KJo killed off Anushka in Ae Dil Hai Mushkil for not loving Ranbir - Page 17

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Posted: 4 months ago

Originally posted by: Clochette

Such interesting reads here about a movie KJo made because of his own messed love life and his insecurities since childhood.

I supposed that his crush on Fawad would bring him to showcase the insecurities about fidelity that predominently exist in a homosexual relationship - much more than in heterosexual ones. But then, he deliberately chopped scenes with Fawad to appease the Censerboard because of the ban. Karan isn't - imo - a courageous man in real life.

The "unrequited" love theme became - in my feeling - a glorifying of his own unfulfilled love and - of course - Anushka's character has to die as his love-interest in real life did (eventually) reject Karan's kind of love.

What SRK did, had been something very interesting: he turned something meant as negatively expressed in the movie into something that one could also regard as something positive for oneself...no one can touch at the purety of your love for someone as it is up to you to decide about the nature of your love.

I really, really wonder, if Karan just said to ShahRukh: "could you do a small appearance in the movie and tell your thoughts about unrequited love?"

If you look at Karan's first 5 movies (all done with SRK), he showcased another view on love and relationships...

So, what happened with Karan after 2010??? It was the time when he got involved with Sidharth and Alia, preparing to launch Varun and them in SOTY. He had - after allusions in previous movies -  made an openly gay character he wanted SRK to play (quite insensitive, imo, as SRK got Mannat wall graffitis and gossipy inunedos of being gay/bisexual since years). Interestingly, Karan starts the movie with the gay character (former Dean of the college) on the death bed...

His crush on Fawad is why I think he didn't cast him as the lead. Or SRK for that matter. Both of those men were dream men for KJo who he had a thing for at one time or another and so they could not play him by proxy. Fawad had to be the object of desire and since this film could not showcase a gay protagonist, he had to be Anushka's object of desire and instead of her being the one to hopelessly love and not be loved back, the character of Ayan exists instead as KJo's audience surrogate. We know that KJo's female avatar is Kareena but for such a personal story, he needed a more ordinary and authentic representation of himself which means he cannot have an actress play himself. So Anushka cannot play that role and that's why Ayan's character must exist. And SRK or Fawad could not play Ayan/KJo because they are the Dream Boy, the prize for KJo, not Kjo himself.

So a third person is introduced in this love story which didn't exist in the original to make it a straight romance, which may also explain the problems with the script (especially as Aish, SRK, and others are introduced as well further convoluting the dynamics).

Now that you mention that there tends to be more casual cheating in homosexual relationships, at least between two gay men, I can see the character of Ali the DJ in such a role. Only in real life, he would not be cheating with women but with other men. It reminds me of the Tennessee Williams plays where all the over-the-top, histrionic female characters and their sexual appetites are instead based on Tennessee Williams himself as a gay man but those relationship dynamics are straightwashed with the gay man always genderbent into a woman to make it acceptable for the public.

I wonder if SRK agreed to do this cameo because he knew how personal this project was for Karan and felt he could not turn it down. He didn't do a cameo for Rocky Aur Rani which was less personal and Karan also admits that he did not have the strength to ask SRK to do another cameo after Brahmastra. Which I think is another inkling that their relationship is not as strong as it used to be. There were many rumors and innuendo about SRK and Karan as a couple so I wonder if that was something that also turned SRK off of Karan.

Was SRK supposed to play the Rishi Kapoor character in SOTY? I didn't know that. I know he was asked to do a cameo but refused but I didn't realize he would have had a significant role as Karan wanted. I don't blame SRK for saying no. Not for playing a gay character but playing the dean to all these young kids is really not that meaty of a role and would have SRK playing second fiddle to all beginners. It's one thing to play extended cameos for his contemporaries, like Karishma in Shakti: The Power, Sridevi in Army, or Rani in Saathiya, but why should he do these for three debuts who he has little to no connection with? 

I didn't realize SRK had been attacked with gay accusations before, minus the rumors about him and Karan. I can see that with his public persona and star image as a romantic hero that he would not be interested in such a role so I don't blame him. I admire Madhuri for playing a lesbian in part because it's so rare for a star of her caliber and prestige to openly play such a role and I was shocked at that, so I really can't see SRK or Salman or especially a male star do this. Women still get more leniency on gay/bisexual relationships in ways that male stars do not, especially in such a patriarchal society as India. I know Fawad got a lot of flack in the Desi community for playing a gay character in Kapoor & Sons so that was quite brave of him, especially considering he had just launched his film career in India.

Edited by RaniPreityAish - 4 months ago
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Posted: 4 months ago

Originally posted by: Clochette

Addition: After ADHM, Karan published his book (Jan 2017)...but somehow, I get the feeling that it didn't help as a therapy...neither the movie nor the book...

The book clearly did not help lol. And what's funnier, is that he goes on about how his friendship with Kajol failed in that book, so you'd think he would have gotten some closure about that by now since they're friends again but even in the latest KWK, he's dying to rehash that drama and Kajol flat out tells him no, she won't discuss it.


I keep hearing online that Twinkle was involved with Karan's dream guy in some capacity so he should have given her a cameo in the movie.

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Posted: 4 months ago

Originally posted by: RaniPreityAish

Perhaps she did not feel safe sharing this information with him. Based on how they had just gotten back together and his own history, he may feel she is trying to make him jealous or trying to do to him what he did to her.

He clearly knew by the end of the movie, based on your own words, that Ayan loved Alizeh so much so obviously he does figure it out. But clearly too late.

Was it trust or a lack of interest though? And there are many cheaters who know they can cheat as much as they want and the other will never leave them so they don't have to be held accountable for their behavior. He had already seen that he could cheat on her and she'd be angry and break up with him but eventually come back to him. I rewatched the scene where he tells Ayan that Alizeh has left him and he seems almost just as shocked as Ayan that it came to that point where she could finally leave him.

Saba knew Ayan was never going to care for her the way she cared for him. Alizeh learned this same lesson about Ali. The issue was not Ayan but the fact that Ali did not love her as much as she loved him, which is why she's done with romantic love because it has drained her of everything. And according to Kjo, it literally causes her cancer.

That is clearly what I was saying, no? All these inferences you are making about Alizeh not confiding in Ali are based on your own cognitive biases. NONE of those things were shown or even suggested.

 If I think that Ayaan's obsessive behaviour warped Alizeh's notion of romantic love, that is my cognitive bias. Even when we disagree whether jealousy is a litmus test of love or not, those are our cognitive biases speaking. The writing does not at all give us any view into their marriage barring one fleeting foreplay scene and two dialogues after the divorce. Even the jealousy scene was deleted.

What purpose does the divorce serve? She could very well have been a widow to show Ayaan and Alizeh closer in the end. No, it was to suggest that Ayaan was her perfect romantic love and dhe just didn't reciprocate. That makes KJo's justification of killing off Alizeh even more effed up.

Like thukrake mera pyaar mera inteqaam dekhegi.

This film is even more shitty than K3G eh. At least, that has repeat value.

Edited by Blueeeee - 4 months ago
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Posted: 4 months ago

I would like to get back the Karan of the turn of the century and early 2000s...and offering SRK a very well written mature love story between a man in his fifties and a woman in her forties (age gap around five to seven years).

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Posted: 4 months ago

Originally posted by: Blueeeee

That is clearly what I was saying, no? All these inferences you are making about Alizeh not confiding in Ali are based on your own cognitive biases. NONE of those things were shown or even suggested.

 If I think that Ayaan's obsessive behaviour warped Alizeh's notion of romantic love, that is my cognitive bias. Even when we disagree whether jealousy is a litmus test of love or not, those are our cognitive biases speaking. The writing does not at all give us any view into their marriage barring one fleeting foreplay scene and two dialogues after the divorce. Even the jealousy scene was deleted.

What purpose does the divorce serve? She could very well have been a widow to show Ayaan and Alizeh closer in the end. No, it was to suggest that Ayaan was her perfect romantic love and just didn't reciprocate. That makes KJo's justification of killing off Alizeh even more effed up.

Like thukrake mera pyaar mera inteqaam dekhegi.

This film is even more shitty than K3G eh. At least, that has repeat value.

You make it sound like I've been defending this film though when I've made clear multiple times that I think the writing was shoddy and the story badly narrated.

I've said that it was a mistake to have the character of Ali only be written to serve as an obstacle to Alizeh and Ayan's relationship and not flesh out the relationship between him and Alizeh. Alizeh would have made a better POV character but then KJo could not use Ayan as his avatar. 

I didn't think about making her a widow but what you said was likely KJo's thought process to make it seem like Alizeh is the bad guy for not loving Ayan back. And since she has to die for that, having two deaths in a row becomes too much.

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Posted: 4 months ago

Originally posted by: Clochette

I would like to get back the Karan of the turn of the century and early 2000s...and offering SRK a very well written mature love story between a man in his fifties and a woman in her forties (age gap around five to seven years).

What if you were to reverse the age gap? Make SRK the younger man and the woman five to seven years older than him?

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Posted: 4 months ago

That would work more in the Maya Memsaab style as with a fifty-year-old one (I suppose)...and SRK did that.

Personally, I won't oppose it, but I've a mindset formed by Western cinema, not Indian one...(would it be accepted?)... It certainly would depend on the story told...

Edited by Clochette - 4 months ago
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Posted: 4 months ago

Originally posted by: RaniPreityAish

You make it sound like I've been defending this film though when I've made clear multiple times that I think the writing was shoddy and the story badly narrated.

I've said that it was a mistake to have the character of Ali only be written to serve as an obstacle to Alizeh and Ayan's relationship and not flesh out the relationship between him and Alizeh. Alizeh would have made a better POV character but then KJo could not use Ayan as his avatar. 

I didn't think about making her a widow but what you said was likely KJo's thought process to make it seem like Alizeh is the bad guy for not loving Ayan back. And since she has to die for that, having two deaths in a row becomes too much.

Yes, I agree with you.

I am not saying you were defending it all. I am just reiterating ki our differences, few as they are, regarding this movie were because of the shoddy writing. So I think we lost each other a bit regarding Ali's lack of jealousy. I was justing bridging the gap.

Ayaan was the bad guy in the film (though KJo tried to glorify him), Ali could very well have been a bad guy but the writing around his character was perhaps two paragraphs long. Alizeh was crucified for exercising her autonomy even though she probably never got to completely recover from Ali's cheating in the first instance and never learned to read red flags. It's horrid.

The only person who hopefully ended up happy was the character who loved Ayaan but never got his love in return.

Edited by Blueeeee - 4 months ago
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Posted: 4 months ago

Originally posted by: Clochette

That would work more in the Maya Memsaab style as with a fifty-year-old one (I suppose)...and SRK did that.

Personally, I won't oppose it, but I've a mindset formed by Western cinema, not Indian one...(would it be accepted?)... It certainly would depend on the story told...

I would like to see him paired with Rekha, as you may have seen me post in other threads. She was paired with Akshay Kumar so I can't see why she couldn't be paired with SRK. But this pairing would have been more ideal in the late 90s/early 2000s imo.

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Posted: 4 months ago

Originally posted by: Clochette

I would like to get back the Karan of the turn of the century and early 2000s...and offering SRK a very well written mature love story between a man in his fifties and a woman in her forties (age gap around five to seven years).

Irrfan had the foresight to transition to this genre. Hope Shah does one opposite Tabu. She looks breathtaking these days