really be attached to. So I make people smile. That's the best I can do.
Delhi and Bombay represent a spectrum change in your life. Are you radically different from the guy you were? Are there aspects of yourself you have sloughed off?
No, I am exactly the same. I think I'm the same. Age has changed me a bit perhaps. I've lost some innocence; I think I've lost a lot of impatience. People who knew me 18 years ago say I've lost some of my edge. I've become diplomatic. I've often been told that honesty from someone in my position hurts. I've been made to understand that appreciation from a movie star like Shah Rukh Khan can matter more than to hear the truth from him. So I gauge that now. But it's not something I am unaware of. I know I do that at times. So yes, maybe I've lost a bit of edge. I used to fight a lot more, I used to beat up journalists a lot more...
I've heard about that --
But I haven't done that for a while. I go to a lot of places still, seminars, politicians' dinners, etc. where there will be one or two people who'll be nice to me on the face of it, but will bitch behind my back, or in the press. And I want to say, samne bol na, main tere ko batata hoon (why don't you speak up in front of me, and I'll show you). Because deep down inside I'm a Dilli ka goonda. Nobody realises that in Bombay because I don't even use the language of Delhi any more. I'm very courteous and nice and normally sweet. But I'm a Dilli ka goonda. I could not say a sentence like I just told you, without using a gaali. I've got into my share of fights, broken teeth, done my hockey fights, broken heads with bricks, been in jail. My mother's got me out of fights many times. But at the end of it all, you come to Bombay, and there's a side of you that nobody's seen. People now say, he's stylish, intelligent, etc. Nobody sees that basically I'm quite a cheapster from Delhi. The change is that now I just get angry for about 20 seconds, then I think, it's alright, it's alright. I have so much. Friends like Juhi send me messages saying, you tell us all to be patient. Stick to your things, don't get angry with people. They don't matter. You matter so much. I guess those thoughts come to your mind now and you ease yourself. But deep down, there's no radical change.
I've always had a lot of nervous energy, at least that's what they term it. I like working a lot, jumping a lot, talking a lot, playing with kids a lot, and I've always played sports. You know if suddenly somebody wants to play cricket, I'll get off and go. I don't get tired. I've always been like that. I used to sleep at 2 am, and now I sleep at 4 am. There's not much change in me.
Tell me about your parents. Your father was a freedom fighter, and a less worldly man than you seem to be. He ran the canteen at the National School of Drama. Your mother was more pragmatic, more canny. Were they different poles in your life? Did you chafe at your father's idealism? Have you consciously taken a different route?
Now that I've grown older, I feel I have the idealism of my father in thought and belief. I have an elder sister, she also points this out. I think that's what keeps me from doing the things we first began talking about. My father was a freedom fighter but he didn't use any connections to become successful. He was a lawyer, but didn't practice because he thought it was dishonest. He was an ma, llb, but all he did was run a little shop. At the nsd it was the canteen, but before that he ran a small shop behind Willingdon Hospital. We were even thrown out of our flat once for not paying rent. I have written of it as a funny memory in my book because that's how I saw it as a child. But it was a sad occurence. Freedom fighter, highly educated, the topmost people from Mohammad Yunus to Indira Gandhi knew him, liked him. And he never utilised any of that, he ran a tea stall. I call him the most successful failure in the world in my book. Very intelligent, very educated, very quiet — not quiet actually, he talked a lot to us. What my father was to me is how I am with my kids. A friend, a teacher, but always fun. Very attractive personality, very good looking man, 6'1, very soft-spoken, with a great sense of humour, which I think I have. He was a little acidic and sarcastic — mine's a little over the top. But we are similar. Whereas my mother — because my father died early of cancer, and because he could not earn as his other friends did — my mother realised that to bring up her children and give them an education worthy, perhaps, of her husband, she needed to become more material. Make more money. After his death, she made sure she got an oil agency. She died trying to bring us up. She died in very difficult circumstances. She wouldn't have died if she hadn't worked so hard, I'm very clear on that. She was just 48 or 47. So I've seen both those sides.
I think my sister became idealistic like my dad, and she wasn't well after their deaths. But I realised the worthiness of being like my father, and the practicability of being like my mother. Things taught by my mother would include: first be in a position of choice, then make the right choices. My dad would be — just do only the right thing. So it's a combination. I'd say, I've got the honesty of my dad, and the more practical side of my mother. So I'm honestly practical, or a practically honest kind of a guy.
Your sister has been unwell since their death?
Yes, my sister suffered a lot from their death. I suffered because of their death. Everybody's parents die, everybody suffers, so it's not special to me. But I was 15 when my dad died, and 25 when my mother did. And I had a sister who was not well at all. Lala. She's much better now, but she'll never be fully well. Beautiful girl — physically and mentally, again an ma, llb. But no good. After my father died, she got very shocked. Psychiatry wasn't so big then, it took us about four or five years to find help. Then it took five - six years for her to get very close to her mom, and then her mom died, so she was really shattered. Medically termed, she had a potassium imbalance. Physically, she started going very wrong. By the time she came here to Bombay, she was really unwell. It took time for me to earn enough — during Dil Wale Dulhaniya I took her to a doctor in London. Now, she's all right. Matlab, she'll never be fully all right, but she's better than what she was. She lives with me. And my sister reminds me everyday that I cannot have a life like my father's. But I cannot do what my father didn't teach me to do either. So I think I am an honest wheeler-dealer. I believe in opportunity. I was taught by my dad that waqt ki choti age hoti hai. Time is a lady, and if you have to catch her hair, you have to face her and catch it.
Shah Rukh, you have had a foot in two worlds, so you might know how to deal with your wealth. See it in perspective. But what about your children? When you can afford everything, is it a struggle to know what you will give and not give them? What rules do you use? How do you stop them from being privileged brats? How do you foster empathy?
I give a lot of things to a lot of people because I can afford to. I have two logics for this and both of them are diametrically opposite. But that's not to say they are wrong. Both could be working. I am a giver by nature, of material things. On KBC when I give a watch, it is not a gimmick. It's not been worked out by anyone. TAG Heur has not been roped in as a sponsor. It is not paying me for these watches. They are my personal watches. Yes, I know that if I gift out all of them, they'd have to give me another one to wear, because they want me to wear it. So I gift all of them.
As for my kids, when they ask for something, I believe they deserve to have it. But my wife is more pragmatic. She has lots of middle class values. If suppose Mohan (his personal guard) is to travel with me, I'd like him to travel first class. He's been with me for seventeen years. I love him. I know he'd enjoy the experience. But my wife is like, no, neither will he -- or maybe he can -- but the kids won't. Now we have come to an understanding: club class. She was pushing for economy. I could not travel ever to a foreign country until I became an actor, because my parents could not afford to send me. But if they could have, they would have. I can, so I would like to. But my wife -- we go to Hemly's and we are given twenty pounds to buy toys, which is okay, I suppose. But on the sly, I cheat on my wife. I buy my kids anything that they want. I am a sports lover. So if they want cricket, I'll set up a pitch in the house. In their own way, that's what my parents did for me. My father would take us to a pitch, or my mother would call up the Firoz Shah Kotla grounds and say, ten boys are coming to play… So I try to do the same. I am so childlike that most of the things they like, I like as well. So I share it with them. But I don't spoil them. There is a huge control over that. But if you ask my wife, she will say, Shah Rukh spoils them. I guess all fathers do that. They feel guilty that they don't spend too much time with the kids, so they make up with presents. I am a bit like that. I make up with material goods.
But I haven't taught my kids that it's a dog-eat-dog world. It's a rat race. Money is the most important thing in life. I've never taught them that. As a matter of fact, I want them to have a very normal upbringing, just like I had. Only, I want them to have their parents around for longer… You know, a lot of people think I'm a smart guy. Nobody thinks I am intelligent. They don't know I am intelligent. They say, he's got the gift, he can talk. But the values I give to my kids are very clearly that of an intelligent man, not of a smart guy. I don't tell them to be a smart ass. It could be anything -- from being nice to the people that work for you, or with you, to saying sorry to them if you have asked for a glass of water. I never let my children yell out to the servants. Apart from that, to give you an example -- one day I was going in a car with special security etc, and sometimes the cops stop you. Then they realize the window is blackened because there is special permission or whatever, and they let you go. So one day my son was sitting in the car. He wasn't wearing a belt, the cops stopped us, looked inside, saw me, and said, sorry sir, and let us go. A few days later, my son was alone with the driver and the same thing happened. And he turned around and told the cop, I am Shah Rukh Khan's son. He had to go back and apologize to that cop. He had to sit in the car, drive back on his own, find the guy, and say, I'm sorry, it was a mistake, I should not have said it. I was brought up by my dad like that. I don't reprimand my children ever. I never shout at them or my wife. I have never raised my voice at anyone in my family. They can't fool around with their mom like they do with me. But somehow they know I am very strict in a strange sense.
Yesterday, I think these boys were rude to the maid. I didn't tell them to go and say sorry. I just explained to them what it means to be a servant in somebody's house, and what it means to be rude to someone who cannot be rude back to you; not because she can't be, but because maybe she will lose her job and maybe she can't afford to do that. So you have an unfair advantage. Are you going to fight a fight in which you have an unfair advantage? They said, no, so I said, then you decide what your heart tells you, and go say sorry to her. I'd do that. My heart would feel better. They did that. When I asked my son later, did you say sorry? He said, ya, but don't talk about all that heart and all. Should I have pushed it further? No, I think you can let it go at that. I know it's embarrassing to get into matters of heart, he's just a nine-year old.
See, I don't have rules. I think I'm the kind of person who doesn't have to make rules for them to be followed in his office, or in his house. I think I bring in an atmosphere where my children, and the guys who work with me, try to impress me because I love them so much. They really like to impress me. I trust people a lot. And very few people have broken my trust. I think nobody's broken my trust. And I think most of people around me understand that.
It's quite intriguing. When I was researching you, I got two very different versions of you. One said you are smart, calculating, guarded, clever. You think really fast, and you are always figuring what to say to suit the person you are talking to. The other said you are an impulsive, giving guy. A muh phat – you say anything that comes to mind. You have a great instinct for emotion. But you are like Krishna. You give yourself generously to people then you disappear, leaving them hankering for you. Which one is truer?
Both versions are quite close to me. See, if I am with you Shoma, I am yours. I do so many things and I want to do so much more -- but I need to be 100% there to make it happen. If I am doing a film with you, you'll think I am your best friend, I'll make you comfortable, I'll make you laugh, I'll never make you have stress, you'll say, oh god, I wish I could only work with Shah Rukh. But when I'm finished with you, I'm gone. I'm working with someone else. If I came back to you, I won't be able to give him that. It does not mean I have lost love for you, I am giving, but I cannot give in two different places at the same time because then it becomes 50-50. So I give my 100% and I move on, and I come back to you when I am working. So a lot of my friends, like Yash Chopra, say, yaar tu baat nahi karta hai – but it's not that I don't love you, I'm just not social.
About the rest, yes, I think I have an instinct for emotion. I think I'm an actor because I know which emotion to tap in what person. So yes, I never get the tone wrong. If you ask me funny questions, I'll give you funny answers. You are asking me serious questions, so I am engaging seriously. If you ask silly stuff, I'll answer at that level. I always know what tone to use. I think the only time I have ever been at a loss for tone was with this senior journalist from the Indian Express. Sweet, grey-haired, very senior. She was talking to me like, "beta, this, beta that…" -- asking me all these questions. Suddenly she says, (mimicking) "Acha, are you homo?"
I was so shocked. Because she was like a mother, and she was chatting with me like this. I was quite taken aback. That was the only time I've been at a loss of words, as to what tone to speak with her.
So what did you say to her?
Nothing, I said we could go find out. We can go to a hotel. She said, "What?" I said there is a little hotel down the road, we can go and find out. She got a little offended. She said, 'Mujhe meri beti ne bola poochhne ke liye.' I had another joke, you can ask your daughter, we can figure this out, but I just kept quiet.
Sometimes some really stupid people come and talk to me, so then I just say things to create a bit of controversy. The other day this little slip of a girl came and said, "You've done a music video before KBC. So does it change your image of being like a cool, hip guy?" I said, "No, I'm sexy, I'm cool, I'm hip, I'm handsome, there's no discussion about it."
What else can you say!
Yeah. A lot of them come. They really don't know what they should ask. Some say really strange things. Earlier I used to get very angry. I was like, "You know who you're talking to? Don't you have any respect?" But now I just smile. If I smile during an interview on television, it means I'm having fun. I'm laughing.
You are a superstar, Shah Rukh. You can walk through any door, be anyone. Yet you allow yourself to be seen in such shallow spaces. Subhash K. Jha interviews, marriage performances, you call yourself a performing monkey, a capitalist pig…
I don't see Subhash K. Jha. I don't talk to him. I hate him. I've never liked him. I haven't spoken to him in two and a half years. I don't give interviews to even Khalid Mohammed, though he's a friend. See, I'll tell you what, Shoma, when somebody asks me something which I can't explain because I believe their intelligence level does not match mine, what can I do? You have to understand what I mean when I say I am a performer. I do not dance at weddings. If you are intelligent enough to understand, I will explain, but if a Subhash K. Jha says, (mimicking in falsetto) "Eh Shahrukh, you were dancing at a wedding," I'll say, **** off, yes, I was. So to answer your question, I do perform at weddings. But it is very difficult to afford what I demand. You have to do it like a show, it has to be in an area where nobody drinks and eats, it will start at 9 pm and end at 11.30 pm, the stage will be 30 by 40 feet, we will make our entries, we will not chat with anyone, we will not eat your food, we will not take pictures with your daughter or daughter-in-law, unless we personally want to. We will come, perform, and we will go away.
It's a scale thing.
Yes. A scale thing. And very few people can afford it. A Mittal can. I don't dance at like shaadi ka sangeets. Unless they are close friends. Like an Adi Chopra. What was the second thing you said?
About setting yourself up as an unabashed capitalist. You are, in a way, the face of a new materialist mood in the country. But do you have doubts about the directions in which the country is headed? What do you want your life to speak for?
See, I know a lot of places where I think we are not headed the right way. There are two ways to respond. One, I jump into the thick of things like maybe Tehelka has. Have that kind of guts and balls. But all of us are not like that. The second way is to say, I can't take the world on, but can I change myself? Can I make sure I'm above board? So that if a good minded, good thinking person from my country meets me, he can say, here's a good guy, educated, intelligent, leading life above board. Yes, I do believe you should earn money, should live well. I have a bmw, a huge house, but it doesn't have to be a bmw. When I tell youngsters to be like me, I truly believe that — and I'm not saying this because it's an interview, and I wouldn't say it to a Subhash K. Jha or a Khalid because they wouldn't understand — I truly believe I am doing things I think an Indian should do. You should try and earn, you should work hard, and in your own way let the world know what India's about through your persona. I think if each of us did just that, we'd be okay. But I don't have a cause. I've been invited to speak at Davos, but I'll never go. I don't have a cause. I don't have time for a cause.
Is being Islamic an important part of your identity? Have recent events forced you to think more about it?
I'm not an atheist, I am a believer in God, and I don't think it is great fashion to be an atheist. I am Islamic by birth, so I know that a bit better, though I've been brought up by Hindus most of my life, and I was fascinated by Ram Lila and things. All that hasn't changed, but as I've grown older, and I see what's happening to Islam around the world, I think it's important that even without full knowledge of Islam, I need to be very clearly standing for the goodness of Islam. AR Rahman sent me a message once saying you are an ambassador for Islam. I think I truly am. I follow the tenets of Islam — peace, goodness, kindness to mankind. And I'm a normal guy. I think that is what Islam tells you to be.
Are there things about it that worry you?
Of course, there are actions by people who think they are Islamic, or are Islamic, that are very disturbing. But I think we are too quick to classify. She's a Bengali? That is why she is like this. We like classification because it makes us more secure, the fear goes out. I stand for what a modern Muslim should be. I am married to a Hindu, my children are being brought up with both religions, I read namaz when I feel like. But I would not like to believe in four marriages even if my religion allows it. Lots of other things too have lost relevance, but that doesn't mean I'm questioning the Quran. I'd like people to know that Islam is not only about being a fanatic, or radically different, angered person, or one who only does jehad. I'd like people to know that the actual meaning of jehad is to overcome one's own violence and weakness. If need be, overcome it violently.
When I pray, the closest I come to a face are the faces of my mother and father. And my dogs also. I love my dog — Chewbacca. Is that blasphemous? I don't know. But when I close my eyes, go to the terrace sometimes, or anywhere — I don't need a position or a place to pray — I feel a sensation in my heart, or the area near my heart, and I think God resides there. It's as silly or simple or profound as that.
When you lost your parents, who became the signposts of your life?
Nobody. There were friends, an aunt, my sister. But nobody was anchor or mentor. That's why I came to Bombay. In fact, that's why I got married. I thought if I get married, there will at least be somebody with me. This is why I think I'm a little yuppie. I have no culture. I lost my parents too soon to develop a culture.
So what did you reach into for strength?
Work. That's it. I work as a matter of living. I am diseased as far as work is concerned, it's not just workaholism, it's beyond that. It's not nice. I overwork, I take up 95 percent of opportunities that come my way. I don't let anything go. I'm always full of energy. I work around the clock. I don't need to. I am genuinely very well-to-do now. Even before KBC, I've had a successful career. I have beautiful children, I have a good wife who I'm faithful to, I have a good house, a secure family. I have a good business, in that I can make films. So I have a hunar. And I can act a bit. I am very clear that I am okay. But I always feel, shit, I'll do this also. It's not just about money. People think I only do things for money, but no, it's just that I can't let an opportunity go. I have to work. Obviously I enjoy everything I have and don't want to lose it, but if I lost everything I have today, I'd be okay. I am not really attached to any of it. If I didn't have this car, I'd just take a three-wheeler and be fine. But I'd need work. Even if it was just to build a mousetrap.
Of course, money is important. I hate taking money from others. I hate public money, investors. This might sound greedy, but it has to be my own money. I have a 70-strong office to maintain. I've built a cancer ward in my mother's name. Now I want to build a free hospital, but I want to do it all with my own money. So I'll dance at a wedding. Or take on KBC. Or do a world tour. Also I'm a little insecure because I lost my parents so suddenly. So it's a whole mix. And the best part about this whole way of life, this very vigorous, honestly hardworking, trying-to-take hold-of-every-opportunity-that-comes-my-way kind of life, is that it doesn't give me any moment to feel sad. I like that. If I am alone, I'm sad. It's been many years now. I lost my parents a long time ago, so logically I should not miss them. Physically, I've even forgotten what they look like. So, is it them? I don't know. But I get sad. I have everything in life. And it's as normal as a life can be. Yet, when I am alone, I feel sad. So I work. Round the clock.
Apart from the loss of your parents, has there been, or is there anything else that makes you vulnerable?
Only my children. That's all. Because I'm anti-social, I don't get affected by people, and because I've been very successful, I think I'm infallible, or at least, that nothing can go wrong for me. That may be misplaced. But when I see them sleeping, I get very worried. They are so small. Their fingers are small, their nose is small, their eyes are small… It's the only thing that makes me vulnerable. It has mellowed me. There are times I want to take on people, be rude to someone who thinks he or she is powerful, but normally now I just smile it away. I don't want to get into some kind of situation, I don't want to go to jail, I don't want to die. I've never been scared of death, I've seen it very often and I'm ok with it. And I've been very reckless in the past. I've done stunts, I've hurt myself, had five surgeries. But now I'm petrified of death. I'm going to give up smoking because of them.
Because the only way I can be a better parent than mine is by living longer. When my kids become a little bigger, maybe I'll become a little more reckless again, more fun, pick some fights.
Everyone I spoke to about you said your stardom really matters to you. Is there anything you would risk it for?
No, my stardom doesn't matter to me, because I take it for granted. I don't think it can be taken away at all. It's a way of being. Only the work matters.
It matters that because I'm a star now, I need to keep excelling and doing better things. But most of the time, I come to an understanding that I only have that much talent. And I'm the only actor to say that. Everybody else talks so seriously about their damn acting. But let me tell you seriously they are no better than I am. Everybody has a limit to their talent. To say I'm a perfectionist and all is all balls. I've been saying it for the last eight years, that I only have five expressions. At least I am an intelligent enough actor --
Come on Shah Rukh, you can't make a virtue of that!
I'm telling you! I've had some of the biggest hits in the country. I've done some really nice films like Swades, and I will continue to do so. But not entertaining is considered acting at times, and serious-minded people think it's tomfoolery to do a song and dance and romance a girl. But you forget that each color forms entertainment. Sometimes it needs to be white and quiet, and sometimes it needs to be orange and loud. But you need to take each one seriously. Cynicism is not artistic. Sadness is not artistic. You can be flamboyant, happy go lucky, look nice, be upfront and still be creative. Creativity does not mean brooding, black, sad, cynicism, dark, quiet, few words, kurta pajama, khadi, the sound of wind, and vast landscapes.
You are too intelligent Shah Rukh to be operating on just two spectrums like this. You are talking extremities.
No, it's just that I have -- the dichotomy is, that I think I am intelligent and creative, but I don't hide under the other extreme --
But do you give it that kind of intensity?
I do, but I don't give it the words. See, I can very seriously talk about roles. I mean if you ask me, how did you play Don, I can give you a full spiel about Don which sounds really, really intelligent. I can talk about motivation, different colors, talk about the rotundity of the character, tell you about existentialism and acting, and how I have gone through the catharsis to develop this character and give it form. But that's all bullshit. You know, MF Husain and I had lunch one day, and he said, We've both corrupted Indian art and Indian cinema, that's why it's famous all over the world. If we hadn't corrupted them, Indian art and Indian cinema would never be famous.
Apart from your own work, what films have you liked recently?
I don't watch films. I get corrupted. When I see a good film and it doesn't do well, or I see a bad film, and it does well, it confuses me. I saw Rang De Basanti. It was very well done. I was supposed to do a part in it. It was lying with me for about a year. I was shocked by the fact that I couldn't read into the script. I just didn't see any of it, didn't spot how Rakeysh was going to translate it. It made me realise I don't read well. I saw Krissh. I liked the novelty. I didn't like Dhoom 2.
Why?
It lacked sensibility. Adi is a very close friend. But I told him he'd lost grip. I've made really tacky films, and I've made some really nice films, and some completely in-your-face commercial films. But there is a certain amount of sensibility that follows. Even conservative things, like you don't vibe a girl romantically if you've shown her dad is in the house. Small example, very old fashioned, but I wouldn't do it. The audience and I can't be knowing that the dad is at home while this guy is vibing her in the house.
I thought you were a modern, metropolitan man!
Yes, but I am very conservative. I have this theory that my films do well across the world because though there's enough titillation there for men, particularly Islamic men, around the world, the values are still old fashioned enough for them to take their wives to watch.
Did you like Guru?
I haven't seen it, but I read a write up that said Guru was like me. It is exactly what I am, a nobody from nowhere, an outsider who becomes big.
To switch track, Shah Rukh, you seem to talk more about your son, less about your daughter.
Like I said, I'm conservative, so I don't talk about my daughter. It's not that I'm not proud of her. In fact, I'm more proud of her in a certain way than even my son perhaps. But I'm shy of women. It's very shocking, but even with her friends, I can't play for too long. I think girls should be left on their own. And I've got this thing — I've never seen the inside of my wife's cupboard, or her handbag, or her drawers, or whatever. I've been married since '91, and I can't do it. I think a woman should have a lot of privacy. I'm like that even with my daughter.
That's strange, given your closest friends are women, and working ones at that.
Yes. Farah, Juhi, even Kajol. I don't have too many male friends, and my male friends are also not very macho. Like Karan and everyone. But they are more Gauri's friends actually. Karan is more Gauri's friend than mine. It's very strange. I'm more comfortable in the company of girls. But I like them to have their privacy.
Is that why, despite your charisma, there's an asexuality about you?
It's not asexuality. I'm just shy of women. I wouldn't know how to pick up a lover. If that's the right word to use.
It shows your innate bias — "pick up" a lover (laughs).
No, no, I'm just saying I wouldn't know how to develop a lover. I mean, I think my lover would be, in my heart and mind, another wife, and then I'd be really Islamic (laughs). But really, I don't know how to go about proposing or, how do you say it, propositioning… Sometimes girls say they like me. I don't know what to say, so before she thinks I'm foolish or asexual, I just say something funny. The best way to kill romance is to joke. And, again it's that conservative thing — I can't make the first move. I don't think the girl should make the first move. It's not that girls who do are unattractive, it's just that I wish I had said this to her rather than the other way around. So I'm like sort of left alone, sort of left without lovers.
Gauri couldn't have done better (laughs).
Yes, I'm very conservative. Actually, to the extent of being — sorry to say, it's a wrong thing to say — Islamically conservative maybe (laughs).
I'm a Pathan.
Chauvinistic also?
I think so. I mean, I've mellowed now. But I'm very possessive about my own people. Or used to be. And I don't like people who do drugs. I've never told my son anything rude, but I've told him if you do drugs, or your friends do drugs, I'll behead you. Drinks is okay, smoking is okay, but no drugs. And I don't like men making lewd remarks at women. I'm not very cool really. Like I find it strange if somebody tells me this guy is having an affair. I'm like, aren't you married? My first reaction is that.
Would you stop being friends with people who were having an affair?
If I knew both husband and wife, yes, I would. Because I wouldn't be able to tell on him, but I'd be uncomfortable in her presence. So I'd move away.
What about financial corruption? Are you comfortable with friends who are financially corrupt?
As friends, I have no problem. As a friend what you do is none of my business. I'll never pass a judgment. If you tell me right now that you are a nymphomaniac, that's ok. If you tell me, you know what Shah Rukh, I steal, I'm a kleptomaniac, I'm okay with that. Everybody does what they have to do. And to be honest, a lot of people I meet, including myself, have things that in other people's eyes appear corrupt. But you cross those barriers depending on what your lifestyle is. Is it corrupt to have a Luis Vuitton bag for ten lakh rupees lying on a coffee table? I think it's corrupt – given that people don't even have food to eat. But I do it. Of course I get it free because I am Luis Vuitton's ambassador, but it's corrupt anyway. I have it. So it's always a question of what line you decide to cross. People can't afford a house, I have a mansion. It's a strange thing, you know. There is always going to be disparity. Disparity even in thought. So what may be corrupt to you may not be corrupt to me. And everybody has risen from a state of affairs that may be different from yours. So I'm not justifying it, but I'm saying, I think I shouldn't question it.
But yeah, I'll never deal professionally with anyone I know to be corrupt. If I know you're earning by doing x,y,z crooked thing, I will not deal with you. I'm very clear. That's partly the reason why I only work with friends, because I know where the money is coming from, I know who the family is, I know I can sit down in there house and there is no corruption there. Or they are as corrupt as I am, which is okay. That much is okay. I can deal with Adi, I can deal with Karan, I can deal with Farah, I can deal with Aziz Mirza, I can deal with Juhi Chawla, I can keep on doing my films with them. Outsider means I have to figure out people, and I'm like, shit, I don't have time for this. People offer me loads of money to do loads of things. I'm becoming a bigger brand every day and in my own small, strange way I'll say, you know I've heard they've had income tax raids for that so I won't be participating in that. Or, I heard these guys were dealing in cocaine, I don't want to be a brand ambassador of that company. I don't know how to say no to their face, but I find an excuse and get out. But I'll never deal with it, that's something I'm very clear about. And if I've dealt with someone and I find out that person is corrupt, I very quietly get out of their lives. In the past, I've found out that I've performed for people who were not above board and I did not like it.
To return to films, can you name a film you would really have liked to make?
Life is Beautiful. It's Sad, yet hilariously funny, and vivid. That's the film I'd love to make. You know, I've always had this desire to be able to do different films. When I first came to Bombay, I had come from a background of theatre. I thought I was going to work in very serious, art house cinema. But those directors — don't name them in your interview — really spooked me. They'd say, (mimicking sarcastically) Shah Rukh, I want you to touch your hair as if it's not hair, but a possibility. Or, I want you to express shock as if you've seen your mother naked for the first time. Or again, have you seen a wave? I want you to emote like a wave breaking on a shore. But not the first wave, not the second wave, the seventh wave. A wave that has exhausted its potency. I was like, **** off. This was just such dishonest stuff. So then I started working with new directors I trusted — Karan, Adi, Farah. I thought we'd do different, intelligent cinema, not this boring, dishonest stuff. But it's never worked that way. They all started making my brand of cinema. Because of my energy, I think! To be honest, I think my stardom gets in the way. I'm not being pompous about it. I'm just saying that a lot of people who spend that Rs 150 rupees want to see a bit of singing-dancing, jumping-shouting, and over-the-top acting, which I do. It's not that I can't do otherwise.
So which of your films have been milestones in your own head?
Baazigar was very interesting, I love being the bad guy. Don also. I loved that line in the film – when I call her a "junglee billi." I live for lines like that. I liked Kabhie Haan, Kabhie Naa — Kundan Shah. Darr. Dilwale Dulhaniya was of course a turn-around film. Kuch Kuch Hota Hai was special for a personal reason. Because I was able to make Karan a director, because his father didn't want to make a film with him. Devdas I enjoyed. Phir Bhi Dil Hai Hindustani was very special for me. Very, very special. It was the first film from our company, and when it flopped, we were very disturbed. Me, Juhi, and Aziz cried for 10 days straight. And we never recovered from it. So much so, our company never took off after that. We made others. Chalte Chalte. Asoka. They all flopped. Personally, we're still great friends. We meet twice or thrice a week, but I think somewhere we just lost faith in each other. Something has gone. We'd rather not go there. It has bad memories…
So now, I work with Karan and Farah and Adi. I trust them. We're on the same page. We're very clear about our reasons for doing things. We are not lying to each other. We know it's a 30 crore film. We need to make that money back. So yes, the clothes are going to be Louis Vuitton, whether you like it or not. And yes, there will be a little sensibility of an extra-marital affair but we cannot get into the depths of what happens in the hearts and minds of a couple. We can't deal with it so seriously. We are not unintelligent about this. We do it with a very calculating eye. We understand each other's corruptions.
But every year, I make money with some films, then I lose it on others that I just want to make. Like Paheli. I like offbeat films like Paheli. When I hear stories like that, I get very turned on. But everyone tells me that's not our kind of work.
Or take Om Shanti Om now. It's a silly film. But it will be a big hit film. Or again, maybe not. But it's my money and I've thought the story should be told, and I wanted to back Farah, not just because she's a friend, but she's the only woman director in the world that makes commercial Hindi cinema. All other women directors make very serious cinema. I like Farah's wackiness and manner. So I wanted to support it.
To tell you the truth, Shoma, I'm little detached about all this. Films should just entertain, they are not meant to be life-changing.
Are you saying people are not changed by the books and films they see in their lives?
Yes. Life is Beautiful was a beautiful film. But it's not changed my life. It was great fun, it was really sad, I cried a bit. But that was it. I don't think movie-watching should be a life-altering experience. I think life should be a life-altering experience. So when people tell me they've seen Dilwale Dulhaniya 65 times and their life is completely changed, I'm like, come here, give me a hug, because I don't think your life should have changed. A lot of people write some really nice things to me. A guy came to see me recently, a 52-year old man who was paralyzed and he thinks he got revived because he saw my songs for two years in bed! I am asked to go hospitals because doctors tell me white blood cells come up when they see my movies. I find it strange. I don't find it real. I do it. I respect somebody telling me this. But I can't understand it. And I can't start believing that I can make a film that can change people's lives. If I start believing it, I think my work will start to look bullshit.
And that's where I differ from a lot of actors. And that's why when people start talking to me very seriously about their movies, I don't work with them. They come and say, Shah Ruhk bhai, jo ho raha hai is duniya mein, and I'm like, **** off! Who the hell are you that you're going to change the world with two and a half hours of celluloid? Don't take it so seriously. Just write a story that means something to you. That's why I end up not working with lot of very serious directors. I'm like, where are you from man? Get back to work. Wasn't it all supposed to be make-believe? I think if I show a street child becoming the god of this country, it's more inspiring than showing their suffering.
That fantasy?
Yeah, that changes his life. Even if it is something like he just wants to wear dark glasses like me. I think that is more life-altering than if I'd made a film on the ghurbat and sadness that this boy is facing, and why aren't we doing anything about it? And to be very honest, what have I ever done for the poor that I should start talking about it in my movies? I really don't think it is wrong to say that I am quite a capitalist pig. Why have those double standards? You know I meet so many socialist guys -- they all drink Black Label and smoke 555s, grow a beard, and talk of socialism. Where is socialism? Just in the talk in these smoke-filled rooms. Which smell of whisky. I've had a lot of talks like this. I've done it in my theatre days, in my university days, in film people's houses. But there is a smell of whisky and smoke in socialism which I find very strange. So, I believe that if I can earn enough money, if I can help others without having to ask for help myself -- that is the greatest socialist activity I can do.
You have a frenetic fan following across the globe. Have you understood your chemistry with them?
Ya. I think a lot of older women, the mother types, love me. I think now slowly the girl types don't find me hip enough, but they understand my language. I don't think too many macho men like me. I think I'm too much of a dandy, and I think half of them think I'm gay. Intelligent people are fans of Aamir Khan, so I know most of my fans don't fall from that category (laughs). But to speak seriously, people think I'm an easy-going, nice person. They just love me. They think I am a part of their lives. The best part of my stardom is that it doesn't come in the way of people liking me. I am their friend. I've been told I don't invoke enough awe, I've been told I am not enigmatic enough. But I don't think all that is required to be a star. Germany, France, Afghanistan, Turkey, Poland, Japan, Morocco, now China — there are strange places in the world where they love me. In Germany, they tell me we have a button for everything. For going up, coming down, driving a car. But we don't have a button for crying. We've become cold people. You are our button for crying. We put your movies on, and we cry.
When you enter these hysterically charged spaces, do you slip into some other mode? Does something happen?
I just love crowds. I want to sit down and be with them. I just want to walk into the middle and hold everyone. My security doesn't allow me but I know nobody is going to hurt me. I love it. I love being a star. When I say this, a lot of people take it materially, but I really like it. Have you ever screamed for anyone? Have you ever torn your clothes off for someone?
No.
Me neither. But I like it because suddenly a girl screams for me, any girl, or old men even… Day before yesterday, while I was doing KBC, a 57-year old man from Indore just got up and started howling. It's never happened on the sets apparently. I was shocked. He said, I want to read a poem, and I want to hug you. I have come from Indore only to hug you. And he started crying, and we had to stop the show. I don't mind that. I don't mind one lakh people tearing the shirt off my back. I'm comfortable with that. I'm uncomfortable in a party with 10 people, drinking red wine or whisky, and just chatting. I don't know what to say. I'm completely ill at ease, and I get very uncomfortable.
Tell me, Shah Rukh, when Hrithik Roshan first came on the scene, a lot was made of it. Did this shake you?
Yes, that was depressing. That was depressing. It was not depressing because Hrithik was doing well, I mean he's a very close friend now, and he always was. His father was the first person I worked with when I came to Bombay. What disturbed me was the way everyone wrote me off. That was also the time I was undergoing my operations. I was unwell. I felt really vulnerable. Also, until about five years ago I didn't accept that I am a superstar. Every review, every remark in the press used to anger and bruise me. I was frenzied about wanting more fans, a piece of the north, a piece of the south. It's only recently that I've started to feel secure.
Finally, Shah Rukh, does your house speak of your personal taste? Is this your aesthetic?
Well, my wife has chosen and bought all this furniture. But I like space, big spaces, lots of space to walk around in, I like openness. That's my aesthetic. And everything should have clean lines. I don't like round things. I like square things. So most things here are square. And I like modern things. I don't like old, vintage, curved things. I like glass, I like metal, I like cities, I'm not a nature person. Nature doesn't do much for me. I'm okay anywhere, but I'm essentially an urban guy. I like tech. I like my laptop, videogames, TV. I'm very, very urban that way, but I don't want a Ferrari or a Mercedes or a BMW or whatever. I'm ok with whatever there is. The bigness of the house I think is a personal reason – it's because we had not had a house for a long time. This is the only house I have.
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